7 YEAR TRIBULATION?

[Retrobyter]

On 9/25/2019 at 8:50 PM, Uriah said:

Hi Retro

Yes the Christians heeded the words of Jesus and did not suffer the fate of the rest during the ensuing years and the carnage at the end.

But the Romans could NOT enter the Holy Place as everyone hearing Jesus would have understood Him-the Holy Place that is in the temple.....by the time the Romans came inside it was GONE!

Shalom, Uriah.

Look, you had said,

"Only as much as defying logic-Roman military cannot penetrate the temple due to guards/Jewish soldiers inside so they set it ablaze.  When the ashes cool and they enter and the HOLY PLACE was NO MORE!!! It is an impossible scenario for the interpretation you attempt, and you aren't the first."

I had said,

"You're forgetting the time sequence! The Roman presence that triggered the escape of the believers was in 66 A.D! The FIRE that destroyed the Holy Place wasn't until 70 A.D!"

You said,

"No, this doesn't change the fact that the Holy Place that Jesus spoke of was NO MORE."

Fooey. LOOK AT THE TIME! In 66 A.D., when the Romans FIRST came in force to Jerusalem, and fulfilled the signs necessary for the believers to escape, there indeed WAS a "Holy Place!" It wasn't burnt down until FOUR YEARS LATER IN 70 A.D!

It's not that complicated! And, quite frankly, you haven't given me an adequate resource that says otherwise! Just some spurious reference to a writer in 1859 A.D., I believe was the year.

My logic is intact. Simply go back and read the details of 66 A.D., NOT 70 A.D!

(BTW, don't go setting up a strawman hypothesis, knocking it over, and thinking you've "killed a big one!" That's a "strawman fallacy!")

Edited September 28, 2019 by Retrobyter
to add a thought

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

It's not that complicated!

Hi Retro,

Matt. 24:15- When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

So nothing was brought into the temple by the Romans until a few years later. Nothing fulfilled so far in this prophecy about the Holy Place....then when the Romans DID enter the remains of the temple...there was no more Holy Place. NOBODY did in fact SEE a Roman idol set up and standing IN THE HOLY PLACE. 

Can you direct me to an ancient source showing that in A.D. 66 something was brought into the Holy Place? 

Edited September 28, 2019 by Uriah

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Retro,

Matt. 24:15- When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

So nothing was brought into the temple by the Romans until a few years later. Nothing fulfilled so far in this prophecy about the Holy Place....then when the Romans DID enter the remains of the temple...there was no more Holy Place. NOBODY did in fact SEE a Roman idol set up and standing IN THE HOLY PLACE. 

Can you direct me to an ancient source showing that in A.D. 66 something was brought into the Holy Place? 

Shalom, Uriah.

Sure. At Wikipedia on the First Jewish-Roman War, we read:

The Great Revolt began in the year 66 CE, during the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, originating in Roman and Jewish religious tensions.[3] The crisis escalated due to anti-taxation protests and attacks upon Roman citizens by the Jews.[4] The Roman governor, Gessius Florus, responded by plundering the Second Temple, claiming the money was for the Emperor, and the next day launching a raid on the city, arresting numerous senior Jewish figures. This prompted a wider, large-scale rebellion and the Roman military garrison of Judaea was quickly overrun by the rebels, while the pro-Roman king Herod Agrippa II, together with Roman officials, fled Jerusalem. As it became clear the rebellion was getting out of control, Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, brought in the Syrian army, based on Legion XII Fulminata and reinforced by auxiliary troops, to restore order and quell the revolt. Despite initial advances and the conquest of Jaffa, the Syrian Legion was ambushed and defeated by Jewish rebels at the Battle of Beth Horon with 6,000 Romans massacred and the Legion's aquila lost. During 66, the Judean provisional government was formed in Jerusalem including former High Priest Ananus ben Ananus, Joseph ben Gurion and Joshua ben Gamla elected as leaders. Yosef ben Matityahu (Josephus) was appointed the rebel commander in Galilee and Eleazar ben Hanania as the commander in Edom. Later, in Jerusalem, an attempt by Menahem ben Yehuda, leader of the Sicarii, to take control of the city failed. He was executed and the remaining Sicarii were ejected from the city. Simon bar Giora, a peasant leader, was also expelled by the new government.

The experienced and unassuming general Vespasian was given the task, by Nero, of crushing the rebellion in Judaea province. Vespasian's son Titus was appointed as second-in-command. Given four legions and assisted by forces of King Agrippa II, Vespasian invaded Galilee in 67. Avoiding a direct attack on the reinforced city of Jerusalem, which was defended by the main rebel force, the Romans launched a persistent campaign to eradicate rebel strongholds and punish the population. Within several months Vespasian and Titus took over the major Jewish strongholds of Galilee and finally overran Jodapatha, which was under the command of Yosef ben Matityahu, as well as subdued Tarichaea, which brought an end to the war in Galilee.[5]

[5] is cited as...

Josephus, De Bello Judaico (Wars of the Jews), book iv, chapter i, § 1

That's "Book 4, Chapter 1, Section 1 of De Bello Judaico, by Josephus (Yosef ben Matityahu or Joseph son of-Matthew)" just to be clear.

It would be hard to "plunder the Second Temple" without actually going into the Temple!

Also, one should ask oneself, "Why would the Jewish rebel force attack the invading Roman army from Syria under Cestius Gallus and steal their legion's aquila?" What would prompt such a move, knowing the danger that such a theft would illicit since Rome would go to extremes to recover that aquila?

Whether the aquila was actually taken inside the Temple when Gessius Florus and his Roman military garrison entered it to plunder its treasures is irrelevant. The presence of Roman troops within the Temple would have been enough to fulfill Yeshua`s prediction.

And, again, just to be clear, I didn't say that I believe that the Roman aquila was the "idol" translated as the "abomination." I said that SOME PEOPLE believe that.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Whether the aquila was actually taken inside the Temple when Gessius Florus and his Roman military garrison entered it to plunder its treasures is irrelevant. The presence of Roman troops within the Temple would have been enough to fulfill Yeshua`s prediction.

Which prediction? From Matt 24:15?

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

Which prediction? From Matt 24:15?

Shalom, Diaste.

Yes, and from Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20. ALL THREE of these passages give us the whole picture because ALL THREE give us the same words following:

Matthew 24:15-21 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mark 13:14-19 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Luke 21:20-23 (KJV)

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed (surrounded) with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

The "triggers" (24:15, 13:14a; 21:20) in all three accounts of the SAME OLIVET DISCOURSE are all part of the same event that happened (PAST TENSE) in 66 A.D. because the "results" (24:16-21; 13:14b-19; 21:21-23) are also all part of the same event that happened in 66 A.D.

This is what the Preterists notice about these passages, and that is why they believe it all was fulfilled in the past.

HOWEVER, not everything in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in the past! The Preterists MAKE UP a scenario in which Yeshua` "returned" in the past (or when His "sign" - His face - was seen in the clouds) and DISCOUNT the rest of the warning which is still true for today!

Yeshua` SHALL come again as predicted! And, not one person shall mistake His coming!

[Uriah]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Sure. At Wikipedia on the First Jewish-Roman War, we read:

The Great Revolt began in the year 66 CE, during the twelfth year of the reign of Nero, originating in Roman and Jewish religious tensions.[3] The crisis escalated due to anti-taxation protests and attacks upon Roman citizens by the Jews.[4] The Roman governor, Gessius Florus, responded by plundering the Second Temple, claiming the money was for the Emperor, and the next day launching a raid on the city, arresting numerous senior Jewish figures. This prompted a wider, large-scale rebellion and the Roman military garrison of Judaea was quickly overrun by the rebels, while the pro-Roman king Herod Agrippa II, together with Roman officials, fled Jerusalem. As it became clear the rebellion was getting out of control, Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, brought in the Syrian army, based on Legion XII Fulminata and reinforced by auxiliary troops, to restore order and quell the revolt. Despite initial advances and the conquest of Jaffa, the Syrian Legion was ambushed and defeated by Jewish rebels at the Battle of Beth Horon with 6,000 Romans massacred and the Legion's aquila lost. During 66, the Judean provisional government was formed in Jerusalem including former High Priest Ananus ben Ananus, Joseph ben Gurion and Joshua ben Gamla elected as leaders. Yosef ben Matityahu (Josephus) was appointed the rebel commander in Galilee and Eleazar ben Hanania as the commander in Edom. Later, in Jerusalem, an attempt by Menahem ben Yehuda, leader of the Sicarii, to take control of the city failed. He was executed and the remaining Sicarii were ejected from the city. Simon bar Giora, a peasant leader, was also expelled by the new government.

The experienced and unassuming general Vespasian was given the task, by Nero, of crushing the rebellion in Judaea province. Vespasian's son Titus was appointed as second-in-command. Given four legions and assisted by forces of King Agrippa II, Vespasian invaded Galilee in 67. Avoiding a direct attack on the reinforced city of Jerusalem, which was defended by the main rebel force, the Romans launched a persistent campaign to eradicate rebel strongholds and punish the population. Within several months Vespasian and Titus took over the major Jewish strongholds of Galilee and finally overran Jodapatha, which was under the command of Yosef ben Matityahu, as well as subdued Tarichaea, which brought an end to the war in Galilee.[5]

[5] is cited as...

Josephus, De Bello Judaico (Wars of the Jews), book iv, chapter i, § 1

That's "Book 4, Chapter 1, Section 1 of De Bello Judaico, by Josephus (Yosef ben Matityahu or Joseph son of-Matthew)" just to be clear.

It would be hard to "plunder the Second Temple" without actually going into the Temple!

Also, one should ask oneself, "Why would the Jewish rebel force attack the invading Roman army from Syria under Cestius Gallus and steal their legion's aquila?" What would prompt such a move, knowing the danger that such a theft would illicit since Rome would go to extremes to recover that aquila?

Whether the aquila was actually taken inside the Temple when Gessius Florus and his Roman military garrison entered it to plunder its treasures is irrelevant. The presence of Roman troops within the Temple would have been enough to fulfill Yeshua`s prediction.

And, again, just to be clear, I didn't say that I believe that the Roman aquila was the "idol" translated as the "abomination." I said that SOME PEOPLE believe that.

Hi Retro

Not sure where I should start...Josephus or Wikipedia. Josephus has some VERY intense critics, and for good reason which I won't go into just yet. The highlighted sentence you cited from Wikipedia cannot be found in the writings of Josephus as you stated. Wiki is able to be edited by just about anyone who puts himself to it. What you read there is commentary, and I might go so far as to say most likely from a J.W.

Anything that IS in the writing of Josephus you cited is about taking 17 talents of "treasure" from the temple. (the treasury) A man you mention pretended that Caesar wanted it etc. 

NOTHING you wrote or will find will show an idol being set up in the Holy Place. It has been tried before...and abandoned.

[Retrobyter]

On 9/22/2019 at 11:04 PM, breathoflife said:

Hi Roy, you will never guess this but I disagree with you on a few points. 

First, you are very certain that anti-Christ won’t counterfeit the Messiah. Do you have Scripture I can look to for that teaching?  I am curious because of all the ways Scripture shows him doing that very thing.  An example antra-Christ brought before us with the teaching that anti-Christ “was, is not now, and will be again" in that same vein the Christ we are told “was, is, and will be again." The only difference being "is not now" about anti-christ  and "is" about the Christ. What does this mean about the two of them? We need to know what it means for Christ to be able to understand what is being said about anti-Christ. Christ was in the world as was anti-Christ. The "will be again" speaks of how both are coming back. Now the difference between them has to do with one being God and the other a created being. While Christ is omnipresent and is everywhere at once, anti-Christ is not and can only be in one place at a time. Does Scripture tells us where anti-Christ is? It does, anti-Christ is being held prisoner in the Abyss/ Bottomless Pit the entrance to the Lake of Fire. Christ is not only here but is Seated at the father’s right hand.  That is just one of the ways he counterfeits the Christ.  

I don’t want to highjack this thread but the counterfeiting of the false prophet is just amazing. The title he has gives us a clue to who he may be counterfeiting. He is a prophet are we told the Messiah will be preceded by anyone, maybe a prophet / we know the Jewish people would not accept a Messiah without Elijah who is looked for at every Passover? Elijah! One of these the false prophet will seem to answer that and come as Elijah. If it stopped there it would be fascinating enough. I won’t go to deep in this If folks want to we can start another thread. False Elijah may or may not challenge  the other religions to prove whose god is god. But two things we do know is that false prophet is going to seem to bring fire down from heaven and you know why he must do so, any other Fire is strange fire and unacceptable for temple service. Anti-christ might not be happy about not being worshipped. The other is connect with the fire. The Lord spoke of anti-christ falling from heaven like lightening. We know the Lord is also coming as lightening, coincidence, I do not think so.so what is it? This is the way something is described that men have no way of explaining what it is, for anti-Christ it is the counterfeit Shekinah Glory and Christ’s is the real Shekinah Glory. Some big time counterfeiting in the last days. 

Shalom, breathoflife.

OF COURSE you "disagree with" me "on a few points!" Nothing new there!

You said, "First, you are very certain that anti-Christ won’t counterfeit the Messiah." I said no such thing. I just don't believe that "antichrist" can be seen in either Daniel 9:26-27 OR in the Olivet Discourse (because of Yeshua`s reference to Daniel 9). Furthermore, "antichrist" is not the right title for this counterfeit. He is called the "beast" in Revelation and possibly the "man of sin" in 2 Thessalonians 2. The "antichrist," according to 1 John and 2 John, is an ATTITUDE, and that attitude of being against the LORD'S Messiah has been prevalent since the First Century A.D. Yochanan ("John") even wrote of this in his first book:

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah) is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit (attitude) of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Second, you said, "Christ was in the world as was anti-Christ." No, there's no proof for this theory. "Antichrist" is an ATTITUDE, NOT a person! Don't give this "antichrist" (falsely so-called) so much credit!

Ever see the "yin-yang" symbol? The circle represents the whole of creation; the two halves represented as two, equally-sized, French curves represent the forces and counterforces in the universe. It's a taoism symbol that represents the balance of forces in the universe.

In Western culture, we recognize a similar truth about physical forces (as on a force table), writing techniques (point, counterpoint, conclusion), and philosophy (thesis, antithesis, synthesis). Even in our theories on finance, we recognize the "Invisible Hand" bringing balance to the otherwise chaotic trouble that would ensue if we didn't have multiple pulls for the same "piece of the pie" in opposing directions. In mathematics, we know that negative numbers added to their positive counterparts always add up to zero.

HOWEVER, this is NOT true about God and Satan! HaSatan would LOVE to make us THINK this is true, but if we fall for it, WE'VE BEEN DECEIVED! God DOES NOT have His "antithesis" in Satan! NOR, does "Christ" (the Messiah of God) have His "antithesis" in the "Antichrist" (again, falsely so-called)!

"HaSatan" (Hebrew for "the Enemy," particularly a COURTROOM enemy) or "the devil" (ho diabolos in Greek meaning "the slanderer") is ABSOLUTELY NOT God's "equal" in the "evil direction" (as God is in the "good direction"), nor is he the king of Hell! He's afraid of going to the Lake of Fire as anyone else faced with the truth of its existence would be! We get that garbage from the Dark Ages and Middle Ages and early Renaissance Period and the artwork created in those times. It's WRONG AND UNBIBLICAL to think of "Heaven" and "Hell" as opposites in destination!

What you are suggesting is that a person who died will come back as the future "antichrist" person in the face of the Scriptures that say, "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, and after this the judgment!" Why - and even more importantly, HOW - will he be resurrected?

Third, you said, "It does, anti-Christ is being held prisoner in the Abyss/ Bottomless Pit the entrance to the Lake of Fire." Sorry, but this is ONLY found in Revelation 19 and 20 and ONLY for the dragon, and that is about the FUTURE, not the present! It happens AFTER the Lord's Return!

Furthermore, the "abyss/bottomless pit" is NOT the entrance to the "Lake of Fire!" Where'd you come up with that one?! The Greek word is "abussos" (which means "no-bottom") and the phrase is "to frear tees abussou" (in Revelation 9:2, which means "the well of-the no-bottom").

Technically, there's only ONE place where there is truly "no bottom": the center of the earth. From there, all directions are "up," and one can no longer go "down." However, that's about 4,000 miles straight down, all the way through the crust, the mantle, the outer core and the inner core of the planet Earth.

There's another solution, however, to this phrase: It's a well with an UNSOUNDED bottom; that is, it may have a bottom, but no one has found it, yet. It's not that it has "no bottom" but "no KNOWN bottom." This seems particularly clear since the meteorite that cracks it open in Revelation 9:2 does not destroy the earth entirely but punches a hole in the crust, merely opening a hole to the well.

Revelation 9:1-3 (KJV)

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven (the sky) unto the earth (description of a meteorite): and to him ("it" masculine) was given the key (the key coordinates) of the bottomless pit. 2 And he ("it" masculine) opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. 3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Later we read,

Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

None of this has happened, yet, but shall happen in the future. 

Finally, you said, "The Lord spoke of anti-christ falling from heaven like lightening." But, that is NOT what He said! What was actually SAID was ...

Luke 10:17-20 (KJV)

17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying,

"Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name!" 

18 And he said unto them,

"I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven."

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Abdicate said:

Count it up:

Revelation 11:3  And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

1260+1260=2520 / 365 = 7 years (but remember, the days are shortened by 1/3 - Rev 8:12) 

Hi Abdicate

Are you sure these things you posted are to be read in a linear manner and not as simultaneous? Have you seen my other post(s) about this?...

This is from Sept 19:

"Very well. You do lay out a scenario where two time periods of 3.5 yrs. are combined. And you show the reference to Dan.9:27 as meaning a 7 yr. period. But as I said, have to add concurrent reading to it. What do you do with the 7 thunders that aren't divulged. You will in the least need do see them as concurrent somewhere or else you will go beyond the 7 yr. time frame. 

So why not (merge) the other two 3.5 yr. periods? Or, would you say for example that the Euphrates, mentioned in the 6th trumpet AND the 6th vial are about 3.5 yrs apart? Or the darkness shown in the 5th vial AND the 5th trumpet? Or the sun during the 4th vial AND the 4th trumpet? Same for the rivers and fountains of waters at the 3rd vial AND the 3rd trumpet? The sea at the second vial AND trumpet? Something affecting plants AND people comes down from above in the first vial AND trumpet. Do you view them as all being approx 3.5 yrs. apart from each other? Then of course we have lightnings, thunder hail, voices and earthquake common to the seals AND trumpets AND vials-all three. "

 

Are any of these included in the thousand two hundred and sixty days? Are they separate bringing us to 14 yrs, or 21 if we include the 7 thunders (not actually divulged) in keeping with the pattern of sevens?

I see them as being separate visions showing varying aspects/details of the same time period of 3.5 yrs. Revelation is a book of many visions, they are, in places chronological and in elsewhere it is like laying a layer over another layer. Using a strictly linear method one can even glean the coming of Jesus more than once.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Uriah
punctuation

[Uriah]

24 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Yes because they preach 1260 days. Then they are killed (no one could stop them except the Antichrist). The Antichrist stops the scarifies and since no one can stop them, when the Antichrist overcomes them, kills them, and then the desolation prophesied by Jesus, where He then warned Israel to flee into the mountains, which they'll do for 1260 days. It's very simple and plain and doesn't leave out any verse.

Hi Abdicate

Are you thinking that because you see the same number twice, we just add them together? Any thoughts about the trumpets and vials?

[Uriah]

2 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

I'm sticking to the scriptures. 1 week of 7 years, 3.5 years, 3.5 years, 42 months, 42 months, times, time, half-time, times, time, half-time, 1260 days 1260 days - each different than the other.

Hi Abdicate

Hmmm, nothing about the trumpets and vials......?