Intelligent Design, Science & Religion

[The Barbarian]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

On 12/2/2020 at 7:16 AM, The Barbarian said:

Both Theism and Deism believe in the existence of one God that created the universe...

Then in regard to the point I was making... 

...there is no difference. 

If it doesn't matter whether or not God cares about us and is involved in this world, there isn't any difference.

 

[Paul James]

On 12/3/2020 at 2:45 PM, The Barbarian said:

Since Darwin wrote that God created the first living things, I think your assumption is a faulty one.

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Evolution is a phenomenon that is directly observed.   Perhaps you don't know what biological evolution is.   What do you think it is?

Technically, evolutionary theory is a scientific theory.   In science, a theory is an idea or set of ideas that have been repeatedly confirmed by evidence.  Would you like to learn about some of the predictions of the theory that have been confirmed?

 

Over the 20 or so years on forums, I have seen all the discussions and "proofs" of Evolution, and none of the twaddle that has be trotted out in the name of science has proved anything.   The "evidence" has consisted of the words, "probably", "possibly", "might have", etc.    images of the evolutionary process have mainly been artists' impressions.   No one has actually observed the process as it happened.   So, I don't need to see any more "evidence" that I haven't seen already.  I have examined all the evidence I need to see and am still convinced that Evolution is a nonsense fairy story put forward by those who reject that God created this whole universe in six 24 hour days out of nothing.

The thing about a demonic delusion forming into a religion is that no matter what evidence, or lack of it, is put forward, the deceived doggedly stick to the fairy story like a young child believing in Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny.

[The Barbarian]

Evolution is a phenomenon that is directly observed.   Perhaps you don't know what biological evolution is.   What do you think it is?

Technically, evolutionary theory is a scientific theory.   In science, a theory is an idea or set of ideas that have been repeatedly confirmed by evidence.  Would you like to learn about some of the predictions of the theory that have been confirmed?

6 hours ago, Paul James said:

Over the 20 or so years on forums, I have seen all the discussions and "proofs" of Evolution, and none of the twaddle that has be trotted out in the name of science has proved anything.   

It's directly observed.   Because you don't know what biological evolution is, you're unable to deal with it.   It is a change in allele frequencies of a population over time.   We see that constantly.   We also see speciation.   Even many creationist organizations now admit that fact:

Is Fixity of Species Biblical?

Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/speciation/

6 hours ago, Paul James said:

I have examined all the evidence I need to see and am still convinced that Evolution is a nonsense fairy story put forward by those who reject that God created this whole universe in six 24 hour days out of nothing.

You were misled about that, too.  Darwin, for example wrote:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

6 hours ago, Paul James said:

The thing about a demonic delusion forming into a religion is that no matter what evidence, or lack of it, is put forward, the deceived doggedly stick to the fairy story like a young child believing in Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny.

It's not a "demonic delusion."   YE creationists are often God-loving and sincere in their faith, which is not  inspired by demons.    They are, unless they make an idol of their new doctrine, no less Christians than the rest of us.

 

[The Barbarian]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

And you are invited to discuss that if and when you're willing but there will be no discussion of "You must accept God on faith.  Science requires evidence," until you deal with the evidence already provided. Your argument ad nauseam is worthless, utterly fallacious, not very scientific, realistic, or factual. 

I see your denial, and I already showed you that the Bible itself says that there are other sources of information about God.    But one believes in God by faith, while science only deals in evidence.

Ephesians 2:8    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Now, I will agree, this doesn't say "faith only."    As James said, we are justified by works as well as by faith.    But never by "evidence."    Still, as Romans 1:20 has it, God is made known by His creation to those open to seeing it, who are without excuse.

 

[Alive]

Its been observed that for Christians to make the Scriptures something that the scriptures don't claim to be--is a mistake and makes it more difficult to make a case for Salvation/Christianity to the unbeliever.

Just saying.

I've not participated much in this thread, but I will add that our God did not ask us to 'check our brain' at the door.

Indeed--Christ, the Word--is the rational reason for all things.

[David1701]

On 11/29/2020 at 12:46 PM, The Barbarian said:

See above.   In science,theists and non-theists look at the same information and draw the same conclusions.   Some (not all) creationists merely deny information that threatens their new doctrines.   This is what just happened here.

A uniformitarian atheist looks at the Grand Canyon and concludes that a small amount of water created it, over millions of years.  A Bible believer looks at the Grand Canyon and concludes that the Flood and its aftermath created it, in a short period of time.  They have the same evidence but different worldviews.

[Guest kingdombrat]

7 minutes ago, David1701 said:

A uniformitarian atheist looks at the Grand Canyon and concludes that a small amount of water created it, over millions of years.  A Bible believer looks at the Grand Canyon and concludes that the Flood and its aftermath created it, in a short period of time.  They have the same evidence but different worldviews.

I look at it and can see both views.   For the majority of the Canyon I see definite Flood, but for some intricate and definitive features definitely screams time time time.   But I also believe since the Flood did the majority of the work, it did not require as much time for the rest to come into place.   But it's quite clear that [both] examples are evident within the Grand Canyon.

[David1701]

6 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

I look at it and can see both views.   For the majority of the Canyon I see definite Flood, but for some intricate and definitive features definitely screams time time time.   But I also believe since the Flood did the majority of the work, it did not require as much time for the rest to come into place.   But it's quite clear that [both] examples are evident within the Grand Canyon.

I meant the Grand Canyon as a whole, not referring to intricate details that have been added since it was first made.

[Guest kingdombrat]

10 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I meant the Grand Canyon as a whole, not referring to intricate details that have been added since it was first made.

I will only add that a Flash Flood like Noah's Flood would not leave distinct sediment layers like we find within the Grand Canyon.   A flood would have deteriotated any sign of layers as it carved itself out.   So those layers had to be there before the Flood took place.

Edited December 5, 2020 by kingdombrat

[David1701]

12 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

I will only add that a Flash Flood like Noah's Flood would not leave distinct sediment layers like we find within the Grand Canyon.   A flood would have deteriotated any sign of layers as it carved itself out.   So those layers had to be there before the Flood took place.

Noah's Flood was not a "flash flood"!  It lasted for many months.

Recent floods, although much smaller than the global flood of Noah's day, have shown that many layers of sediment can be laid down, in a short space of time.