The fulness of the Gentiles

[dhchristian]

Just now, Alive said:

Consider this, dh. One day maybe years from now when you realize that you were mistaken about something you thought the Lord taught you.

 

Just now, maryjayne said:

The issue is that you equated your message with it being from God, and not listening to you is the same as not listening to God.

My point is that only the correct message is from God, so there is nothing wrong with ignoring an incorrect message, no matter who the messenger claims to be from.

You may not realise your post says this.

By all means tell me where I am wrong, Test the Spirit in me, Tell me How this message is counter to doctrinally unsound? A messenger is Just a messenger, nothing more. All glory and Honor belong to the one who sends the messenger, Not the messenger. 

You see, You cannot criticize the message, so you instead Kill the messenger.... It is as old as History itself. 

 

 

[Alive]

dh---my question wasn't to tell you that I think you are wrong.

The question stands and I think it is a good one.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, maryjayne said:

You still don't understand what I am saying. My point is about the messenger, not the message.

Be at peace, I am not attacking you. 

Imagine a verbal message. The messenger gets the wording wrong. The wrong message is given.

The recipient tells the messenger off, and the messenger says "if you argue with my message, you are arguing with the sender"

Would the messenger be right? No. 

Now go back to your post saying that disagreement with the messenger is disagreement with God. Those words are only true if the messenger passed on the message accurately.

It's a dangerous equivalency when disagreement happens.

It is a veiled threat to scare others into not challenging.

I am confident that this was not your aim and you didn't mean to do it

 That is why I am pointing it out to you.

Blessings to you.

You are saying I am claiming to be a prophet or something because I have a message to give, I am no prophet or anything like that. My message is the same as any preacher who preaches a message, we are called to say what we say, What God has shown us through the Word of God. I am not asking you to follow me or Donate to my fund or buy my book and I have nothing to gain I am only sharing what He has shown me. Just a messenger.. no veiled threats, no threats against challenge, in  fact I invite you to challenge what I have said... By all means show me where I am wrong. Like I said I am a poor communicator, I am unclear at times, I have a thick skin, because of all the pain in my life that I have been through. I come to the Point in my life where I do not let rejection affect me, Because I Know the message is not from Me and the rejection of what he is showing me is a rejection of Him. Do You get it yet? If I were to take every rejection personally I would be full of hatred and vindication, I am not, this is How we learn to Love our enemies, this How we learn meekness, this how we as Christian are able to give our testimony (martyria) if called upon to do so.... Because we Know he lives in us, and the attacks are against Him and not us. Just Like How Jesus came to Saul on the Road to Damascus, Saul was persecuting Christians, Jesus said "why are you persecuting me"? (Paraphrased)   

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2;20)

Do understand this?  

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

dh---my question wasn't to tell you that I think you are wrong.

The question stands and I think it is a good one.

Your Statement, You mean... Below?

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Consider this, dh. One day maybe years from now when you realize that you were mistaken about something you thought the Lord taught you.

You said You were a Preacher, right? How is it that you could stand in front of the church and preach if You did not know what you were preaching was the Truth? Yes, We grow as Christians and there is a Naivety about our past thinking but what we speak is what we are given to speak, from the Light we have at the time. No One man has the whole counsel of God, No one man can handle that kind of Power, And The Spirit Gives us only what He Knows we can handle, But even then we are capable of falling into pride and thinking we are better than others.... I Want to assure you I am merely sharing what he has shown me.... Is this Wrong? is it Wrong to claim that the LORD taught me these things, well if so every preacher out there is committing the same sin, when they preach. I Disagree With this, I am just obeying what he has called me to do, which is share what he is showing me... I Pray you understand this... Read my comment to Mary Jayne as well... 

[dhchristian]

Just now, maryjayne said:

I give up.

You are determined to go into some martyrdom mode and claim persecution, despite my several attempts to explain my meaning.

So be it. Think what you like. I was trying to HELP you.

Martyrdom Mode!!?? I love that ! Gave me a big chuckle.... I am only sharing what He has shown me, Am I not allowed to do this, and say He Showed me or taught me these things? Think about what your saying, You are making something of Nothing... Thanks for your effort to help though.

God Bless.

[Alive]

15 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Your Statement, You mean... Below?

 

You said You were a Preacher, right? How is it that you could stand in front of the church and preach if You did not know what you were preaching was the Truth? Yes, We grow as Christians and there is a Naivety about our past thinking but what we speak is what we are given to speak, from the Light we have at the time. No One man has the whole counsel of God, No one man can handle that kind of Power, And The Spirit Gives us only what He Knows we can handle, But even then we are capable of falling into pride and thinking we are better than others.... I Want to assure you I am merely sharing what he has shown me.... Is this Wrong? is it Wrong to claim that the LORD taught me these things, well if so every preacher out there is committing the same sin, when they preach. I Disagree With this, I am just obeying what he has called me to do, which is share what he is showing me... I Pray you understand this... Read my comment to Mary Jayne as well... 

Good morning, dh. I trust you are well.

I don't have any desire to prove you are wrong and I certainly haven't suggested you are sinning by saying what you believe the Lord has shown you to share.

I asked that question a few posts back, because I think it is a healthy position to take and a good possibility to keep in mind.

Especially when discussing ideas or scriptural interpretations that might be a little on the fringe or perhaps its better to say-- 'new ideas' that aren't what the majority of scripture students see.

This discussion has suggested a topic that I may start...I'm still chewing on it.

[choir loft]

On 9/19/2019 at 4:29 PM, maryjayne said:

Jews who are not Saved are the enemy of us, the church. I speak as one born of a Jewish family when I say that.

 

sweeping generalisations are seldom helpful or accurate

Galatians 3:28-29 King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

'Greek' refers to Gentiles. Christians do not become Jews. Jews do not become Gentiles. We all become 'church' and are neither Jew nor Gentile. We are Gods children.

You are confused about the context of Galatians 3.   PLEASE read the ENTIRE chapter.

It is NOT about who is a Jew or who is not.

The third chapter is about faith and belief - verses 1-9.

The third chapter is about redemption in Christ - verses 10-14.

The third chapter is about the LAW - verses 15-25 (the largest section)

The third chapter concludes with the admonition of equality in Christ - verses 26-29.

THE ENTIRE discussion of chapter three deals with the subject of faith vs. works.  Again it deals with DOING according to God's will (royal LAW) rather than ACTING according to one's own idea about things (worldly law).

The chapter concludes by certifying that ALL those who ACT according to God's will in their lives are equal before God.  They become His children, for NOT ALL are His children - nationality notwithstanding.

* * * 

Undocumented anti-semitic generalizations, such as stating that Jews are the enemy of the church, are not addressed in this chapter.  Read it again.  Where in the chapter does it say Jews are the enemy of the church?

Since we are way off the rails on this, I hereby attempt to bring the discussion back to reality.   THE CHURCH has murdered more innocent Jews than Jews have killed Christians.   In fact, the CHURCH has killed more saints (all who believe and follow Christ) than any other institution.  (Revelation 17:5)  Have you not heard of the murderous period of European history called the Reformation?  Wars were fought for decades over church domination of the masses.  Nobody cared about definitions of righteousness.  It was all about church membership and the people who most embodied resistance to that hateful agenda were Jews.  Unwilling to abandon their traditions and faith, Jews were either killed or herded into squalid places called ghettos.  Ghetto isn't a black term - its Jewish.  As it was done to the Jews, so it was done later to Native Americans who weren't herded into ghettos, they were forced into squalid areas called 'reservations' where they live and suffer to this day.

The chapter you've quoted can be construed by myself to demonstrate the wickedness of the protestant church.  

First that the denominations of protestantism most emphatically draw a solid line between themselves and the rest of God's children.  They HATE Catholics, Muslims and Jews and anyone who isn't one of them.  (vs 1-9)

Second, they insist upon joining their particular club.  It isn't really about redemption in Christ for them - its' about membership.  (vs. 10-14)

Third, they HATE God's Law and at every opportunity preach teach and speak against it - claiming to be save by something called grace of which they know not.  In their mind, grace is something that justifies their sin - living like hell on earth.  They fail to acknowledge that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.  (vs. 15-25)

Finally, they refuse to acknowledge equality in Christ.  While they love to say salvation is universal, they continue to bash Jews Catholics Muslims and anybody who isn't one of them.  Of all people they are the most hypocritical because they absolutely refuse correction - absolutely.  They prefer buzz words and religious slogans to Biblical truth - using clippings of scripture to justify their false doctrines and ideology. (vs. 26-29)

If there has been a great demonic power upon the earth that has drawn the blood of innocent people, including Jews, for millenia IT IS THE CHURCH.  When the New World was discovered, the Church came ashore with the purpose of enslaving or killing any Native American who did not join the church.   During the period of African colonialism, the Church moved in and enabled slave traders and warlords.  Join or die wasn't written anywhere, but it was carried out upon masses of people in the name of God FOR THE CHURCH BELIEVED THEN AS NOW THAT IT IS ACTING ON GOD'S BEHALF.   Convinced of their own moral spiritual and ethnic superiority THE CHURCH, especially the protestant version, has been and continues to be the most dangerous cult on the planet.   

BUT

As the book of Revelation shows in glorious detail, God intends to deal with it in no uncertain terms.  The church will be betrayed and destroyed by those whom it seeks to crush in its grasp.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited September 23, 2019 by choir loft

[Alive]

Choir Loft----lots of sweeping generalizations in there.

Pot--meet kettle.

Do you not see this?

[choir loft]

On 8/29/2019 at 7:16 PM, dhchristian said:

One of the great overlooked or misunderstood concepts is What the "fulness of the Gentiles" entails. 

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness ^G4138 of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25)

Most scholars and commentaries say this is a marker of when the dispensation of the Gentiles reverts back to the Jews in Israel, That the number of Gentiles to be saved according to God's predestination is reached. If reading the text, it is easy to make this assumption. But often overlooked is the meaning of the Word "fulness", which I believe points to a completion, not of the number of people but of the Quality of those Gentiles, a state of fulness in Christ Jesus. I am not going to get into a big long study of this Word, which is plērōma The meanings I want to draw your attention to are as follows: that which is (has been) filled, in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ. 

What if this Mystery is not speaking of the Number of gentiles that fill the Boat so to speak, But the Fulness of Christ in them that is indicative of an end time prophetic fulfillment? Let's take a look at some other verses that discuss this. You will note that these verses all come from Ephesians.

That in the dispensation of the fulness ^G4138 of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (Eph 1:10) 

In this first verse we see the fulness of times, Pointing to the end of this Gentile dispensation, And this verse speaks of the gathering together as one, all things in Christ Jesus. As we Go on here you will see that this end time fulfillment is of this end time Unity which we will all be a part of.

Which is his body, the fulness ^G4138 of him that filleth all in all. (Eph 1:23)

This final statement of this powerful prayer (Eph. 1;17-23) Is Pointing us to reach a point of complete fulness in Christ Jesus, with him being our all in all. What this is speaking about is a filling with Christ, where there once was the doctrines and knowledge of man, The wisdom of God filling us as opposed to the Wisdom of Man. This is the starting point where He is able to fill us. I have mentioned this here before but it is the point when we respond to Jesus Questions, not with the pride of our own understanding, Instead we respond as Ezekiel did when asked if these dry bones could live with "LORD thou knowest" (Eze. 37:3) 

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness ^G4138 of God. (Eph 3:19) 

This verse, located in the second powerful prayer in Ephesians (3:14-21), Points us to yet another step in this final filling process, which is to be filled with the LOVE of Christ, Which surpasses, or exceeds Knowledge (Gnosis) of Him. So to this point , we have replaced the Wisdom of men, with the Wisdom of God, with a heart that is receptive to his teaching, and replaced our earthly knowledge of Him with His Love for us, which is speaking of the intimacy of this relationship, and the filling of us with his Love. 

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness ^G4138 of Christ: (Eph 4:13)

This final step is the Unity, and fulness we arrive at, "unto a perfect man" when we arrive at the fulness of Christ. 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Thus the Fulness of the gentiles is not so much a number of saved people reached with the Gospel, But a Maturity of relationship that we attain in the end times shortly before we are removed and replaced by Israel and their dispensation known as the final week for them. 

Jesus used the analogy of wineskins and old garments to describe this, as this is in essence what is happening to us, We have removed the Old, so that he can fill us with the new. No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse. Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved. (Mat. 9:16-17)

If this has spoken to you, these two great prayers in Ephesians are where you begin. We are not speaking of salvation here, we are speaking of what happens to us when we are sanctified By the Holy Ghost, the next step in our walk is to take that new wineskin and fill it with Christ Jesus. Be warned, though, as with any clean house, the demons are lurking awaiting to return unto it with their friends...Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.(Matt. 12;44-45)

you must open the door to Christ Jesus.  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (Rev. 3;20)

 

 

 

You've written that you love the Hebrew people, yet you embrace doctrines that are abusive of them.

I'm not taking issue with you personally, as you suppose, but with the false doctrines of demons you have assumed were true. 

Look at them again with the fresh eyes you claim to possess and see if they are not what I claim them to be -----

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[dhchristian]

Just now, choir loft said:

You've written that you love the Hebrew people, yet you embrace doctrines that are abusive of them.

I'm not taking issue with you personally, as you suppose, but with the false doctrines of demons you have assumed were true. 

Look at them again with the fresh eyes you claim to possess and see if they are not what I claim them to be

I Embrace the Word of God as Taught to me by the Spirit of Truth. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Romans 11:28) 

Until Israel has the scales removed from their eyes, They are enemies of the cross. We as Christians through the Work of the Holy Ghost in us are being sanctified (progressive sanctification) to Love our enemies that through our fulness we may extend Mercy unto Israel and be a part in Opening their Eyes. Take the time to read Romans 11 in its entirety, as I have already quoted pretty much the entire chapter in this Post, at one point or another, Especially verses 24-33 as these are Paul's Epiphany, When He came to realize what God's Plan is.