I’m Struggling and Need Help

[$teven]

44 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

If you are going to suggest that forgiveness is the actual foundation of salvation(instead of Christ’s work on the cross, grace, believing on) then at least define forgiveness so that victims don’t believe that forgiveness means remaining silent.

ReneeIW,

Salvation is only possible if your sins are forgiven by God.  I cannot say this any other way.

The mechanism that God put in place to make Salvation possible is the sacrifice of His Son Jesus.

Jesus died so that the sins you committed before accepting Christ as your saviour are forgiven.

However, once you accept forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ, you are no longer a sinner but a child of God.

As such, there are standards you have to live by.  You do not continue to live as though you are still a sinner but as a child of God.

It is not you forgiving someone's sins that make salvation possible but God forgiving you of yours.

However, scripture says if you do not forgive a brother or sister of their sins then God will withhold forgiveness of your own sins.

I do not make the rules but simply share them so you do not fall afoul of God's expectations.

[$teven]

44 minutes ago, nzkev said:

You dont speak of salvation And slip that in at the end,  Beware

So, is it possible to receive salvation if God chooses not to forgive you of your sins?

Salvation is not a right but the gift of God through Jesus Christ.

That is why we are having this discussion.  We've been given a precious gift that most of the world do not have.

There are many ways to demonstrate we've received this gift, the capacity and ability to forgive being just one.

[Blood Bought 1953]

59 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

This statement is so scary to me because I know this is what priests are telling the boys they have raped. I have witnessed professional athletes tell this to women they have beaten to a pulp.  Men who have raped tell this to their victims and the list goes on and on. The victim forgives and the offender goes on and harms another. But somehow we are to believe that Christ, who came to give us rest  and a life more abundantly, doesn’t care about people being harmed, but only cares about the offender being “forgiven.”

The abused person is not only physically, sexually, mentally, and emotionally traumatized, but after all that, they are in danger of hell while their offender is on their way to heaven.

If you are going to suggest that forgiveness is the actual foundation of salvation(instead of Christ’s work on the cross, grace, believing on) then at least define forgiveness so that victims don’t believe that forgiveness means remaining silent.

A woman is brutally raped, what is forgiveness in this situation? 

Btw, who did the thief on the cross forgive? Or the jailer?

 

 

 

Btw, who did the thief on the cross forgive? Or the jailer?

Brilliant ! .......never fear ,though.....some are damned and determined to find a way to ignore what Jesus paid such a terrible price for......Grace!

[GandalfTheWise]

10 minutes ago, ReneeIW said:

A woman is brutally raped, what is forgiveness in this situation? 

Unilateral forgiveness and bilateral reconciliation are two entirely different things.  Unilateral forgiveness is what goes on inside of us.  Bilateral reconciliation is what the relationship or future interactions might look like and depends on the other person. 

Forgiveness is part of the healing process where what was done no longer affects us.  It means being able to sleep comfortably at night or not falling apart when we are reminded of what happened.  It means being able to see most men without seeing the face of the rapist and fearing them.  It means being able to unabashedly hug and hold and be intimate with a spouse without flashbacks or nausea.  It is something that is entirely for our benefit.  It does not mean forgetting but it does mean that it is not festering inside of us.   It has nothing to do with what does or does not happen to the other person.  I'll emphasize again that often in cases of severe emotional or spiritual trauma that forgiveness will end up being part of or a result of the healing process.  To some extent, a part of that process might be under our control but a large part of it will be what God does Himself in our hearts and the counselors and other people He may use as part of that process.  The fruit of forgiveness is our personal freedom from fear and anger and shame. 

The seeking and fulfillment of vengeance is no replacement for forgiveness and indeed might hinder forgiveness and healing because it places conditions on our healing.  To require a sufficient amount of pain and suffering in the rapist's life to be satisfied before forgiving means that our healing has conditions depending on other people to take certain actions and for certain things to happen.   Such things can perhaps make us tangibly safer or give a brief satisfaction, but probably do not make us freer but perhaps put us in deeper bondage because we are tying our emotional and spiritual freedom to things we may have little control over outside of us.

What our interaction or relationship with someone looks like going forward is dependent on the other person.  Some people will never be safe to be around and we shouldn't.  Some people need to be stopped and perhaps it is our role to help do so.  Some people (probably not the case here) indeed deeply change and perhaps some type of relationship on different terms going forward is possible (usually speaking of family or relatives here).  There are some people we should never interact with again for our own safety (which could include such measures as legal protections or moving to a different location and simply never responding to them in any way).

To forgive someone does not mean pretending and acting as though nothing happened.  It means being free inside our hearts from that person and what happened.  Our interactions with them in the future depend on them.  Forgiving someone does NOT mean you ever have to trust them or pretend something didn't happen.  Trust is something that is earned through consistent behaviors over time.  When trust is violated, it is something that has to be reconstructed slowly and safely.  If we have forgiven someone, the possibility of future interaction, a restored relationship of some type, and trust exists, but would be a long process and would depend on the other person indeed having changed.  In some cases, the best course of action is to never have an interaction with someone again.   In the long run, forgiveness is about our being able to walk forward in life free from the emotional and spiritual bondage.
 

[Blood Bought 1953]

2 hours ago, $teven said:

ReneeIW,

Salvation is only possible if your sins are forgiven by God.  I cannot say this any other way.

The mechanism that God put in place to make Salvation possible is the sacrifice of His Son Jesus.

Jesus died so that the sins you committed before accepting Christ as your saviour are forgiven.

However, once you accept forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ, you are no longer a sinner but a child of God.

As such, there are standards you have to live by.  You do not continue to live as though you are still a sinner but as a child of God.

It is not you forgiving someone's sins that make salvation possible but God forgiving you of yours.

However, scripture says if you do not forgive a brother or sister of their sins then God will withhold forgiveness of your own sins.

I do not make the rules but simply share them so you do not fall afoul of God's expectations.

 

This is great stuff if you are under the Law......unfortunately for Legalists Jesus That He was THE END of the Law for those that TRUST in Him alone for their Salvation.....You claim you do not make the rules ......Great......there are no rules in Christianity, except to Believe and Love......If , by the help of our “ Helper”—- The Holy Spirit That is, we can forgive somebody out of love , that is what God desires......not some pretend “ forgiveness” conjured up out  of fear Of going to Hell, that is  not heartfelt .God  hates phoniness regardless of the intentions.God understands your hesitation in forgiving. He knows it is not natural .Put your reluctance to forgive on the Cross Of Jesus with the rest of your sins , thank God for His Grace and continue in this Walk  of Grace and let God deal with the mess......give it to Him.....simply because  “ He cares for you very much”. God bless.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Blood Bought 1953

[Blood Bought 1953]

1 hour ago, $teven said:

Forgiveness is God blotting out your sins and salvation is the end result, being saved from God's wrath.  This is God's 'natural' response to sin, what we know as death. This is why Christ came, to die for the sins of all.  It is through his sacrifice that we have a path to redemption.  Salvation is not passive but proactive; which means we have to live our lives observing the principles underpinning it.  You are right, in that this is possible only by the power of the Holy Spirit but you have to bear those fruits that validate the presence of the Spirit, or else, as John said in Matthew 3: [8] Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: [10] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Also, recall the differentiation Jesus himself made about those who come to the Lord in the parable of the sower.  They did not all meet the same fate.  Our fate is determined by how effectively we apply the principles of salvation.  One of those principles is that we have to proactively forgive others in order to received God's forgiveness.  Do you imagine God attaching such importance to forgiveness that He sacrifices His only Son, only to then treat it with contempt by allowing those whom Jesus died for to dismiss it as unnecessary?

There is a parable from Jesus himself in Matthew 18: 23-35 that perfectly encapsulates this principle.  Keep in mind as well that the whole point of salvation is gaining entry into Jesus' kingdom at the end of this age. Why would he allow anyone who does not observe the same principles he did while on earth to share in his inheritance?  If this wasn't a central issue he wouldn't have uttered "Father, forgive them..." as he was being put to death by those who mocked him.

 

Why would he allow anyone who does not observe the same principles he did while on earth to share in his inheritance? 

Thats an easy one....it’s called Grace......The same way anybody gets to Heaven without meriting it....Jesus had many principles that we do not live by .......Will you give me anything of yours That I  ask for ? If so, please give me your car (I am not picky, just give me a good air- conditioner and a great music system, so I can listen to  Led Zeppilin as I am doing now). If I slap your cheek, will you offer me the other? Yeah, I thought not......Why continue to dredge up an Old Testament performance - based way to Salvation. Why not graduate into the Age Of Grace which is where we are now .Anything we bring to God’s Judgement Seat other than our Faith in the Shed Blood to justify oneself is going to end up bad—- REAL  bad. 

[ReneeIW]

2 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

 It means being able to sleep comfortably at night or not falling apart when we are reminded of what happened

Trauma can affect sleep the same way pain from an injury can affect sleep. I’m not sure it’s  a spiritual issue.

I think part  of the reason I fall apart when I see his name is because I am reminded of his hypocrisy. Hypocrites made Christ very angry as well.

Remember, we are talking about a married Christian leader who ran the most powerful men’s ministry and taught about pure living and healthy marriages. He was married when he hurt me and other women. And wanted me to sleep with another woman   for his viewing pleasure(I did not!! This is one of many things he doesn’t want getting out) all the while preaching against homosexuality.

Tried to turn me on to cocaine (I did not try it!) and forced me to drink,  all the while praising Bill Wilson and Alcoholics Anonymous. Forced me to do unspeakable acts and then would go home to three little girls that I know he wouldn’t want doing the same things. And none of the above mentions the actual crime.

Obviously things he did to me pop in my head, but I would never wish the harm he did to me on him or anyone else.

I love Christ, so of course I want to forgive in a way that is Biblical and makes Christ happy. And He will get me there because He is the author and finisher of my faith. But I don’t want to be duped into believing forgiveness means you don’t report crimes, warn others or speak out against hypocrisy or leaders who are not qualified to lead in the church.

Edited September 5, 2019 by ReneeIW

[Jostler]

I would like to point  something out here.  There was a thief on a cross  right next to Jesus, whose eyes were opened to  the reality of just  Who Jesus is.  He didn't pray  any sinners prayer but his words DEFINITELY reflected a heart change, as evidenced by his  rebuke  of the  other thief's mocking, which  he had  previously  done  himself:

Quote

Mat 27:44

¶

Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.

 

Shortly after, one of the thieves had a complete  change of heart:

Quote

Luk 23:39-43

¶

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

 

 

¶

But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?  And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”  Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

 

 

¶

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

 

The thief's words reflected a heart that had gone through  all the elements necessary  for his eyes to  truly see Jesus  for Who He is.  He clearly  confessed his sin and acknowledge that he deserved punishment.  He recognized that Jesus was pure, not guilty, and in that is  repentance  strongly implied, as well as the  understanding that Jesus was his hope.  He turned to  the One he  had  just  recently mocked and  asked  for  something from Him .... favorable "remembrance" of  the King  he  now recognized Jesus to be.  And a belief that these crosses were  not  the "end" for either of them.

Jesus instantly  forgave  the personal offense of having  been unjustly mocked just moments before, and  then spoke to the fact that as the  Messiah He  would also deliver him from the consequences of  his  whole LIFE of sin and deliver  him from the  power of death...the just wages  of sin.  The  SECOND death....spiritual death....eternal separation from the person, presence and goodness of God. 

But please note this  one  thing carefully. 

Jesus did NOT deliver him from the consequences of his sin IN  THIS LIFE.  Do any  doubt He had the power to had He chosen to?  Yet He did not....and there is a world of revelation  in the answer  to  the question  "why not?".

 

Renee, i'd like to encourage  you  to reflect on that and ask Him to begin showing you "why not".   The point I want to make at first is simply that escaping from eternal consequences, IN THE PRESENCE OF DIVINE FORGIVENESS AND CLEANSING by the  blood, does NOT mean we can escape the  temporal consequences of sin, AND, that lack  of escape DOES NOT mean  forgiveness was  incomplete or  withheld. 

The fact the thief still died  physically  for his sin, does not in any way imply  Jesus' forgiveness of him was insufficient  or incomplete.  Your own forgiveness of your abuser, IS NOT insufficient or incomplete because you are  being  led to expose this sin!

Gandalf made a post above I want to refer back to in another post here  soon.  I'd encourage you to reread that one as well.  A bit later i hope to ADD a context to  the point Gandalf made about the  HUGE difference between LEGAL forgiveness, and reconciliation .... restoration  of  relationship.

 

I'm sorry I'm long winded, I don't mean to be but before I get to  the  "legal lens" i also want to point this  out:

In 1st Corinthians Paul was forced to deal with an astonishingly vile sexual sin parading openly in the midst  of the  Corinthian assembly, and the  way he  did it is quite sobering.

Quote

1Co 5:1

¶

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!  And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.

Please notice two things here.  Sexual sin of a nature so despicable it wasn't even acceptable to  the horrifically  corrupt, socially acceptable mores of the pagan culture this assembly was embedded in (evidently  this  guy  was sleeping with his  step-mother, or even God  forbid his  natural mother) and Paul's first response was a REBUKE of the  Corinthian believers for tolerating this sin in their midst.   And even DEFENDING  IT....."puffed up" about it.

Paul unequivocally states that their reaction TO this sin should have been to  REMOVE this man from their  midst.  And the rebuke strongly  implies  they should have KNOWN that was God's solution and ACTED on it.   Later Paul explains in more  depth as we will see:

Quote

1Co 5:4-7

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

¶

Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?  Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

I think the  implication in  Paul's words is clear.  This is a VERY  tough love in  view but Paul's counsel was to deliver this one to  physical death, BUT not out  of  spite or a desire  for vengeance...the  PURPOSE was correction so that a BELIEVER might be spared  eternal, spiritual loss.  As i understand this the  implication is that if this  sinner failed to address the sin in his  life and repent and STOP IT....it would  eventually  lead him to commission of the one unpardonable sin, blasphemy  of  the  Spirit, and end up  losing  his eternal life.  This  "tough love" of consciously, legally turning this man over to satanic authority was and is an expression of God's grace, not in any way  related to  vengeance.

The good news in this case is that this tough love DID have the desired result in this sinner's life.  Paul mentions  this again in 2nd Corinthians and from that mention we can conclude he DID  repent, stop sinning, and the way for restoration  of relationship was opened up...and Paul encouraged the Corinthians to  do exactly that.  But the cart must follow the horse....

For the sake of  brevity  I won't cite those verses but i trust they are available to  any  who choose to find them.

There is a difference between forgiveness and restoration and there is a legal basis for it and it is for the GOOD of  the sinner.  There is a difference  between the  first and second death that impacts the whole issue and the legal spiritual realities that impact both.

I  hope  to expand on that in another post....i'm sure it will be long  too and sorry for that in advance.  I do  pray  this can somehow begin  to give you  a foundation for release from the confusion between legal forgiveness and how we FEEL about the  circumstances.  And I'll express my conviction  now that it is the Lord Who has been encouraging you to expose....NOT some remnant of desire for vengeance on your  part as others  have implied.

He is grieved when His Body is polluted by the unrighteous leaven of sin, and grieved by His own people's averting their eyes from it and tolerating it.   If left untreated, it WILL spread and defile many, and His rebuke will fall on US if we tolerate it.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Jostler

[GandalfTheWise]

2 hours ago, ReneeIW said:

I love Christ, so of course I want to forgive in a way that is Biblical and makes Christ happy. And He will get me there because He is the author and finisher of my faith. But I don’t want to be duped into believing forgiveness means you don’t report crimes, warn others or speak out against hypocrisy or leaders who are not qualified to lead in the church.

In the interest of clarity (since words in posts and a forum sometimes fail to convey nuances correctly), I did not in my post intend to imply or say that forgiveness necessarily means letting things go unpunished but rather that forgiveness is a unilateral issue we work on in our hearts for our own well-being.  The separate issue of what actions to take in self-defense, protection of others, and the like is something to follow God's leading on and will be different in different situations.  Sometimes God fights the battle and keeps us out of it;  sometimes He empowers us to take part in it.

 

[ReneeIW]

10 hours ago, Jostler said:

Renee, i'd like to encourage  you  to reflect on that and ask Him to begin showing you "why not".   The point I want to make at first is simply that escaping from eternal consequences, IN THE PRESENCE OF DIVINE FORGIVENESS AND CLEANSING by the  blood, does NOT mean we can escape the  temporal consequences of sin, AND, that lack  of escape DOES NOT mean  forgiveness was  incomplete or  withheld. 

The fact the thief still died  physically  for his sin, does not in any way imply  Jesus' forgiveness of him was insufficient  or incomplete.  Your own forgiveness of your abuser, IS NOT insufficient or incomplete because you are  being  led to expose this sin!

Gandalf made a post above I want to refer back to in another post here  soon.  I'd encourage you to reread that one as well.  A bit later i hope to ADD a context to  the point Gandalf made about the  HUGE difference between LEGAL forgiveness, and reconciliation .... restoration  of  relationship.

 

 

Thank You Jostler. You gave me a lot to think about and I thought your entire post was brilliant.