Do you stand with Israel?

July 19, 2005

No.

Israel the Church--yes; Israel the nation--no. Anyone or any nation that does not accept the Jesus as Lord is an antichrist. This would hold true for the nation of Israel. For believers to spend time and money into a nation that does not accept Jesus is really fighting against God' will. For this very reason, Israel was rejected (because they would not believe in the Son of God) and the gentiles have replaced them to put forth the Word of God. Our eyes must be fixed on Jesus not Israel. This is another great deception of the Church today.

July 19, 2005

No.

Israel the Church--yes; Israel the nation--no. Anyone or any nation that does not accept the Jesus as Lord is an antichrist. This would hold true for the nation of Israel. For believers to spend time and money into a nation that does not accept Jesus is really fighting against God' will. For this very reason, Israel was rejected (because they would not believe in the Son of God) and the gentiles have replaced them to put forth the Word of God. Our eyes must be fixed on Jesus not Israel. This is another great deception of the Church today.

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Israel the Church--yes; Israel the nation--no. Anyone or any nation that does not accept the Jesus as Lord is an antichrist.

1. There is no such thing as "Israel the Church." You are promoting replacement theology which in theological terms is what we call a radical heresy.

2. What is "antiChrist" is your attitude toward the nations of the world. Seeing that there is NO nation that accepts Jesus as a whole, you are labelling all people an "anti-Christ," and It is people like you who reinforce Jewish unbelief as well as the unbelief of many good people throughout the world.

For believers to spend time and money into a nation that does not accept Jesus is really fighting against God' will.

So, are you against spending time and money to preach in China? India? Taiwan? Japan? Indonesia? North/South Korea? North/South Vietnam? The Philippines? Brazil? Nigeria? Kenya? The Congo? None of these peoples accept Jesus either. Or are you simply against spending time and money giving the gospel to the Jews?

For this very reason, Israel was rejected (because they would not believe in the Son of God)

No, Israel has never been rejected. The Scriptures say:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew..." (Romans 11:1-2)

Furthermore mote, The Bible says:

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

(Jeremiah 31:35-37)

The last I checked the sun and the other luminaries are still in the sky, and the ocean is still making waves. Therefore God has not cast off the seed of Israel despite what you say.

and the gentiles have replaced them to put forth the Word of God.

False!! the Gentiles who were brought to faith by a Jewish Messiah, who have been given Jewish Scriptures, and are the beneficiaries of a Jewish New Covenant, are commanded by God to bring the gospel to the Jews first and also the Gentiles. The Gospel is to the Jew first (Romans 1:16) God did not replace Jews, with the Gentiles, but rather he made of them one new man with Jewish believers, and has commanded the Gentiles to provoke the Jewish people to jealousy.

Instead we have incompetent handlers of the Scriptures, in their rank arrogance, saying that they have replaced the Jews, and that the Jews should just be left alone. If it were up to people like you the gospel would go nowhere, especially not to the Jews.

Our eyes must be fixed on Jesus not Israel. This is another great deception of the Church today.

Jesus eyes are fixed on Israel. I cannot live by a higher standard, than he sets. Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, is still a Jew, He calls the Jewish people his brethren, and He will return one day to reign over the world from Jerusalem. The one living in deception is you. You are also living under a curse.

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

(Genesis 12:2-3)

How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, O Israel! As the valleys are they spread forth, as gardens by the river's side, as the trees of lign aloes which the LORD hath planted, and as cedar trees beside the waters. He shall pour the water out of his buckets, and his seed shall be in many waters, and his king shall be higher than Agag, and his kingdom shall be exalted. God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of a unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee. (Numbers 24:5-9)

nebula · July 19, 2005

Mote -

You are confusing me.

I just read this on the "Abused Verse" thread:

Another verse to consider--2 Chronicles 7:14

July 19, 2005

No.

Israel the Church--yes; Israel the nation--no. Anyone or any nation that does not accept the Jesus as Lord is an antichrist. This would hold true for the nation of Israel. For believers to spend time and money into a nation that does not accept Jesus is really fighting against God' will.

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What we have here is a failure to communicate

By your reasoning there is no need for Christian humanitarian organizations like World Vision or Samaritan's Purse or Feed The Children to go into 3rd world nations and help the starving, dying, or otherwise needy because their ancestors are all "anti-christs"

Unbelievable.

Have you ever read Matthew 25? Maybe that is presumptious....have you ever read any of the Bible? It is impossible that a true disciple would have your attitude....so stop letting a preacher tell you what is in there. Read it, study it, eat it, digest it....then you will live it.

July 19, 2005

Another great example that it is not only the eyes of the Jews which have been blinded in part; the only difference is that it is HaShem that causes the blindness of his People Israel, but it is HaSatan who cause the blindness of those who say they are G-ds people. Oy!

Smalcald · July 19, 2005

Well once again I probably have not been clear in my words.

Is support of the modern nation state of Israel a condition of salvation, and what does it mean to stand with Israel?

I don't think God has broken any promises to the Jewish people. He indeed has given them their homeland again, has brought them together after all of these centuries and persecution, which I think is part of His plan, and I have no doubt that Israel and the Middle East will play prominently in these end times we are living in. But of course most importantly He has given them and the whole world a Savior.

The issue will be of course coming to Christ and that will happen soul by soul, not nation by nation, unless I do not understand how we are using this term? If you are saying that in the end, there will be a great conversion in Israel, then praise the Lord and I do pray for that. But for example is the US saved and other nations unsaved as nations? I don't think we can say that, all we can really say is that those individuals who believe in Christ with their true heart and faith, accept Him as Lord and Savior and as part of the Trinity will have salvation in the end, regardless of geography, culture, or ethnicity. So I guess I am trying to separate out this process, from how God has used and will use the Jewish people, who let us not forgett and maybe I have not been clear here, are His chosen people.

I know I don't always uses proper grammar and will try to do better, as far as things like unconditional and unequivocal, etc.

But after all of that I think we should be together as brothers and sisters in Christ and I think that really does mean supporting those who are Jewish who have converted and do believe Jesus is the Messiah and Savior, so I hope my comments have not offended any of them here.

July 20, 2005

Is support of the modern nation state of Israel a condition of salvation, and what does it mean to stand with Israel?

No ,support for Israel is not condition of salvation, and no one said it was. Rather the way one treats Israel could be indicative of where one stands with the Lord.

Christian Zionists stand with Israel in its struggle against the maniacal enemies who call for Israel's destruction. Israel is home to nearly 6 million Jews, who are surrounded by 500 million Muslims; the majority of whom long for Israel to be destroyed. Israel has been subjected to 5 wars instigated by the Arab world, and has been terrorized day and night for the last 57 years by cowardly Arab terrorists who strike primarily at the most vulnerable members of Israeli society.

Christian Zionists stand with Israel against the Arab-friendly media that paints Israel's retaliation against terrorism as being the source of the problem. Regularly, Israel is maligned in the media for responding to terrorism as if the response is morally equivalent to the terrorists' actions. Many are unwilling to make the necessary moral distinction between terrorism and legitimate military countermeasures used against terrorism.

Part of standing with Israel means that we stand against those who hold Israel to a unreasonably hight standard of conduct. Many who criticize Israel's actions against terrorism, would themselves react in a much more harsh and ferocious manner were they facing a similar threat.

We stand against those who claim that Israel is the worst human rights violator on the planet when Israel's enemies' track records are, in fact, worse.

Smalcald · July 20, 2005

Is support of the modern nation state of Israel a condition of salvation, and what does it mean to stand with Israel?

No ,support for Israel is not condition of salvation, and no one said it was. Rather the way one treats Israel could be indicative of where one stands with the Lord.

Christian Zionists stand with Israel in its struggle against the maniacal enemies who call for Israel's destruction. Israel is home to nearly 6 million Jews, who are surrounded by 500 million Muslims; the majority of whom long for Israel to be destroyed. Israel has been subjected to 5 wars instigated by the Arab world, and has been terrorized day and night for the last 57 years by cowardly Arab terrorists who strike primarily at the most vulnerable members of Israeli society.

Christian Zionists stand with Israel against the Arab-friendly media that paints Israel's retaliation against terrorism as being the source of the problem. Regularly, Israel is maligned in the media for responding to terrorism as if the response is morally equivalent to the terrorists' actions. Many are unwilling to make the necessary moral distinction between terrorism and legitimate military countermeasures used against terrorism.

Part of standing with Israel means that we stand against those who hold Israel to a unreasonably hight standard of conduct. Many who criticize Israel's actions against terrorism, would themselves react in a much more harsh and ferocious manner were they facing a similar threat.

We stand against those who claim that Israel is the worst human rights violator on the planet when Israel's enemies' track records are, in fact, worse.

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