Will God give seven days warning before the Rapture as He warned Noah ?

[iamlamad]

Just now, dhchristian said:

This SHOULD cast more light on this verse RE: Antichrists...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Now mind you I am not saying you are antichrist for holding this opinion, I am saying antichrists are those who depart from the Body, If they were a true believer they would never depart... Never is a big word.

I agree, this verse at least hints very strongly that they were not "of us." yet, in the parable of the tares, some received the word with gladness, but thorns (cares of the world) choked out the word.) this would seem to say they were never born again. But being born agian is SO EASY. I think many get born again, but the cares of life cause them to turn away.

Let me end with this: ONLY GOD knows if someone truly got born again. And again, ONLY GOD knows if in someone's heart they choose by an act of their own will to walk away. All I can say is, Heb. 6 tells us, IF they do walk away (because it is possible) then they are lost.

Why would God have included that passage in Hebrews if such a thing were impossible?

I conclude this argument has been ongoing for centuries and we will not solve it here.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Therefore I disagree: most translations are on my side of this discussion.  It is not "if they can" but rather if they DO...

 

Just now, dhchristian said:

This SHOULD cast more light on this verse RE: Antichrists...

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Now mind you I am not saying you are antichrist for holding this opinion, I am saying antichrists are those who depart from the Body, If they were a true believer they would never depart... Never is a big word.

Do You see it yet? Wheat and tares? 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Why would God have included that passage in Hebrews if such a thing were impossible?

Because of theme of the Book of Hebrews. The finishing of Our faith. Like I said, We have doubts, all of us do, but when we make them a doctrine we become paralyzed. we need to move away from doubting the finished Work of Christ on the Cross. To rely on our own strength of will, or not relying on God's strength Is to Lack Faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God. Conditional security is a doctrine That is built on the lack of faith and Doubt, Eternal Security is a doctrine built on faith, and faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)  

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, Billiards Ball said:

What are your goals for our conversation? What is it that you would like me to do?

I want to see how you read Revelation: it seems you think the story is told twice.

Here is how I read it:

1 thes 4:

1: Jesus comes FOR His bride

2: the dead in Christ rise  - causing a worldwide earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction

3. the earth begins to shake

4. In the same moment of time, two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get raptured and escape God's wrath - those in darkness GET His wrath.

5. Those in Christ are gathering and on their way to meet Christ in the clouds.

6. Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake is worldwide - because the dead in Christ are worldwide. The Sun turns dark, the moon turns red.

7. THE DAY of the Lord starts with this earth quake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake  / sudden destruction

In Revelation this will take place a moment before the 6th seal: rapture first, then sudden destruction earthquake of the 6th seal.  But the "tribulation" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal - I am guessing ten days later (the ten days of awe).

8. Next will come the first 6 trumpet judgments as the 70th week gets underway.

9. Just days before the midpoint, the man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies: the city will be trampled for 42 months.  The Two witnesses show up and begin - just 3.5 days before the midpoint.

10. Then the 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint. The Kingdoms of the word are given to Jesus Christ.

11. A second or two later, 12:6 takes place and those in Judea begin to flee.

12: As those in Judea begin to flee, Michael is going after Satan to cats him down.

13. John sees the beast arising.

14. God sends three angels to warn people to worship God, Babylon is fallen is fallen, and not to take the mark.

15. The false prophet shows up and the image is erected. The mark is created and now enforcement begins: any who refuse to bow will lose their head.

16. the beheaded begin to show up in heaven: chapter 15

17. The beast and False prophet go nuts -  on a murder rampage!  It seems - their may be no elect that will escape.

18. God pours out the vials of His wrath - Maybe the first 6 in one hour of time. this stops the days great tribulation: shortening the days where people are murdered because they love Jesus. TIME will go on but no tribulation associated with it. The armies of the beast are stopped. About here God turns out the lights: the sun, the moon, the stars are disappear: it is total darkness. It seems this will remain until Jesus comes.

19. The two witnesses are killed - 3.5 days before the end of the week.

20 the 7th vial is poured out. The Old Testament saints rise, along with the two witnesses (they are old Testament saints too). The days of GT are over. The entire 7oth week is over.  Jesus remains in heaven.

20: the 42 months of trampling are over: the armies of the beast move out into the valley.

20.1: the 1260 days of testifying ended 3 1/2 days previous. They were killed.

21: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven.

22: Marriage and supper are finished: Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride.  Armageddon takes place.

23: the Beast and false prophet are caught and cast into the lake of fire.

24: the 1290 days and the 1335 days comes into play about here.

THIS is John's chronology. It is the order in which these things were written. Any order other than what John wrote is myth.

I may have left out things; I just wanted to list the highlights.

I would like you to do the same. Then we can discuss differences. Or, if you would rather, point out things in this list you think are wrong, and why, and we can discuss.

[Billiards Ball]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I want to see how you read Revelation: it seems you think the story is told twice.

Here is how I read it:

1 thes 4:

1: Jesus comes FOR His bride

2: the dead in Christ rise  - causing a worldwide earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction

3. the earth begins to shake

4. In the same moment of time, two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get raptured and escape God's wrath - those in darkness GET His wrath.

5. Those in Christ are gathering and on their way to meet Christ in the clouds.

6. Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake is worldwide - because the dead in Christ are worldwide. The Sun turns dark, the moon turns red.

7. THE DAY of the Lord starts with this earth quake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake  / sudden destruction

In Revelation this will take place a moment before the 6th seal: rapture first, then sudden destruction earthquake of the 6th seal.  But the "tribulation" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal - I am guessing ten days later (the ten days of awe).

8. Next will come the first 6 trumpet judgments as the 70th week gets underway.

9. Just days before the midpoint, the man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies: the city will be trampled for 42 months.  The Two witnesses show up and begin - just 3.5 days before the midpoint.

10. Then the 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint. The Kingdoms of the word are given to Jesus Christ.

11. A second or two later, 12:6 takes place and those in Judea begin to flee.

12: As those in Judea begin to flee, Michael is going after Satan to cats him down.

13. John sees the beast arising.

14. God sends three angels to warn people to worship God, Babylon is fallen is fallen, and not to take the mark.

15. The false prophet shows up and the image is erected. The mark is created and now enforcement begins: any who refuse to bow will lose their head.

16. the beheaded begin to show up in heaven: chapter 15

17. The beast and False prophet go nuts -  on a murder rampage!  It seems - their may be no elect that will escape.

18. God pours out the vials of His wrath - Maybe the first 6 in one hour of time. this stops the days great tribulation: shortening the days where people are murdered because they love Jesus. TIME will go on but no tribulation associated with it. The armies of the beast are stopped. About here God turns out the lights: the sun, the moon, the stars are disappear: it is total darkness. It seems this will remain until Jesus comes.

19. The two witnesses are killed - 3.5 days before the end of the week.

20 the 7th vial is poured out. The Old Testament saints rise, along with the two witnesses (they are old Testament saints too). The days of GT are over. The entire 7oth week is over.  Jesus remains in heaven.

20: the 42 months of trampling are over: the armies of the beast move out into the valley.

20.1: the 1260 days of testifying ended 3 1/2 days previous. They were killed.

21: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven.

22: Marriage and supper are finished: Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride.  Armageddon takes place.

23: the Beast and false prophet are caught and cast into the lake of fire.

24: the 1290 days and the 1335 days comes into play about here.

THIS is John's chronology. It is the order in which these things were written. Any order other than what John wrote is myth.

I may have left out things; I just wanted to list the highlights.

I would like you to do the same. Then we can discuss differences. Or, if you would rather, point out things in this list you think are wrong, and why, and we can discuss.

We are still very close to total agreement, based on the above.

My concern is that you are continuing to address points I didn't bring up (putting words in my mouth), while not answering my questions or comments.

I'm a fundamentalist and we need more than Bible study to know a thing, we need prayer. I'll start:

Lord Jesus, I hope I'm wrong about the prewrath view. I would love to miss the tribulation personally. If I'm wrong, please show me. If my brother is wrong, millions of Christians may be shaken when the rapture fails to happen before tribulation and martyrdom. I know you would use that to sift believers, Lord, so that's okay, too, you give both of us peace and love that passes knowledge.

Jesus, I remain convinced that every word, even every letter of the 66 is inspired. Convict my conscience about prophecy, Lord, so I may understand and use my knowledge to help win souls and disciple them.

Thank you, Jesus.

[iamlamad]

Just now, dhchristian said:

Because of theme of the Book of Hebrews. The finishing of Our faith. Like I said, We have doubts, all of us do, but when we make them a doctrine we become paralyzed. we need to move away from doubting the finished Work of Christ on the Cross. To rely on our own strength of will, or not relying on God's strength Is to Lack Faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God. Conditional security is a doctrine That is built on the lack of faith and Doubt, Eternal Security is a doctrine built on faith, and faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1)  

Believing verses in the bible is not doubting! I have faith God will never let go of me. I don't doubt that. But I cannot ignore all the verses Arminius uses to bring up.  I cannot ignore verses that say if we don't forgive then neither will God forgive us? I cannot ignore verses that say, for example, liars cannot get into heaven.

It would seem you think a true believer would never harbor unforgiveness. Or somehow you think a true believe can harbor unforgivenenss and still go to heaven. This is not any kind of lack of faith! It is the word of God!  it is just different verses than you use.

Is knowing the verse that if we don't forgive, then God won't forgive us - is that "conditional security?" Maybe it is. All believer's security is conditional upon them hearing the words of God and DOING them. Otherwise their house is build on sand. You would say they must not have been born again. I simply disagree.

You know what the truth of our disagreements are here? NO ONE can con God! He knows what is in the heart. If someone is born again and thinks their sin is too small for God to notice, the truth is, GOD DOES. If they get into sin far enough they quit running to 1 John 1:9, they are in serious danger of losing their trip to heaven. I don't think you can find a verse anywhere that God will allow sin into heaven.  What am I saying? If the heart is right, God won't charge that sin to them. If they are trying to con God, He will charge it to them.  It all comes down to what is in the heart of the individual. We see these verses differently. it has nothing to do with faith or a lack thereof. Eternal Security is really found here: It is indeed in the bible; just not in those two words:

2 Pet. 1:

⁵ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

⁶ And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

⁷ And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

⁸ For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

⁹ But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

¹⁰ Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

¹¹ For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Question: what happens if people DON'T do these things? It would seem they COULD fall.

[iamlamad]

39 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

We are still very close to total agreement, based on the above.

My concern is that you are continuing to address points I didn't bring up (putting words in my mouth), while not answering my questions or comments.

I'm a fundamentalist and we need more than Bible study to know a thing, we need prayer. I'll start:

Lord Jesus, I hope I'm wrong about the prewrath view. I would love to miss the tribulation personally. If I'm wrong, please show me. If my brother is wrong, millions of Christians may be shaken when the rapture fails to happen before tribulation and martyrdom. I know you would use that to sift believers, Lord, so that's okay, too, you give both of us peace and love that passes knowledge.

Jesus, I remain convinced that every word, even every letter of the 66 is inspired. Convict my conscience about prophecy, Lord, so I may understand and use my knowledge to help win souls and disciple them.

Thank you, Jesus.

I am free to bring up points - so are you.

Ask a question; I will do my best to answer it.  I really try not to miss questions.

If we are "very close" how could you write " I agree that Revelation is a "two telling" like Genesis."

Please show us the first telling vs the second telling.

Please, SHOW US a prewrath parenthesis?

Could you agree with this: Any event listed in a given chapter of Revelation will come AFTER the events of a previous chapter, and before the events of a later chapter. the only exception would be a parenthesis.

I repent of putting works in your mouth. Perhaps we will find, you really are pretrib, but just choose to call yourself prewrath!

I agree with your prayer: Lord, if I am in error about things I write, I am certainly open to being corrected. Please help me read your word with no preconceptions. Amen.

Edited September 24, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

If they can is qualified by the "it is impossible" at the beginning of the sentence.

 

What is impossible? To fall away? NO! What is impossible is IF they fall away it is impossible to renew them unto repentance.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Your Stretching now...

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6;37)

You are Putting the free will of Man over the sovereignty of God. Yes, We choose by our will to come to Him, But he will not cast them out because Faith is the surrender of our will to His Will. The Only Part of your statement I agree with is "he will never leave a believer". If they depart from they were never a true believer in the first place. 

I want to make another comment here: God is of course all powerful, but He has given humans a free will and the right of choice; therefore God CHOOSES not to override the will of a human. Therefore, the free will of man AND the sovereignty of God are both in play.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Having issues with Internet connection here, so sorry I am breaking this into a second part, wanted to make sure you got the first. 

Apostasy. The falling away. The Falling away that is prophesied in scripture, is speaking of a falling away from the Truth. This is a corporate falling away, and not to be misunderstood as falling away from salvation. God KEEPS those who are HIS Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, (Jude 1:24)

Jesus Even affirms this in John 6. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:37-40)

Yet later in that chapter he alludes to One of the 12 being a Devil (Judas Iscariot), saying he chose him to be one of the 12 to fulfill scripture.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father....Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? (John 6;64-65, 70)

What this tells of is the Tares that are in the field which is Planted by God. These Tares will be harvested out from amongst the body first, as Judgment begins with the House of God (1 Peter 4;17) They are the ones which will fall away from the Truth. Up until the falling away they are allowed to remain alongside the wheat.

Which are you, a Tare, or the wheat? Are you Sure? (Reflective Questions for all who read) That is what assurance is all about. 

Tares are unbelievers. but a few could be a believer who turned away.