Will God give seven days warning before the Rapture as He warned Noah ?

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Good thinking. Turns a lot of man-ology right on its head. We just are not sure about this and so many of our end times scenarios are flawed.

Suffice to say we are saved, and don't preach to unknowing believers a false ending... 

No flaws in the pretrib rapture, for it is the truth of scripture.  Those "taken" where the vultures show up is of course speaking of the parable of the tares. Their spirits will be yanked right out of their bodies and cast into hell, and their bodies fall and left for the buzzards.

However, the very definition of harpadzo  ( harpagesometha ) is to be "taken." For sure then, some that will be taken will be caught up with Jesus in the air.

Another note: of all the groups of people in Revelation, the rapture will be the largest: perhaps 50 generations of believers. of course the first few generations were not so large, but the last few were VERY large. It is going to number in the many billions. No  wonder John wrote it was a crowd too large to number! Also note, John saw that crowd in heaven BEFORE He even started the 70th week. The bible is clearly pretrib.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

I find some truth in the idea. 

I also see determinism in the doctrine.

If we make a choice for Jesus, we confess He is the Lord and we believe God raised Him from the dead, then it seems to me we can also make a choice to turn away if we like. Not that we would. The option must be there if the choice for the Lord is free will action. 

Adam and Eve saw the Lord everyday. They made a choice to turn away and were punished for it, we all are.

If remain trusting the Lord in love and truth there is no outside influence that can remove us from His house, His care, and or His protection. Only a personal decision on the individuals part can do that.

So I guess the answer is yes. And no.

Are you a lawyer? Maybe a politician! ROFL!
My answer is a very clear NO. OSAS is not truth.  Good point in free will. "whosoever WILL may come." if man "won't" then God won't force him. He may try to persuade people, as in Paul on the road to Damascus, or Jonah in the whale.

On the other hand, it is extremely difficult to get out from under God's saving grace. I think one would have to be a mature Christian.

Edited September 24, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, DustyRoad said:

Of course death is scary, but this is where we overcome as he overcame. If you'll read through the messages to the seven churches in the book of Revelation paying attention to what the Lord promises to each one, you'll arrive at the seven promises of Jesus Christ to us all. There's no room for doubt that we might suffer for the sake of Christ; just as we should always be ready for his coming, we should also be willing to endure until the end. It seems like a hard thing but I'm assured that death won't last forever!

We must stay ready for Jesus coming FOR His church, but keeping our lamps full of oil: communing with God on a daily basis.  We certainly don't want God to say to us, "I don't know you" because we never fellowship with Him!

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

OSAS is not truth. 

Those who have surrendered their will to God's will are the ones who are born again. They have eternal security, because....

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

There is no turning back... Many so called Christians are still in a constant struggle of wills hence so much of religion is done by the will of Man, and churches are the constructs of man. The True Christian and the true church made up of Christians are built up in the Will of God. There are three wills at work in every person, and the sooner we turn from the will of the flesh, and the will of man to the will of God the sooner we will have that blessed assurance, which comes from knowing we are bought and paid for by the blood of The son of God, and are a possession of His to do with as he wills.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13) 

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luke 22;42)

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1 John 2:15-17)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Rev 3:21-22)

[Billiards Ball]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Many people THINK that is what Paul's meaning was and is, but I disagree. KJV did a very poor job of translating there. Did you notice that in verse 3b in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS (as in was) revealed? But in verses 6-8 we know he cannot be revealed until the One restraining is "taken out of the way." Therefore, logic forces us to realize, somewhere in verse 3a the restraining forces is (right then) taken out of the way.  The only possibility is in Paul's use of the word Apostasia. Somewhere hidden in the meaning of that word is the restraining force removed and taken out of the way, so the man of sin can be revealed.

Did you know that the first several translations into English used the word "departing?" "that day:" that is the day of the Lord, cannot come until something happens first: the departing. Since the theme of the passage is about the gathering (or departing of the church from earth) That is a very good translation. Paul's meaning then is clear: When someone sees the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is God, then they will KNOW that "the Day" has started and they are now IN IT.  But the man of sin cannot do that until something happens first: of course, the departing of the church. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit working through the church. But at the rapture, all the people the Holy Spirit can work through will be GONE: taken out of the way.  There will then be no one at that moment on the earth through whom the Holy Spirit can work. The restraining force then is "taken out of the way."

 

Sorry, but you are miles off (actually centuries off) in Revelation. You missed the intent of the Author in chapter's 4 & 5.  God showed John a throne room with Jesus ABSENT: not seen at the right hand of the Father. Then God showed Him the Holy Spirit there in the throne room, when we would have expected Him to be sent down. Then God showed John a search for one worthy to take the book - but that search ended in failure - showing us that at that moment in time, Jesus was still on earth and had not yet risen from the dead. Next, Jesus WAS found worthy - showing us that He had just risen from the dead. Then John saw Jesus suddenly appear in the throne room and send the Holy Spirit down: all this pointing to TIMING: WHEN did Jesus get the book into His hands? Of course as soon as He ascended: 32 AD. All this is the CONTEXT of the first seal, showing us that this seal is the CHURCH, sent out with the GOSPEL.

Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel: he would be allowed to start wars, famines, use pestilences, and wild animals. John shows us that these three, the Red Horse and rider, the Black Horse and rider, and the Pale Horse and rider right together, leaving the White horse out of their mix.

Finally, seal five is for the CHURCH AGE. Any martyr of the 70th week would know they have only to wait out the rest of the 7 years. But take STephen for example: he would have had NO IDEA how long it would be until God would begin judgment. In fact, He would have to wait out the entire church age!  God knows the total number of church age martyrs - people put to death as they were - and when that number is finished, the church age ends.  But it is going to be the pretrib rapture that ends the church age. Paul is clear, the rapture will trigger the Day of the Lord. They are back to back events that cannot be separated. It will be rapture / wrath. WE get "salvation" as in being raptured, but THEY get sudden destruction - at the same moment of time.

When God raises the dead, that resurrection will cause a worldwide earthquake (see Matthew 27: "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened") which earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. There is only ONE possible place for Paul's rapture in Revelation, and that is just a moment before the 6th seal. It was no mistake then that John got to see the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter - as the great crowd, too large to number.

What most Prewrathers miss: the 70th week or "the trib'" does not start until the 30 minutes of silence at the 7th seal.  (The 70th week is marked by the 7's.)  They also miss the fact that the first seals are NOT IN the 70th week.

You will find, some day, that Revelation is in perfect Chronological order, outside of parentheses. However, that being said, from chapter 12 to chapter 16, there will be 5 parallel paths which are countdowns to the end of the week. It would be impossible to write of 5 parallel paths in any kind of Chronology. God however can do the impossible: He staggered the starts of these 5 countdowns to the end: they all don't start at the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint: the 42 months of trampling will begin perhaps days before the midpoint (7th trumpet) and the 1260 days of testifying will begin just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. The 1260 days of fleeing will begin seconds after the midpoint, and the 42 months of authority will begin last. Each of these will be a countdown to the end of the week.

Sorry, but Paul tells us the rapture will come SUDDENLY, when people are thinking "peace and safety." there is going to be NO WARNING.

Pre-wrath agrees, the Spirit will restrain until the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is a blessed day for us, a fearful day for unbelievers, since the sun turns dark, the moon turns red and the bowls are poured out after the rapture. I also agree the rapture is just before/is the sixth seal. We are disagreeing as to when the sixth seal is.

I also agree that Paul tells us the rapture will come suddenly while unbelievers are thinking peace and safety, and Jesus tells us while when we are in prison, lifting up our heads for our redemption draws near.

I agree that Revelation is a "two telling" like Genesis in perfect chronological order. I already said all eschatons are in perfect chronological order.

Did you know Daniel's "1335th day" is Channukah, when the Temple gets cleansed?

[Billiards Ball]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Perhaps you don't know, or maybe you do: Van Kampan called Rosenthal and said, "I've found it!" He mistakenly thought he had found the "secret" to understanding the end times. He read in Matthew 24 and that the signs in the sun and moon would come AFTER the days of Great tribulation, but he also read in Joel 2 that the signs in the sun and moon would come Before the Day of the Lord.  This then, in his mind (Van Kampan) set up a time line that is now the timeline of all "Prewrathers."

The problem with this? It is fake, false, and not the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, these are TWO DIFFERENT signs: one comes as the sign of the Day of the Lord, as seen in Joel 2 and at the 6th seal, but the other comes 7 plus years later after the days of GT are over. This is seen in Matthew 24 and in Joel 3. They are different signs. The sign for the Day of the Lord has a blood red moon, which we see at eclipses - and the sun black as sackcloth (very black material) again speaking of how the sun appears during a total eclipse.  Note carefully this is a SEEN moon and SEEN sun. How would one know the moon was red unless they SAW it? 

On the other hand, after the days of GT,  It is speaking of total darkness. Neither the sun or moon can be seen. Thesee are two different signs at two different times for two different purposes.

By the way, congratulations on writing a book. I also have written one and an working on another.

I wrote: " John does not start the days of GT until late in chapter 14 or the start of chapter 15. "  I was referring to John in Revelation. Notice that the beheaded don't start showing up in Revelation until chapter 15. Note also the warning not to take the mark is in chapter 14 - showing us that the mark and image is not yet ready to be enforced at that time. God would not give the warning after the fact.

Prewrathers have two choices: change their belief system or rearrange Revelation to fit. We don't have that kind of authority! God wrote Revelation HIS WAY and it is right as written: John's chronology cannot be improved.

I didn't write that book, I edited it. I've written other books on other subjects.

I didn't say "I believe Van Kampan". I said multiple authors came to the same conclusions via independent studies.

Revelation reads chronologically with pre-wrath. I don't mind discussing the issues, but that isn't an issue.

[iamlamad]

4 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Those who have surrendered their will to God's will are the ones who are born again. They have eternal security, because....

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)

There is no turning back... Many so called Christians are still in a constant struggle of wills hence so much of religion is done by the will of Man, and churches are the constructs of man. The True Christian and the true church made up of Christians are built up in the Will of God. There are three wills at work in every person, and the sooner we turn from the will of the flesh, and the will of man to the will of God the sooner we will have that blessed assurance, which comes from knowing we are bought and paid for by the blood of The son of God, and are a possession of His to do with as he wills.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13) 

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (Luke 22;42)

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1 John 2:15-17)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Rev 3:21-22)

People can always pick a favorite verse here and there and form a doctrine. It may or may not be truth. True doctrine must agree with all verses in the bible.

Someone hears the gospel message: they are told if they believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and if they confess Jesus as Lord, they will be saved.  (Romans 10:9 & 10)

Is that scripture true, or did Paul come up with that on his own? I submit it is TRUTH and the Holy Spirit assisted Paul in writing those words.

Therefore someone can become born again and be a part of the body of Christ on earth, part of the universal church found on earth and in heaven, and at that moment in time may or may not have surrendered their will to God. They are baby Christians.

Do you leave room in your theories for baby Christians?

It would be extremely difficult for a baby Christian to be lost. God has great mercy to baby Christians. He musts, for many Christians who have been born again have not grown up and matured in Christ.

There is no turning back...   now let's compare with scripture: 

Luke 9:62

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

 

Is Jesus saying this is impossible? I think not.

Hebrews 6:⁴ For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

⁵ And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

⁶ If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

⁷ For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

⁸ But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Is Paul saying it is impossible to fall away? Certainly not.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Billiards Ball said:

I didn't write that book, I edited it. I've written other books on other subjects.

I didn't say "I believe Van Kampan". I said multiple authors came to the same conclusions via independent studies.

Revelation reads chronologically with pre-wrath. I don't mind discussing the issues, but that isn't an issue.

The issue is this: is the current prewrath thought consistent with the written word of God? I say no. I think pretrib thought comes MUCH closer to the truth of scripture.

Current prewrath thought and theories have the church going through the "trib" but not through God's wrath. That is silly because the bible shows us God's wrath begins at the opening salvo of "the trib" or the 70th week and continues on through the entire week.  Paul is clear, God will not make any appointments with His wrath for US, those in Christ. Meaning? we are out of here before His wrath. John is very clear that the day of wrath will begin at the 6th seal. Therefore the rapture MUST come before the 6th seal.

Current prewrath theory has the "trib" or the 70th week starting at the first seal. This is error. The real 70th week will begin at the 7th seal.  This truth determines whether the rapture will be pretrib or not. Since John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN before the 70th week begins, the truth is the rapture will be pretrib AND prewrath.

We will probably disagree.

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

People can always pick a favorite verse here and there and form a doctrine. It may or may not be truth. True doctrine must agree with all verses in the bible.

Someone hears the gospel message: they are told if they believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, and if they confess Jesus as Lord, they will be saved.  (Romans 10:9 & 10)

Is that scripture true, or did Paul come up with that on his own? I submit it is TRUTH and the Holy Spirit assisted Paul in writing those words.

Therefore someone can become born again and be a part of the body of Christ on earth, part of the universal church found on earth and in heaven, and at that moment in time may or may not have surrendered their will to God. They are baby Christians.

Do you leave room in your theories for baby Christians?

It would be extremely difficult for a baby Christian to be lost. God has great mercy to baby Christians. He musts, for many Christians who have been born again have not grown up and matured in Christ.

There is no turning back...   now let's compare with scripture: 

Luke 9:62

And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

 

 

Is Jesus saying this is impossible? I think not.

Hebrews 6:⁴ For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

⁵ And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

⁶ If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

⁷ For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

⁸ But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Is Paul saying it is impossible to fall away? Certainly not.

My point is that if you are still questioning eternal security, you are a babe in Christ. Assurance Is something we come to KNOW Intrinsically because of our relationship with him. Because we have learned HE is Faithful. When We learn he is Faithful, we learn to trust completely in His Word. His Word says...Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)

Question for you, Do you think when we receive Christ Jesus we immediately recognize our sonship in Christ Jesus, or is there some time involved in coming to that understanding? A serious question for you.

[Billiards Ball]

20 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The issue is this: is the current prewrath thought consistent with the written word of God? I say no. I think pretrib thought comes MUCH closer to the truth of scripture.

Current prewrath thought and theories have the church going through the "trib" but not through God's wrath. That is silly because the bible shows us God's wrath begins at the opening salvo of "the trib" or the 70th week and continues on through the entire week.  Paul is clear, God will not make any appointments with His wrath for US, those in Christ. Meaning? we are out of here before His wrath. John is very clear that the day of wrath will begin at the 6th seal. Therefore the rapture MUST come before the 6th seal.

Current prewrath theory has the "trib" or the 70th week starting at the first seal. This is error. The real 70th week will begin at the 7th seal.  This truth determines whether the rapture will be pretrib or not. Since John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN before the 70th week begins, the truth is the rapture will be pretrib AND prewrath.

We will probably disagree.

Actually, we completely agree again, but place the timing of the seals and bowls differently. I'm glad you aren't amillennial or etc. as well. Thank you.