What Noah Could Have Said But Didn't

[Guest shiloh357]

1 Chorinthians 13:13 AND NOW ABIDE FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, THESE THREE, BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

This is my conclusion. Faith without works cannot be called faith. Faith without works is dead and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all. Faith must work, it must produce, it must bevisible. Verbal faith is not enough, You can deny Jesus by your works, if you deny Jesus he will deny you before the Father. Love is the greatest of all even greater than faith.

Ezekiel 18:24

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? ALL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS which he has done SHALL NOT BE REMBERED BECAUSE OF HIS UNFAITHFULNESS OF WHICH HE IS GUILTY AND THE SIN WICH HE HAS COMMITTED, BECAUSE OF THEM HE SHALL DIE

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Therein lies the rub. No one is advocating faith without works. We are advocating salvation by grace thruogh faith which produces corresponding actions reflective of the work or grace alread wrought in the heart of the believer. No one is saying that Christians do not need to to good works, but that works do not produce, contribute to, or maintain salvation. Salvation is Jesus, plus nothing. Even in the OT, salvation was never by the Law, but by faith in the Messiah who was to come, whom the Law pointed to.

[HILL]

We are not disputing that salvation is from Jesus. But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds.

God does not make us do good. God will put us in the position to do them, the rest is up to you.

We do good because we love Jesus because He told us to but He is not going to make us do good. He wants us to be doers and not just hearers.

My dad says he doesnt do certain things because God hasn't liad it on his heart to do them. Why does God need to lay something on ones heart when Jesus said to do it? We have it in writing. That is why we have the bible.

God guides us by our faith, We still have a duty to listen to Him.

It is not a free ride. You dont just believe and that is it. We need to be doers.

[Guest shiloh357]

We are not disputing that salvation is from Jesus. But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds.

God does not make us do good. God will put us in the position to do them, the rest is up to you.

We do good because we love Jesus because He told us to but He is not going to make us do good. He wants us to be doers and not just hearers.

My dad says he doesnt do certain things because God hasn't liad it on his heart to do them. Why does God need to lay something on ones heart when Jesus said to do it? We have it in writing. That is why we have the bible.

God guides us by our faith, We still have a duty to listen to Him.

It is not a free ride. You dont just believe and that is it. We need to be doers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, no one is saying that we should be disobedient to Jesus. That is not the issue. Perhaps you need to read the thread. You are not even addressing the issue under discussion.

We are not debating whether or not we should obey Jesus, and perform works of righteousness as commanded. We all agree that obedience is part of being a Christian. The question raised by this thread is whether or not our works determine whether or not we are granted eternal life. My contention is that works to do not contriute to salvation but are the outworking, or demonstration of my faith. My works show that I am saved.

Please try to stay on topic.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Suzanne said:

Fisher of Men has not once denied Jesus Christ in what he has posted.

And yet that is exactly what he is doing. He denounces the sufficiency of Yeshua's work by his claim that works are necessary for the obtaining/maintaining of salvation.

Deny the work of Christ, deny Christ. If you worship a Christ who's gracious sacrifice of atonement was not able to accomplish his Father's will, then you do not worship the Son of God.

"Faith without works is dead"...how can people find this so contentious? If no works are evident, the person's faith is clearly dead, this is how a person can be justified, if you see (FRUITFUL) works, then the person you see is one of faith. Faith does not save you, for faith can be placed in anything, even - as James says - the demons have faith. The crux of the matter is WHAT you place your faith in, more importantly, WHO you place your faith in and what works come from it. Demons have faith and they have works, but their faith is misplaced and their works are evil. It is FAITH IN YESHUA - FULLY which saves you and the works that come from this faith which justify you.

James gives you a very clear formula for judging the spiritual needs of the people.

No works=no faith...........we must educated such people, PROPERLY, for their spiritual well-being.

Not ONCE does the bible say that we are saved by works. And if you really do doubt, then listen to Paul and Silas:

Acts 16:29 Then he [the prison guard] called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

You cannot make a more clear and simple statement than this.

Arguments for the case that works are essential to obtaining/maintaining salvation (including water baptism) are always based on dubious misrepresetaition or varied interpretation of "difficult" passages. The simple truth of salvation by faith in the sufficient sacrifice of Yeshua is always upheld by the most simple statements regarding the issue and this same truth always has a counterpoint and a valid, reasonable alternative interpretation to the pro-works lobbyists in the "difficult" passages.

Fisher, I shall say this again for the sake of your eternal rest, if you do not believe in the sufficiency of Christ, you do not believe in Christ. If you are to be saved, you must believe in him FULLY. You have said, Fisher, in another post that you have always had doubt as to whether or not you have been saved...perhaps this false belief, this misguided trust in perversed doctrine is the reason that you do have these doubts. Give it some serious thought....

[apothanein kerdos]

If I say I have a factory, but no merchandise to prove it, how can anyone be sure that I have a factory? However, if I claim to have a factory and show merchandise that has been produced in the factory, then no one can doubt that I own this factory. Even if production is low, or at times stops for a season, the fact that I have a factory does not go away.

Faith is the same way. If I say I have faith but no works, then how can I truly have faith? From faith comes works.

[HILL]

We are not disputing that salvation is from Jesus. But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds.

God does not make us do good. God will put us in the position to do them, the rest is up to you.

We do good because we love Jesus because He told us to but He is not going to make us do good. He wants us to be doers and not just hearers.

My dad says he doesnt do certain things because God hasn't liad it on his heart to do them. Why does God need to lay something on ones heart when Jesus said to do it? We have it in writing. That is why we have the bible.

God guides us by our faith, We still have a duty to listen to Him.

It is not a free ride. You dont just believe and that is it. We need to be doers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, no one is saying that we should be disobedient to Jesus. That is not the issue. Perhaps you need to read the thread. You are not even addressing the issue under discussion.

We are not debating whether or not we should obey Jesus, and perform works of righteousness as commanded. We all agree that obedience is part of being a Christian. The question raised by this thread is whether or not our works determine whether or not we are granted eternal life. My contention is that works to do not contriute to salvation but are the outworking, or demonstration of my faith. My works show that I am saved.

Please try to stay on topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What I have posted here is exactly what he is talking about.

But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds.

Our works are essential.

Im sorry you dont understand.

[HILL]

If you can deny Jesus by your works, it sounds like works play a much larger role than you want to believe

[apothanein kerdos]

If works can case us to deny Jesus, then none of us are going to heaven.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Our works are essential.

Righteous works are a natural extention of faith. They are essential in that they show whether someone has saving faith. They are not essential in obtaining salvation.

Edited June 27, 2005 by NewPilgrim

[HILL]

I'm done. I dont enjoy arguing.

God bless you all