Coliseum Posted October 4, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 1,123 Content Per Day: 0.65 Reputation: 2,055 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/07/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 4, 2019 I think it is fair to say we cannot understand it in its completeness. Charles Spurgeon said of those two lines, “I cannot make them meet, but you cannot make them cross.” I liken it to a metaphor of a four-sided building. If you stand back, at any point around the building you can only see two sides, but the other two cannot be seen. Only God, above the building, can see all four sides. Yes, the metaphor is not perfect, nor can it be---and that is the point. We are not sufficient in ourselves to describe the dilemma perfectly, no more than we are able to completely grasp the Trinity or the Rapture. Nor does God expect us to, but by faith we believe Him. Dr. Criswell shares: "My whole life is bound up and enmeshed with a plan, a purpose, and a choice into which I do not enter at all. Freedom of choice belongs to moral accountability—I am morally responsible. But there is also in this world a sovereignty which is greater than my life, greater than history, and greater even than the creation of mankind. Those two things, the sovereignty of God and the free moral agency of mankind, are two lines of development that we cannot reconcile." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2019 12 hours ago, Coliseum said: I think it is fair to say we cannot understand it in its completeness. Charles Spurgeon said of those two lines, “I cannot make them meet, but you cannot make them cross.” I liken it to a metaphor of a four-sided building. If you stand back, at any point around the building you can only see two sides, but the other two cannot be seen. Only God, above the building, can see all four sides. Yes, the metaphor is not perfect, nor can it be---and that is the point. We are not sufficient in ourselves to describe the dilemma perfectly, no more than we are able to completely grasp the Trinity or the Rapture. Nor does God expect us to, but by faith we believe Him. Dr. Criswell shares: "My whole life is bound up and enmeshed with a plan, a purpose, and a choice into which I do not enter at all. Freedom of choice belongs to moral accountability—I am morally responsible. But there is also in this world a sovereignty which is greater than my life, greater than history, and greater even than the creation of mankind. Those two things, the sovereignty of God and the free moral agency of mankind, are two lines of development that we cannot reconcile." Hello Coliseum. Are you looking for ideas? Or did you want to just share? It is late. I'm going offline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coliseum Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 133 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 1,123 Content Per Day: 0.65 Reputation: 2,055 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/07/2019 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 5, 2019 Brother, I have exhausted myself with ideas, some better than others. This is my final conclusion that I have arrived at in the above. Certainly I am willing to listen to all people's thoughts and comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailyprayerwarrior Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 219 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 284 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/03/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2019 Great post Coliseum. I've heard it similarly related to a parade. If you watch the parade along the roadside, you can only see the floats as they go by. All things being equal, you can't see the start of the parade nor the end. However, if you're in a helicopter, you can see the whole parade - from start to finish, and everything in between. God is in the helicopter - so to speak - and we are only watching the parade along the roadside. God knows the end from the beginning and we only know life in a linear sense. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,257 Content Per Day: 3.32 Reputation: 16,675 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2019 It is our free choice to resist God, to sin and to be stubborn. It is just a lot smarter to choose to be happy and do things God's way. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,994 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,692 Content Per Day: 11.75 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2019 That is one thing every human being has to do who is on this earth. They need to make a choice where they want to spend their eternity. In heaven or in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 962 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,718 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,112 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted October 5, 2019 Romans 6:17–18: “Thanks be to God.” That is so important. And that is the way we should live as believers, with a heart brimming like this. “Thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” -John Piper from short presentation at https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/is-god-sovereign-over-my-free-will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neighbor Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 962 Topics Per Day: 0.35 Content Count: 13,718 Content Per Day: 5.04 Reputation: 9,112 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/04/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/03/1885 Share Posted October 5, 2019 I find I cannot fault the presentation of John Mac Arthur, much as I may want to. It may be found on Utube and is titled "John MAcArthur-Amazing Sermon on Election" And I do find R.C. Sproul to be of interest, but not nearly as emphatic nor helpful to me as MacArthur with whom I do find agreement, even though my instinct wants to rebel against the presentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Online Share Posted October 5, 2019 (edited) This is a really interesting concept. Choice. Since God is a free being and will not be tamed, He gave us a similar IMAGE to deal with. As imagers of God (adjective and not a noun), we fall short of that wonderful gift and tend to act like rather mundane lemmings - all rushing to the same cliff. I.e. 'everyone is doing it so we had better follow...' The TULIP idea is anathema to me and so are many other theologies that do not seem to really understand the Lord and the WAY He made pure for us thru to the Holy of Holies. He is a Free and Creative Being and He created us with that thought. While there are many paradigms to illustrate this, it is really only our own minds that limit us and allow us to be forced into someone else's 'comfortable' mold. Edited October 5, 2019 by Justin Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lftc Posted October 5, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 536 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 323 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/16/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2019 Already several good posts here. I understand the dilemma that is summarized in the title of this topic. How can we concieve of a God as having complete control over everything while still giving man his choices. Unfrotunately, over the centuries the writings of prior men seeking the truth becomes the starting point for understanding. Martin Luther decided that the Roman Catholic Church had gone too far away from the scripures because of the credence given to the earlier teachings of the church. And truly what a maze it becomes when we add one mans teachings to another mans teachings and then try to understand the scriptures from the combined perspective. Martin Luther broke away based on Sola Scriptura - scripture alone. And by the time he died had built up a a significant following of people claiming Sola Scriptura and quoting Luther's teaching. Not that we should not refer to other people. But my point is that it is OK to hold other people's thoughts and summaries of scripture as propositions, not as established truth. I say that to make it clear that I mean no disrespect to Spurgeon (of whom I know some) and Criswell (whom I know not at all). As Coliseum observes, this issue is similar to the Trinity doctrine in that it is based on principles that are extrapolated from the scriptures. We see that God has various characteristics from the scriptures. From those we come to understand that God has control over all that occurs. An often referred to passage is Ephesians 1 where the word "predestined" is used several times. Yet we have numerous passages that clearly state that man has a choice. "This day choose...", "Whoever believes on him..." etc A succinct (is it possible that lftc can be succinct?) statement of the problem: How can God predestine events that happen in this life while man has a choice? If life is predestined where is the choice? I see the dichotomy as false and holding its basis in erroneous assumptions. Ephesians 1 almost always says that the believers are predestined IN CHRIST. Paul is careful to add that phrase for precise reason. God's plan from before the beginning of the world was to show his mercy through his own substitionary death, the death of the Christ. So reread that passage with the understanding that he had that plan in place. Secondly, most people that look at this accidently assume that God is not a very good planner. When I make plans, especially important plans, I often will add contingency plans, alternate plans to arrive at the same goal when uncontrollable circumstances prevent the primary plan from completing. I understand that good chess players do this (I don't play games). I personally believe that God Most High is quite capable of making the required number of contingency plans to deal with the decision points in my life. To me that is more feasible than talking to everyone in the world at the same time, which no-one seems to have a problem with. Much to the readers delight, I must stop writing at this time and go off line. Hope that was understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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