Not of works? Really?

[Guest shiloh357]

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[Trinity]

James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

This means you if you just sit around the house and you don't work, and then you pray for food you have faith that your going to be fed yet you have no works, you wont be fed!

That has nothing to do with works and salvation! these verse have nothing at all what so ever about Works and Salvation!

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Except that the question James asks is can a faith without works save a person?

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That was an Example!!! LOL

Come on

Ok, If i believe Jesus is going to save me, though i may have faith Jesus will save me, yet i do not ask Jesus to save me, will Jesus then save me? The answer is "NO!!!" plain and simple because i didn't put forth the work to ask Jesus to save me! Meaning my faith is dead!

[EricH]

James 2:14

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

This means you if you just sit around the house and you don't work, and then you pray for food you have faith that your going to be fed yet you have no works, you wont be fed!

That has nothing to do with works and salvation! these verse have nothing at all what so ever about Works and Salvation!

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Except that the question James asks is can a faith without works save a person?

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That was an Example!!! LOL

Come on

Ok, If i believe Jesus is going to save me, though i may have faith Jesus will save me, yet i do not ask Jesus to save me, will Jesus then save me? The answer is "NO!!!" plain and simple because i didn't put forth the work to ask Jesus to save me! Meaning my faith is dead!

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I agree with you that works do not save us. Where I was confused was I thought you were maintaining that James was not addressing the topic of works and faith in salvation. That confused me

[Guest shiloh357]

Mornin'.

No one is arguing that you can "earn" your way to salvation.  The point is, we ARE commanded to do good works.  Not only as "evidence" of faith, but as an act of obedience to God.

"Faith without works is dead", after all.

I'm always puzzled by those who consistently argue --- "by faith alone", especially since that is clearly NOT what the Bible teaches.

Yes, we all agree that without the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, we could not be saved.  But then we must do our part to fulfill the New Covenant.

Peace,

Fiosh

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I am sorry Fiosh, but you have no part to fulfill in the New Covenant. God is not in covenant with you. You have nothing to do with fulfilling the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is not between the Father and man. It is between the Father and His Son, Jesus. Jesus and God alone are keeping the terms of the New Covenant. You are not good enough to be in covenant with God. You are not good enough to satisfy the terms of the New Covenant.

Salvation is not Jesus, plus you. It is not Jesus plus rituals. Salvation is Jesus, plus ZERO. Works are the outgrowth of our faith. This is what James is saying in chapter two of his epistle.

[Fisher of Men]

James made it very clear that without works, a person will not be saved.

This is absolutely incorrect. If works could save then both James and Paul would have told us to follow the Law! However, Paul was abundantly clear in the book of Romans that the working out of the Law was insufficient to attain salvation.

The church is not in need of reform at all. It was the Protestant Reformation that recovered salvation by grace in the first place!

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Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!

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There you have it T&O, In the new covenant, we are not to try by our own effort as in the OT. we are to accept Christ and his word,.

knowing that our own efforts outside of Christ are a failure, we understand that the gospel offers power to enable us to change from inside. That change is not of ourself. It is a gift from God that makes us right (justifies us).

Like the Ephesians, we will have the testimony that the things we used to do we no longer do. Why? Because we would have trusted and believed on him that justifies the ungodly. The state of being right with God literally, then would be manifested in our lives as it was in the lives of the Ephesians. Eph. 2:1-3,5.

Saved means changed. If we're not changed then we must not have believed on him that justifies the ungodly. Otherwise we wouldn't be ungodly any longer; we would be justified; having repented and turned from known sins and on a daily walk with the Lord to abandon other things as he brings them to our attention.

The word "worketh" in the above verse in Rom. 4:5 relates to trying to please God under the OT system. The NT system offers power to change, which power is not of ourselves but of His Spirit. Using Rom. 4:5 to speak against "obeying the truth through the spirit" as if obeying is not what makes a person right with God, is gross heresy. It is a fulfilment of Peter's words concerning Paul's writings being wrested to the destruction of those wresting them.

The new system requires submission to Christs word so that we can be changed by that power and so be justified.

The old system did not have this. Words on stones and uncircumcised hearts didn't go very far. That's why the OT is called the ministry of condemnation. It provided basic knowledge but not power. It was weak. Rom. 8:1-4

The NT provides an edited, reformed, clarified, magnified, and fulfilled system from the old system. It is a new covenant. Some things are more strict than the OT and some from the OT have been deleted.

The major difference from the Old is that the New provides power to change the person.

As glorious as the OT was, it had no glory in this respect (concerning the ability of the New to transform and change and regenerate.)

2 Cor. 3:

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

Notice the NT is called the ministry of righteousness.

It is antichrist to deny that Jesus came to make us free from committing sin. He came to minister righteousness into the lives of those who submit to his word.

John 8:

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Edited June 25, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[EricH]

knowing that our own efforts outside of Christ are a failure, we understand that the gospel offers power to enable us to change from inside. That change is not of ourself. It is a gift from God that makes us right (justifies us).

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It is not the change that justifies us it is Christ's blood that justifies us. The change is a by-product of the justification, not a cause

[Fisher of Men]

Christ's death does not put us in right standing with God unless we submit to the instructions.

Yes, He died for us, but he has given us conditions to meet in order for his death for us to have it's effect.

Repentance is required before past sins can be forgiven.

Self denial on a daily basis is required in order to be a Christian (a follower of Christ).

It is necessary to be a Christian in order to be justified.

It is necessary to obey in order to be a Christian.

So answer this EricH:

Can a person be a non Christian and be justified?

That means he has not believed or repented or prayed; things that are necessary to be done in order to be a Christian.

The truth is that there is the blood, then there is obedience, then there is justification, then there is further obedience.

It appears you have left out the initial obedience and jumped from blood to justification.

Obedience is necessary FOR justification and after the initial justification, obedience is necessary to maintain justification because justification means right standing with God and we can't have that if we disregard his word. It was the respect to his word by repenting etc. that granted justification.

Rom. 5:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It takes acts of righteousness (faith, repentance, baptism) to get justification and having this grace upon us, we must continue in his word (righteousness) in order for grace to continue to reign. Grace reigns through righteousness.

Since abiding in Christ means "putting on Christ" which means dying to the world, if anyone who professes to be a Christian teaches that they are right with God but that their rightness is not determined by their obedience to his word, then that person is an absolute antichrist. It's probably what the Nicolatanes preached.

God hates that filthy doctrine. It says you're right but you're not realy right.

Demonic.

Edited June 25, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[Trinity]

Galatians 2:21

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law-(Meaning works), Christ died for nothing!"

[Fisher of Men]

shiloh357 wrote

I am sorry Fiosh, but you have no part to fulfill in the New Covenant. God is not in covenant with you. You have nothing to do with fulfilling the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is not between the Father and man. It is between the Father and His Son, Jesus. Jesus and God alone are keeping the terms of the New Covenant. You are not good enough to be in covenant with God. You are not good enough to satisfy the terms of the New Covenant.

Salvation is not Jesus, plus you. It is not Jesus plus rituals. Salvation is Jesus, plus ZERO. Works are the outgrowth of our faith. This is what James is saying in chapter two of his epistle.

This is a classic example of good words and fair speeches deceiving the hearts of the simple.

Fiosh, please give no heed to such evil doctrine. The power of the Holy Ghost to regenerate you to make you worthy of that life and the resurrection is what makes you good enough. That life changing power is not of yourself lest you should boast.

"A man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

"Faith without works is dead". That is one of the concluding statements to answer the question of: If a man say he has faith and has not works, can faith save him?

The answer is a big fat NO.

Concerning the life and death question of heaven or hell, life or death; "as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."

There is no salvation to those with faith without works. Their faith is no better than that of devils who know very well that Christ exists. Their faith is vain (worthless) hence it is a faith that can NOT result in salvation.

Tess,

You said in effect that if I had alternative understanding of some of the traditional interpretations of scriptures I should make them known.

That is why I started this thread.

Don't be afraid to be a critical thinker and question what you may have been taught. The written word was given so that those trying to control others by their presumed superiority over others, could be judged by this Higher Authority; the written Word.

The document at the beginning of this thread presents a sound contextual view of Eph. 2 that does not conflict with James. The just shall live by their faith, not by fear of what the multitudes will think if they refuse to accept what is widely accepted.

Here is a quote from another post that may also help give you the correct light concerning the widely misunderstood phrases of Paul concerning not being justified by the law or being in bondage to the law.

Because of the changes the NT makes from the OT, Paul says we are not under the law meaning not under the Old. He says it like this even though there are many things that are identical as far as moral obligation goes. But the numerous changes and the basic one of the changing power of the Holy Ghost being ministered by the NT, warranted Pauls decision to say we are not under the law. In no way did he say we are not under moral obligation.The primary moral obligation of Christians is to believe the record God has given of His Son. This is folowed by other moral obligations such as not killing stealing committing adultery and all other of the teachings we are to observe as Christians. Matt. 28:18-20

It is an extreme destructive heresy to take the the verses from Paul's writings concerning not being justified by the law and apply them to Christians not being justified by the NT law and system. This heresy even conflicts with those holding to the  faith only position, for faith is a new testament requirement or law.

Can they hear what I say and can they identify the extreme instability of modern Christianity? They say no man is justified by the law, (they meaning being obedient to any moral obligation), yet they agree that faith in Christ, (a moral obligation in itself) justifies them! This is past perversion.

If Christians try to obey the NT but are not mindful that they need strength from the Holy Ghost in order to do so and are going about trying to obey with that mindset and are not seeking God for the Sprit and strength, then they also are in effect under the bondage that existed under the law before Christ came.

The law ministered condemnation.

The NT ministers righteousness by the regenerative power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Cor. 3

Looking to Christ and His resurrection and understanding what it means for us is where we will find the power to overcome and have the power of godliness manifested in our lives for "great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh".  Only by having him being manifest in our flesh, the body of Christ, can godliness inhabit our earthen vessels. The way of man is not in himself. It must come from God and then there is no room for boasting. He then gets the glory for we realise it is him working in us; that we are his workmanship. Righteous living we find manifested in us is not of ourselves lest we should boast. It is not of works that we can boast of, but of works that we can boast in Him of. 

We are not in him and bearing the fruit of righteousness of ourselves but through the effectual working of the seed of his word that was sown in our hearts. His is the glory for changing us as we see in the testimony of the saved Ephesians: (Eph. 2:1-3,5,9,10)

1 Cor. 1:

30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31  That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Edited June 26, 2005 by Fisher of Men

[jc49]

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