What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."

[luigi]

23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Question: please answer it honestly according to the Word: DID God show John things that were "hereafter?"
Answer: in case you did not wish to answer: YES YES YES, God showed John MANY MANY things  - some still in OUR future!

In other words, God did EXACTLY what He said.

What part of my constant acknowledging that what John is shown in chapters 4 through 22 concerns the hereafter, as the Lord testifies to in Revelation 4:1? You are the one who has been claiming that it is not all prophesy from 95 AD and forward, but that it includes historical events prior to 95 AD. Your perspective, as I said before denies the Word. I have shown with scriptures who the woman in Revelation 12 represents, their being the saints in Daniel 7:25. I have shown with Daniel 11:30-35 where the remnant in Revelation 12, represent the saints who are not slain during the tribulation period during the abomination of desolation. And how do you respond? You respond by asking me to answer honestly if God did show John things that were in the hereafter. 

 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 

[luigi]

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No, a remnant is a group left over after any event. In this case there is only a remnant of believers on the earth after the pretrib rapture.

 

A pretrib rapture is another fallacy provided by the great deceiver Satan. There are many scriptures indicating faithful on the earth during the millennium reign. Please do not tell me there are two groups, one who is raptured away, while another group later repents, which is yet another of Satan's deceptions.

 

[luigi]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

 

This verse you quoted, just so you know, is looking back at the days when Antiochus Epiphanes was running rampant against Israel.

The data in Daniel 11 and 12, which includes Daniel 11:30-35 in which the faithful are killed in numerous ways under the reign of the abomination of desolation; when Daniel asks the Lord as to the meaning of those visions (Dan 12:8), he is told to go his way as the data was sealed till the time of the end (Dan 12:9), at which time many would then be running to and fro with knowledge and understanding of these events increasing (Dan 12:4), thereby indicating the words being unsealed. These events and the words relating to them were not unsealed in the second century BC under the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. By the way this is the third area in the bible with the description of the times described in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14, indicating them all as the same series of events during the time of the end.

Daniel 12:8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Edited October 19, 2019 by luigi

[Marilyn C]

On ‎10‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 1:06 AM, iamlamad said:

Daniel wrote perhaps 600 BC, so some of what he wrote was about his days. As for prophecy, some of what he wrote was certainly future to him then, but is history to us now, such as Daniel chapter 8 about Greece versus Persia, then the 4 divisions after Alexander died, then on to Antiochus Epiphanes. Dan. chapter 11 has some that is history to us today, and then perhaps from verse 36 onward, things future to us.

Then there is some prophecy written so as to fit something back then when it was written, and has a secondary meaning that is future prophecy. Much of the prophecy written in the Old Testament fits this category: The prophet may be prophesying of Assyria coming down to Israel to carry people away as captives, but God slips in some prophecy still future to us today.

I suspect Daniel 7 is this type of prophecy: about the ancient empires, but yet also about our future. The commentators all seem to see the ancient part of it, and ignore the future. When I read a verse like this one:

...I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. ¹² As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time...

It hints strongly to me that this is future: that not only is the Little horn (the Beast) slain, but the other beasts are concurrent with the beast: all 4 "kings" alive at the same time.

At the same time, The descriptions of these beasts certainly point back to the image of Daniel 2. And even in chapter 2, there is future: most readers believe that we are living in the time of the toes right now. And in the future THE ROCK will strike those toes and bring in the millennial kingdom. But just WHO are those "toes?" There are two legs with two feet and two sets of toes. I think this speaks of the WEstern leg of Rome, and then the Eastern leg of Rome, but those same nations TODAY.

Therefore both chapter 2 and chapter 7 are giving us hints of LAND AREAS and the people living there. Muslims have invaded much of the land areas of both legs of ancient Rome. They have no intention of the idea of the "melting pot." They don't want to "mix" and won't mix, just as clay will not mix with iron.

Marylin, I just don't see England and the US as fitting either leg or Rome. It is a theory that just don't fit. Prophecy is mostly concerned with ISRAEL and the nations that surround Israel. I am convinced that the kingdom of the Beast will be made up of Middle East nations.

Hi iamlamad,

You have only written conjecture and not proven your historical point by scripture. That is your opinion and not backed by scripture that Dan. 2 image & Dan. 7 beasts are similar.

Clearly God tells us that the 4 beastly powers are at the time on His returning to set up His kingdom rule through Israel.

` I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.`  (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

You agree that they are contemporary to the time of God`s rule through Israel, however you seem stuck in the past with who these beastly powers are. God is not judging `land areas,` as you seem to think He is. God is judging rulerships.

Looking at the phenomenon of the Super Powers of today - UK, USA, EU & Russia. It seems that it is not a coincidence that God knew of them and would tell us concerning their part in the Final Global Government. Let`s just look at the emblems we all recognise across the world of these great powers.

UK (Lion) USA (Eagle)

Russia (Bear)

EU (Leopard).

Marilyn.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

You have only written conjecture and not proven your historical point by scripture. That is your opinion and not backed by scripture that Dan. 2 image & Dan. 7 beasts are similar.

Clearly God tells us that the 4 beastly powers are at the time on His returning to set up His kingdom rule through Israel.

` I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.`  (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

You agree that they are contemporary to the time of God`s rule through Israel, however you seem stuck in the past with who these beastly powers are. God is not judging `land areas,` as you seem to think He is. God is judging rulerships.

Looking at the phenomenon of the Super Powers of today - UK, USA, EU & Russia. It seems that it is not a coincidence that God knew of them and would tell us concerning their part in the Final Global Government. Let`s just look at the emblems we all recognise across the world of these great powers.

UK (Lion) USA (Eagle)

Russia (Bear)

EU (Leopard).

Marilyn.

Marilyn, You have only written conjecture that the UK is the Lion of Daniel 7, that Russia is the bear, and that the Leopard is the EU. You have not proven these points by scripture - for the simple reason, there IS NO SCRIPTURE making this absolute.

` I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.`

This verse tells me that chapter 7 is an end time scenario.  In this I think we agree.

contemporary to the time of God`s rule through Israel  I don't know why you are saying this. Christ's rule will be IN Israel, and OVER Israel, but is "through Israel" truth? Does God USE Israel to assist Him? If so I cannot find that anywhere. Show us.

you seem stuck in the past with who these beastly powers are   I don't think you understand my thinking here. Almost all commentators see a connection between the Lion Beast and Babylon, between the Bear Beast and Medo-Persia, etc, so this is not something I alone see.  However, my thinking, just like yours, is that these Beast are alive RIGHT NOW and will soon be a part of God's prophecies.  So WHY did God show John a beast like a lion? You imagine England. I think that is far fetched: The land area of ancient Babylon is FAR CLOSER to Israel than England! It is Iraq today, one of the nations that surround Israel. AT this moment there is NO "islamic brotherhood" "king" for Iraq, but I am convinced THERE SOON WILL BE! It is the head of God of Nebuchadnezzar with Babylon's lion insignia that points to modern day Iraq. There is not a doubt in my mind that Iraq will be one of the Beast's 7 heads.

There is no doubt in my mind that Iran will be one of the 7 heads. By the way, Iran certainly has a "king." Therefore I am NOT stuck in the past, nor do I believe God will judge "land areas." It will be PEOPLE that get judged. I see you just did not understand me. But then, since you are stuck on the UK and the US, it is no wonder.

We still disagree. In the end, yourtheory is probably more of a conjecture than my theory.

Edited October 19, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

The data in Daniel 11 and 12, which includes Daniel 11:30-35 in which the faithful are killed in numerous ways under the reign of the abomination of desolation; when Daniel asks the Lord as to the meaning of those visions (Dan 12:8), he is told to go his way as the data was sealed till the time of the end (Dan 12:9), at which time many would then be running to and fro with knowledge and understanding of these events increasing (Dan 12:4), thereby indicating the words being unsealed. These events and the words relating to them were not unsealed in the second century BC under the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes. By the way this is the third area in the bible with the description of the times described in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:14, indicating them all as the same series of events during the time of the end.

Daniel 12:8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Immediately I disagree with you: I and many many others see 11:35 as still talking about Antiochus Epiphanes. It is not until verse 36 that I think is taking about our future. Just because things were "sealed" in his time did not prevent him from doing what he did, and did not prevent Daniel writing about him.

Did Daniel seal his entire book? I don't know.

MANY people today recognize 11:21 through 35 as speaking of Antiochus. I agree with them. I think we are close enough to the end that people SHOULD understand Daniel. 

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, You have only written conjecture that the UK is the Lion of Daniel 7, that Russia is the bear, and that the Leopard is the EU. You have not proven these points by scripture - for the simple reason, there IS NO SCRIPTURE making this absolute.

` I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.`

This verse tells me that chapter 7 is an end time scenario.  In this I think we agree.

contemporary to the time of God`s rule through Israel  I don't know why you are saying this. Christ's rule will be IN Israel, and OVER Israel, but is "through Israel" truth? Does God USE Israel to assist Him? If so I cannot find that anywhere. Show us.

you seem stuck in the past with who these beastly powers are   I don't think you understand my thinking here. Almost all commentators see a connection between the Lion Beast and Babylon, between the Bear Beast and Medo-Persia, etc, so this is not something I alone see.  However, my thinking, just like yours, is that these Beast are alive RIGHT NOW and will soon be a part of God's prophecies.  So WHY did God show John a beast like a lion? You imagine England. I think that is far fetched: The land area of ancient Babylon is FAR CLOSER to Israel than England! It is Iraq today, one of the nations that surround Israel. AT this moment there is NO "islamic brotherhood" "king" for Iraq, but I am convinced THERE SOON WILL BE! It is the head of God of Nebuchadnezzar with Babylon's lion insignia that points to modern day Iraq. There is not a doubt in my mind that Iraq will be one of the Beast's 7 heads.

There is no doubt in my mind that Iran will be one of the 7 heads. By the way, Iran certainly has a "king." Therefore I am NOT stuck in the past, nor do I believe God will judge "land areas." It will be PEOPLE that get judged. I see you just did not understand me. But then, since you are stuck on the UK and the US, it is no wonder.

We still disagree. In the end, yourtheory is probably more of a conjecture than my theory.

Hi iamlamd,

OK, I think there are too many balls in the air. Let`s build on what we agree and go from there.

1. We agree that these beastly powers are contemporary as God`s word says they continue after the Global beast is destroyed and God`s kingdom rule comes on earth.

(note: `and my servant David shall be their prince..` (Ez. 37: 25) (also Jer. 30:9) The Lord rules through Israel. )

2. We agree that the Middle East nations play a big part in what is to come.

So can you please tell me which nations have ruled the world for the past decades and continue to do so?

Marilyn.

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, luigi said:

What part of my constant acknowledging that what John is shown in chapters 4 through 22 concerns the hereafter, as the Lord testifies to in Revelation 4:1? You are the one who has been claiming that it is not all prophesy from 95 AD and forward, but that it includes historical events prior to 95 AD. Your perspective, as I said before denies the Word. I have shown with scriptures who the woman in Revelation 12 represents, their being the saints in Daniel 7:25. I have shown with Daniel 11:30-35 where the remnant in Revelation 12, represent the saints who are not slain during the tribulation period during the abomination of desolation. And how do you respond? You respond by asking me to answer honestly if God did show John things that were in the hereafter. 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 

I wonder how long you are going to be stuck on this.

DID God show John "things which must be hereafter" from Daniel's perspective? The answer is a RESOUNDING YES!  Therefore I don't know why you are struggling so much because God chose to put SOME verses (in comparison a very small about) that was about events in John's past. Let it go! It is truth and you are trying to disprove truth. It cannot be done.

Case in point: there was a time when even Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, WAS NOT QUALIFIED or WORTHY to take the book and open the seals. That is why John wrote NO MAN was found.  When you finally figure out WHY Jesus was not qualified or found worthy to take the book, then perhaps you will understand the TIME when He was not found worthy.

[Marilyn C]

Heresy iamlamad

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamd,

OK, I think there are too many balls in the air. Let`s build on what we agree and go from there.

1. We agree that these beastly powers are contemporary as God`s word says they continue after the Global beast is destroyed and God`s kingdom rule comes on earth.

(note: `and my servant David shall be their prince..` (Ez. 37: 25) (also Jer. 30:9) The Lord rules through Israel. )

2. We agree that the Middle East nations play a big part in what is to come.

So can you please tell me which nations have ruled the world for the past decades and continue to do so?

Marilyn.

1. ...and God`s kingdom rule comes on earth.  I don't think at this time that Jesus has officially started His millennial kingdom.  He has just returned to earth and to the Battle of Armageddon. He is "IN CHARGE," I am sure of that!

Would't "OVER" be a better word than "through?" "Through" has the connotation that Israel is HELPING Him rule.

can you please tell me which nations have ruled the world for the past decades and continue to do so?  Sorry, but who has "ruled the world" over the past years has very little to do with bible prophecy which is centered on Jerusalem and Israel. It does not matter who.