What to make of "the rest of the Beasts" and "a season and a time."

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Thank you for specifically commenting on what I wrote. That makes for good discussion.

Now I also see the `little horn` and the leader of the Global Government, (Rev. 13: 3) as the same person. So we agree there, bro.

Now you have not proven that those contemporary beastly powers of Dan. 7 point back to history. 

As I said God is very up to date and has revealed to us specifically the line up of the super powers of our day that go to make the Global Government. They are a phenomenon of our times. I am in the process of putting together a blog on this very subject.

Marilyn.

Daniel wrote perhaps 600 BC, so some of what he wrote was about his days. As for prophecy, some of what he wrote was certainly future to him then, but is history to us now, such as Daniel chapter 8 about Greece versus Persia, then the 4 divisions after Alexander died, then on to Antiochus Epiphanes. Dan. chapter 11 has some that is history to us today, and then perhaps from verse 36 onward, things future to us.

Then there is some prophecy written so as to fit something back then when it was written, and has a secondary meaning that is future prophecy. Much of the prophecy written in the Old Testament fits this category: The prophet may be prophesying of Assyria coming down to Israel to carry people away as captives, but God slips in some prophecy still future to us today.

I suspect Daniel 7 is this type of prophecy: about the ancient empires, but yet also about our future. The commentators all seem to see the ancient part of it, and ignore the future. When I read a verse like this one:

...I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. ¹² As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time...

It hints strongly to me that this is future: that not only is the Little horn (the Beast) slain, but the other beasts are concurrent with the beast: all 4 "kings" alive at the same time.

At the same time, The descriptions of these beasts certainly point back to the image of Daniel 2. And even in chapter 2, there is future: most readers believe that we are living in the time of the toes right now. And in the future THE ROCK will strike those toes and bring in the millennial kingdom. But just WHO are those "toes?" There are two legs with two feet and two sets of toes. I think this speaks of the WEstern leg of Rome, and then the Eastern leg of Rome, but those same nations TODAY.

Therefore both chapter 2 and chapter 7 are giving us hints of LAND AREAS and the people living there. Muslims have invaded much of the land areas of both legs of ancient Rome. They have no intention of the idea of the "melting pot." They don't want to "mix" and won't mix, just as clay will not mix with iron.

Marylin, I just don't see England and the US as fitting either leg or Rome. It is a theory that just don't fit. Prophecy is mostly concerned with ISRAEL and the nations that surround Israel. I am convinced that the kingdom of the Beast will be made up of Middle East nations.

[luigi]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why do you say such a thing: does YOUR bible include the word "only" in that verse?

If you insist I "twist" then SHOW the scripture and show how I twisted it.

How would you have answered if Jesus Christ, the head of the church, had asked YOU those three questions? I really would like to hear your answer.

John is called to heaven where he is to be shown forthcoming events (Revelation 4:1). The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD. So unless you have scriptural support that some events in these chapters transition from future prohesy and turn into a historical account of prior events; all the events in chapters 4 through 22 are then future events after 95 AD. 

iamlamad, Satan is currently deceiving the whole world (myself included), to varying degrees (Revelation 12:9). One way to circumvent Satan's false illumination (2 Corinthians 11:14), is to study and acknowledge the Word. If your perspective of scriptures denies one or more scriptures along with various facts, then realize that the illumination you have in your head, may very well be Satan's deception.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Edited October 17, 2019 by luigi

[luigi]

Just now, luigi said:

John is called to heaven where he is to be shown forthcoming events (Revelation 4:1). The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD. So unless you have scriptural support that some events in these chapters transition from future prohesy and turn into a historical account of prior events; all the events in chapters 4 through 22 are then future events after 95 AD. 

Satan is currently deceiving the whole world (myself included), to varying degrees (Revelation 12:9). One way to circumvent Satan's false illumination (2 Corinthians 11:14), is to study and acknowledge the Word. If your perspective of scriptures denies one or more scriptures along with various facts, then realize that the pretty picture you have in your head, may very well be Satan's deception.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, luigi said:

John is called to heaven where he is to be shown forthcoming events (Revelation 4:1). The book of Revelation was written circa 95 AD. So unless you have scriptural support that some events in these chapters transition from future prohesy and turn into a historical account of prior events; all the events in chapters 4 through 22 are then future events after 95 AD. 

iamlamad, Satan is currently deceiving the whole world (myself included), to varying degrees (Revelation 12:9). One way to circumvent Satan's false illumination (2 Corinthians 11:14), is to study and acknowledge the Word. If your perspective of scriptures denies one or more scriptures along with various facts, then realize that the illumination you have in your head, may very well be Satan's deception.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

I agree, John wrote around 95 AD. OF COURSE I have scriptural support!

Did you look at the questions Jesus asked me, and try to answer them?

Why did God show John in the vision a throne room with the Father on the throne, but JESUS NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father? This is the first question Jesus asked me. However, He preceded that question with this:

"I ascended back into heaven long before John received this vision. There are over a dozen verses saying that I ascended back into heaven to sit at the Father's right hand. In fact, Stephen saw me there."

In other words, Jesus was verifying that John saw this vision long after Jesus ascended. So the question is a very good question.  WHY would God show John a throne room with the principle character of the bible MISSING?

His next question was just as difficult to answer: WHY was Jesus not found worthy to take the book in that first search John watched. Jesus said that that search "ended in failure." In fact, that is WHY John wept much. Jesus said that if I read ahead, HE was found worthy" The way John wrote, He was found LATER - after time had passed.  Therefore, WHY did God show John a search for one worthy that ended in failure? I could not answer that question at that time. Truthfully, I had no idea.

Then His third question was this: John saw the Holy Spirit there in the throne room (as the 7 spirits of God) in chapter 4.  WHY was the holy Spirit there? Jesus reminded me of the scripture - that as soon as He ascended, He would send Him down. So this also is a very legitimate question: It is 95 AD and Jesus had ascended some 60 years previously: WHY then did God show John in the vision a throne room with the Holy Spirit still there?

We find the answer in chapter 5. Shortly after Jesus was found worthy (to take the book) John suddenly saw Jesus appear in the throne room where He was NOT SEEN previously; John saw Him as a lamb "having been slain." We know that as soon as Jesus sent Mary away, after telling her not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended, He then ascended with His blood (Hebrews) to the altar in heaven. But John tells us He also ascended to get that book into HIS hands and begin to open the seals.

So what is the answer? WHY did God show John a vision of the throne room with Jesus ABSENT?

Why did God show John a vision of a search for one worthy to take the book that ended in failure?

Why did God show John that the Holy Spirit was still there?

As I said before, God had to include in this vision SOME WAY of showing us, the readers, that He was showing John a vision of the past.  He wanted to show John the book, but wanted to start it while the book was still in the hand of the Father.  Since that was 60 some years into the past, God had to show in the vision that it was past, not future.

Stop and think: in all of time, past, present, future, WHEN was there a time when the second person of the triune Godhead was NOT in the throne room? That would be during the 32 years He was on the earth.

In all of time, WHEN was there a time Jesus was NOT WORTHY to take the book and open the seals? That would be ANY time before He prevailed over death and rose from the dead.

In all of time, WHEN was the Holy Spirit in the throne room? MY guess is, any time BEFORE Jesus ascended to send Him down.  It is somewhat of a trick question, because the Holy Spirit is omnipresent. God, however had to show TIMING in this vision, and this is how HE chose to do it.

I know, most people read over chapter 4 and 5 and get NONE OF THIS. Yet, NOW it is plain as day that God chose this method to show us WHEN Jesus got the book and began opening the seals.

Did you ever wonder if the 5th vial is past or future? We don't need to wonder: there has never been an extended period of darkness over the world or over the Middle East. We can tell that is FUTURE.

How about the 6th trumpet judgment? Again, we KNOW (absolutely no doubt) that there has never been one single event that killed 1/3 of earth's population. Clearly this is still FUTURE.

How about the 6th seal? It is the same: there has never been a worldwide earthquake. WE know we are still in the age of Grace: it is NOT the time for God's wrath to be poured out. Clearly this is still FUTURE.

How about the 5th seal? Some think it is the martyrs of the 70th week. Yet I know John has not yet started the week in Rev. 6.  This seal may be a question to some: COULD it be church age martyrs? Certainly it could! Are people still be added to the church age martyrs? Yes, and there will continue to be martyrs until the church age ENDS.

If we back up to the 4th seal: a pale rider titled DEATH. Could we tell if this is past or future? These riders were limited by God in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. If it centers on Israel,, that would take in Europe, the Middle EAst, and Africa. Have we seen famines in Africa? Yes, one after another after another. Have we seen wars in Europe and Africa? Yes, two world wars!  Have we seen "DEATH" from plagues in Europe and Africa? Yes, certainly we have! The black plague hit Europe TWICE, both times killing almost 1/3 of the people. "Ring around the rosey, pocket full of posies, ashes ashes, we all fall down." In reality, only about 1/3 fell down.

If the first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the Gospel, and I know it is, that started as soon as Jesus ascended.  Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the church. God allowed him to use wars, famines, pestilences, etc to stop the gospel. Where do missionaries go when a war breaks out? They go HOME. Same if something like the Yellow Fever breaks out. Has the devil been successful? No, for now the gospel is almost everywhere on the planet.

In other word, using just a little common sense and some knowledge of history, we can pretty much pinpoint where we are NOW in Revelation. There are still martyrs being added, so we are at the 5th seal. The day of His wrath has not come, so we cannot be past the 6th seal.

By the way, Satan is NOT YET cast down. He still has his wings. That event - war in heaven - will take place at the midpoint of the week, at the 7th trumpet.  But yet, he still can appear as an angel of light. But His character will always come out - he cannot hide what he is for long.

If you cannot believe these events were past, you are then forced to explain some other reason why Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, and why "no man was found" in that first search, and why the Holy Spirit was still there in the throne room.

Edited October 17, 2019 by iamlamad

[luigi]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

 

So what is the answer? WHY did God show John a vision of the throne room with Jesus ABSENT?

Why did God show John a vision of a search for one worthy to take the book that ended in failure?

Why did God show John that the Holy Spirit was still there?

As I said before, God had to include in this vision SOME WAY of showing us, the readers, that He was showing John a vision of the past.  He wanted to show John the book, but wanted to start it while the book was still in the hand of the Father.  Since that was 60 some years into the past, God had to show in the vision that it was past, not future.

 

 

iamlamad, You asked many questions, and to respond simply, I repeat that whatever perspective of scriptures you may have, it must corroborate the Word to be valid.

Your claim above that the Lords first attempt to open the seals ended in failure, thereby suggesting that what is being expounded upon in Revelation 5 precedes a forthcoming event, subtly denies the Word where the things shown John in chapters 4 through 22 constitute forthcoming events.

Another way to look at the statements where no one was able to open the seals is that it is merely relating that until Jesus came along and opened them then and there in front of John, that Jesus could have opened them previously but did not do so until the time the Lord felt it necessary to do so in 95 AD.

Do you know how many people on this and other Christian forums claim many of the events in Revelation having occurred in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed? Had the Lord provided this information prior to 70 AD, Satan's deception of even more individuals with his false illumination would include a whole lot more people than it includes now.

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

His next question was just as difficult to answer: WHY was Jesus not found worthy to take the book in that first search John watched. Jesus said that that search "ended in failure." In fact, that is WHY John wept much. Jesus said that if I read ahead, HE was found worthy" The way John wrote, He was found LATER - after time had passed.  Therefore, WHY did God show John a search for one worthy that ended in failure? I could not answer that question at that time. Truthfully, I had no idea.

Iamlamad,

This is a great explanation of the seals, and revelation 4 and 5 and how this was a "Jump back" in time. I Hope and pray you are now starting to see the structure of Revelation, Because what you are seeing is the Jump back in the first vision, the churches, which leads into the second vision, the seals.

BTW, I disagree with you on the White Horse being the church sent out with the Gospel. As I have said before to you, the seals represent a Hedge of protection being removed, Just like Job, around the Body of Christ, though you are right to place it in the early church age. I See them as the false apostles/Nicolaitans which the early church had to deal with if you understand what the church of Ephesus being the apostolic church age. 

A Little something about the Nicolaitans. The root word Nikos Means νῖκος nîkos, nee'-kos; from G3529; a conquest (concretely), i.e. (by implication) triumph:—victory. Laitans is a word for the People from which the English language gets the word Laity as in a church laity. Thus the Nicolaitans are those who would conquer and rule over the Laity. Tradition tells us that these people committed Balaam's error seeking gain from their position, thus this was the temptation that was unsealed with the rider on the White Horse, which goes right back to the early church. Of course that is my view... There are of course other views out there that place the seals before the final week as well, some say the U.N. is the rider on the White horse. I Personally think all the seals were unsealed back then, but they culminate in the end times in the order mentioned in revelation, so for example, the church has been persecuted throughout the centuries, but there is a final persecution coming at the hands of the beast of Rev. 13. where he makes war with the saints and overcomes them. The church has also had to deal with wars and famines and pestilences throughout the centuries, but each of these has a culmination in end times. So also the rule over the Laity has been an ongoing battle in the church ages from false apostles, and Nicolaitans to Jezebel, and the synagogue of Satan at work in the church ages, but this rider on the White horse will ride a final time, as the False Prophet.

My Point being the seals are a temptation all believers must face from the early church to the end times church of Laodicea. Like Job had to endure, so must the saints of the churches endure these trials as well, and they will be accelerated and worldwide in the "great tribulation".  

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Iamlamad,

This is a great explanation of the seals, and revelation 4 and 5 and how this was a "Jump back" in time. I Hope and pray you are now starting to see the structure of Revelation, Because what you are seeing is the Jump back in the first vision, the churches, which leads into the second vision, the seals.

BTW, I disagree with you on the White Horse being the church sent out with the Gospel. As I have said before to you, the seals represent a Hedge of protection being removed, Just like Job, around the Body of Christ, though you are right to place it in the early church age. I See them as the false apostles/Nicolaitans which the early church had to deal with if you understand what the church of Ephesus being the apostolic church age. 

A Little something about the Nicolaitans. The root word Nikos Means νῖκος nîkos, nee'-kos; from G3529; a conquest (concretely), i.e. (by implication) triumph:—victory. Laitans is a word for the People from which the English language gets the word Laity as in a church laity. Thus the Nicolaitans are those who would conquer and rule over the Laity. Tradition tells us that these people committed Balaam's error seeking gain from their position, thus this was the temptation that was unsealed with the rider on the White Horse, which goes right back to the early church. Of course that is my view... There are of course other views out there that place the seals before the final week as well, some say the U.N. is the rider on the White horse. I Personally think all the seals were unsealed back then, but they culminate in the end times in the order mentioned in revelation, so for example, the church has been persecuted throughout the centuries, but there is a final persecution coming at the hands of the beast of Rev. 13. where he makes war with the saints and overcomes them. The church has also had to deal with wars and famines and pestilences throughout the centuries, but each of these has a culmination in end times. So also the rule over the Laity has been an ongoing battle in the church ages from false apostles, and Nicolaitans to Jezebel, and the synagogue of Satan at work in the church ages, but this rider on the White horse will ride a final time, as the False Prophet.

My Point being the seals are a temptation all believers must face from the early church to the end times church of Laodicea. Like Job had to endure, so must the saints of the churches endure these trials as well, and they will be accelerated and worldwide in the "great tribulation".  

It is ok that you don't believe the first seal is the church: I have much confidence that one day  you will believe it - for it is truth.  What or who else could be represented by the color white around 32 AD when Jesus sent out the church? John used white 17 times, and the other 16 to represent righteousness.

Edited October 18, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, luigi said:

iamlamad, You asked many questions, and to respond simply, I repeat that whatever perspective of scriptures you may have, it must corroborate the Word to be valid.

Your claim above that the Lords first attempt to open the seals ended in failure, thereby suggesting that what is being expounded upon in Revelation 5 precedes a forthcoming event, subtly denies the Word where the things shown John in chapters 4 through 22 constitute forthcoming events.

Another way to look at the statements where no one was able to open the seals is that it is merely relating that until Jesus came along and opened them then and there in front of John, that Jesus could have opened them previously but did not do so until the time the Lord felt it necessary to do so in 95 AD.

Do you know how many people on this and other Christian forums claim many of the events in Revelation having occurred in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed? Had the Lord provided this information prior to 70 AD, Satan's deception of even more individuals with his false illumination would include a whole lot more people than it includes now.

Let's start over with "good morning" and try this again.  Don't take my word for it, go back and read it over and over and over, and search diligently for the world "ONLY." My friend, it is simply NOT THERE. God did not say He would show John ONLY things in the future. He said He would show John things in the future. Period and end of this story. You seem to imagine He included an "only." Question: DID God show John things (events) that were in John's future? You KNOW He did. So God did exactly what He said He would do. But God left out that "only" to leave himself open to include some events that were past.

Have you studied this passage?

12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: [This is an exact picture of how Virgo looked on Sept. 1 or 2 in 2 BC when Christ was born according to my space software.]

² And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [She being Mary of Israel]

³ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [The dragon is Satan.]

⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [Satan used King Herod to try and murder the Christ child as soon as he was born - or shortly thereafter]

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. [This is the life of Christ in one verse]

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. [This verse switches from the past to the future - OUR future.]

 

Where is John in his narrative here as he begins chapter 12? It is easy to tell: Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination - the very abomination that will divide the week. Verse 6 here shows them beginning to flee. So chapter 12 is only seconds after the midpoint of the week. But verses 1-5 were a HISTORY LESSON (Jesus words to me, I did not come up with them) for John, looking back to Christ's birth. Jesus was older that John, so John was not alive with Christ was born.

You might wonder, why would God include verses about His birth here in a midpoint chapter?

This chapter was God introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. So the chapter is about Satan. However, Jesus CHOSE (His word not mine) to show John how the dragon tried to murder him as a young child.

Here then is the beast example of a parenthesis and a look back in time to WAY before 95 AD. When I could not answer His three questions - He sent me here to learn of this "history lesson."

In other words, God most certainly included some History with His events of the future.

Your claim above that the Lords first attempt to open the seals ended in failure  I did not claim this: JOHN DID! That was the very reason why john "wept much." Can you come up with a reasonable argument as to why a thorough search by angels for one worthy to take the book would end in failure? If you don't believe my answer, give us all a more plausible answer.

Another way to look at the statements where no one was able to open the seals is that it is merely relating that until Jesus came along and opened them then and there in front of John  Sorry, but this answer does not fit! Angels were given a task: FIND SOMEONE worthy! They searched in heaven, then they searched on earth, and then they searched under the earth (Hades) and yet "NO MAN WAS FOUND." Did the angels do a poor job? No. Angels always do God's work perfectly. The truth here is these: at that point in time, "NO MAN" anywhere was worthy. NOWHERE! Not in heaven, not on earth, and not in hell.

Now, tells us: WHERE WAS JESUS during the search? He would have had to be on one of those three places - and indeed He was. But God's point is this: AT THAT TIME JESUS was not worthy. Why? It is very simple: He had not yet risen from the dead. But soon after John wrote that Jesus had "prevailed" to become worthy. So you tell us: what did Jesus "prevail over" to become worthy? I say He prevailed over death.

I think God did a perfect job of showing us in these two chapters that it was history, before Christ ascended. Then, as the clinched nail in doubter's coffin, John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down! This ties the time to around 32 AD when Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals.

Do you know how many people on this and other Christian forums claim many of the events in Revelation having occurred in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed?  My opinion is, NO real student of the bible would believe Revelation occurred in 70 AD.  Yes, I am well aware of the preterist view. My view is NOT preterist. There are only two passages in Revelation that were history to John that I know about: chapters 4 & 5, and the parenthesis in Rev. 12.

Note, our doctrine MUST come from what is written, correctly understood. It cannot come from homan reasoning.

Edited October 18, 2019 by iamlamad

[luigi]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's start over with "good morning" and try this again.  Don't take my word for it, go back and read it over and over and over, and search diligently for the world "ONLY." My friend, it is simply NOT THERE. God did not say He would show John ONLY things in the future. He said He would show John things in the future. Period and end of this story. You seem to imagine He included an "only." Question: DID God show John things (events) that were in John's future? You KNOW He did. So God did exactly what He said He would do. But God left out that "only" to leave himself open to include some events that were past.

Have you studied this passage?

12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: [This is an exact picture of how Virgo looked on Sept. 1 or 2 in 2 BC when Christ was born according to my space software.]

² And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [She being Mary of Israel]

³ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [The dragon is Satan.]

⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [Satan used King Herod to try and murder the Christ child as soon as he was born - or shortly thereafter]

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. [This is the life of Christ in one verse]

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. [This verse switches from the past to the future - OUR future.]

 

Where is John in his narrative here as he begins chapter 12? It is easy to tell: Jesus told those in Judea to flee the moment they see the abomination - the very abomination that will divide the week. Verse 6 here shows them beginning to flee. So chapter 12 is only seconds after the midpoint of the week. But verses 1-5 were a HISTORY LESSON (Jesus words to me, I did not come up with them) for John, looking back to Christ's birth. Jesus was older that John, so John was not alive with Christ was born.

You might wonder, why would God include verses about His birth here in a midpoint chapter?

This chapter was God introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. So the chapter is about Satan. However, Jesus CHOSE (His word not mine) to show John how the dragon tried to murder him as a young child.

Here then is the beast example of a parenthesis and a look back in time to WAY before 95 AD. When I could not answer His three questions - He sent me here to learn of this "history lesson."

In other words, God most certainly included some History with His events of the future.

Your claim above that the Lords first attempt to open the seals ended in failure  I did not claim this: JOHN DID! That was the very reason why john "wept much." Can you come up with a reasonable argument as to why a thorough search by angels for one worthy to take the book would end in failure? If you don't believe my answer, give us all a more plausible answer.

Another way to look at the statements where no one was able to open the seals is that it is merely relating that until Jesus came along and opened them then and there in front of John  Sorry, but this answer does not fit! Angels were given a task: FIND SOMEONE worthy! They searched in heaven, then they searched on earth, and then they searched under the earth (Hades) and yet "NO MAN WAS FOUND." Did the angels do a poor job? No. Angels always do God's work perfectly. The truth here is these: at that point in time, "NO MAN" anywhere was worthy. NOWHERE! Not in heaven, not on earth, and not in hell.

Now, tells us: WHERE WAS JESUS during the search? He would have had to be on one of those three places - and indeed He was. But God's point is this: AT THAT TIME JESUS was not worthy. Why? It is very simple: He had not yet risen from the dead. But soon after John wrote that Jesus had "prevailed" to become worthy. So you tell us: what did Jesus "prevail over" to become worthy? I say He prevailed over death.

I think God did a perfect job of showing us in these two chapters that it was history, before Christ ascended. Then, as the clinched nail in doubter's coffin, John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down! This ties the time to around 32 AD when Jesus got the book into His hands and began opening the seals.

Do you know how many people on this and other Christian forums claim many of the events in Revelation having occurred in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed?  My opinion is, NO real student of the bible would believe Revelation occurred in 70 AD.  Yes, I am well aware of the preterist view. My view is NOT preterist. There are only two passages in Revelation that were history to John that I know about: chapters 4 & 5, and the parenthesis in Rev. 12.

Note, our doctrine MUST come from what is written, correctly understood. It cannot come from homan reasoning.

Your claim that John claimed a first attempt at opening the seals (which does not exist) a failure; means that that part you read into Revelation which does not exist, you see as Johns words and not the Lords Word to John.

And yes, I do see the woman in Revelation 12 who travails for a time, times, and half a time in Revelation 12:14, which is explained as 1,260 days in Revelation 12:6, thereby denoting each of the 3.5 times as 360 days. This data on this event and times appears again in Daniel 7:25 in which the 10 horned beast's mouth, who is also referred to as the little horn wears out the saints for a time (1), times (2), and dividing of time (1/2). The travailing woman in Revelation 12 are the saints prior to their redemption and birth during the time of great tribulation.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, luigi said:

Your claim that John claimed a first attempt at opening the seals (which does not exist) a failure; means that that part you read into Revelation which does not exist, you see as Johns words and not the Lords Word to John.

And yes, I do see the woman in Revelation 12 who travails for a time, times, and half a time in Revelation 12:14, which is explained as 1,260 days in Revelation 12:6, thereby denoting each of the 3.5 times as 360 days. This data on this event and times appears again in Daniel 7:25 in which the 10 horned beast's mouth, who is also referred to as the little horn wears out the saints for a time (1), times (2), and dividing of time (1/2). The travailing woman in Revelation 12 are the saints prior to their redemption and birth during the time of great tribulation.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I don't know how anyone could read this any differently!

² And I saw a strong angel announcing in a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the scroll? And [who is entitled and deserves and is morally fit] to break its seals?

³ And no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth [in the realm of the dead, Hades] was able to open the scroll or to take a [single] look at its contents.

⁴ And I wept audibly and bitterly because no one was found fit to open the scroll or to inspect it.  (AMP)

What is this telling us? Exactly what it says: a search was made, for one worthy. This search took place in heaven, on earth and under the earth, and NO MAN WAS FOUND.  Is that difficult to understand? I don't think so: it means just what it says, at that point in time NO MAN ANYWHERE was worthy to take the book and open the seals.

I have heard the arguments: perhaps it wasn't a real search; perhaps the angel was looking for someone to volunteer. If that were true, still, NO ONE WAS QUALIFIED at that time to volunteer. I am not reading into this anything that is not in the meanings of the words themselves. When John wrote "no man" he meant no man.

The travailing woman in Revelation 12 are the saints prior to their redemption and birth during the time of great tribulation. 

Can we PLEASE just follow what is written instead of adding man's human reasoning? Go back and read it again! Jesus told those in Judea to RUN FOR THEIR LIVES when they see the abomination. We see this fleeing begin in verse 6. More information is added in the later verse: those that flee will be fed supernaturally and receive supernatural protection. These are JEWS and HEBREWS. They are the people living in Judea today.

Again, just read the text: don't add your theory:

² She was pregnant and she cried out in her birth pangs, in the anguish of her delivery.

The "travail" is because she is giving BIRTH. Yes, even Mary giving birth to the Messiah had birth pains. That is what this passage is about: the birth of Christ and then how Satan used King Herod to try and murder the child.