The parable of the Tares

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but that's what the Scriptures say:

Matthew 27:50-53 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Two stages, three days apart.

And What day was Christ resurrected on as well as these saints? Firstfruits. 

https://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/First_Fruits/first_fruits.html

Who are those others resurrected? They are those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ during his ministry and died before his death burial and resurrection, and before the new covenant was in effect, which required the death of the testator. And where are these resurrected saints right now? With Jesus in heaven.

Edited October 21, 2019 by dhchristian

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, but that's what the Scriptures say:

Matthew 27:50-53 (KJV)

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Two stages, three days apart.

You really have to watch the translator's use of punctuation:

"many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves after his resurrection "

The Bible was divided into chapters in the 13th century by Stephen Langton and it was divided into verses in the 16th century by French printer Robert Estienne. If we ignore the punctuation and verses, I think the above is the intended meaning.  I can't see people standing in their grave waiting for Jesus to raise. Anyway, I don't think anyone COULD rise until Jesus arose FIRST; else THEY would the "firstfruits."  I thing the graves were opened at the earthquake, and people rose when Jesus rose. It all depents on verse #'s and punctuation.

I am only using human reasoning here.

 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And What day was Christ resurrected on as well as these saints? Firstfruits. 

https://hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Spring_Holidays/First_Fruits/first_fruits.html

Who are those others resurrected? They are those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ during his ministry and died before his death burial and resurrection, and before the new covenant was in effect, which required the death of the testator. And where are these resurrected saints right now? With Jesus in heaven.

They are those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ during his ministry and died before his death   DH, did you get this as revelation knowledge, or is this human reasoning?

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

JESUS is the Way.... 

Jesus was the firstfruits, When is that? in the spring.... and then the ingathering, when is that? In the fall feasts. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.(Exodus 34:22)

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 cor. 15:20-23)

Do you see it now? 

What feast will all nations celebrate during the Millennial reign of Christ? The feast of Ingathering/ Tabernacles. (Zech. 14) Now you know why.

Went right over my head. All I know is, Jesus' resurrection HAD to be a part of the "first resurrection" for the simple fact there are only two and the next one is the "second death" resurrection. I also know His resurrection will end by being separated by around 2000 years of time from the resurrection of the Dead in Christ. I see Sherlock!

Jesus was called the firstfruits of them that died: for the simple reason that HE WAS FIRST.

Edited October 21, 2019 by iamlamad

[dhchristian]

43 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Went right over my head. All I know is, Jesus' resurrection HAD to be a part of the "first resurrection" for the simple fact there are only two and the next one is the "second death" resurrection. I also know His resurrection will end by being separated by around 2000 years of time from the resurrection of the Dead in Christ. I see Sherlock!

Jesus was called the firstfruits of them that died: for the simple reason that HE WAS FIRST.

No, He literally rose again on the feast day known as firstfruits, which is also tied to the ingathering(tabernacles). Paul  was expressing this point in the verses I quoted from 1 Cor. 15. It similar to how He called Christ our Passover...Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 cor 5:7-8)

By His death, he fulfilled the Passover, by his resurrection he fulfilled the feast of firstfruits. Notice that Ingathering is a seven day feast, just like the final week. 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

They are those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ during his ministry and died before his death   DH, did you get this as revelation knowledge, or is this human reasoning?

Both. This Question came up some time before on this site. Dispensationalism is the Only framework that explains this group, They are not the OT saints, who like Daniel will rise at the end of the age as per Daniel 12. They are not the Antideluvian righteous for they were seen and recognized by some in Jerusalem. Thus Logic would tell us they are those who believed on John the Baptist and Jesus who preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, yet died before Christ Did. How many were there? No idea.  

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

No, He literally rose again on the feast day known as firstfruits, which is also tied to the ingathering(tabernacles). Paul  was expressing this point in the verses I quoted from 1 Cor. 15. It similar to how He called Christ our Passover...Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. (1 cor 5:7-8)

By His death, he fulfilled the Passover, by his resurrection he fulfilled the feast of firstfruits. Notice that Ingathering is a seven day feast, just like the final week. 

Both. This Question came up some time before on this site. Dispensationalism is the Only framework that explains this group, They are not the OT saints, who like Daniel will rise at the end of the age as per Daniel 12. They are not the Antideluvian righteous for they were seen and recognized by some in Jerusalem. Thus Logic would tell us they are those who believed on John the Baptist and Jesus who preached the Gospel of the Kingdom, yet died before Christ Did. How many were there? No idea.  

Definition of firstfruits. 1 : the earliest gathered fruits offered to the Deity in acknowledgment of the gift of fruitfulness. 2 : the earliest products or results of an endeavor.

Without ANY doubt, Jesus was the very first human to receive a resurrection body. This is the main reason He is the firstfruits of those that slept. "Slept" here is referring to death; and the opposite of death is life as in resurrection: RISING from the dead. He was the first. "Firstfruits" also gives us the idea of secondfruits, thirdfruits etc which will be the rapture of the church.

The fact that He rose on a feast title's firstfruits is just an added bonus.

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You really have to watch the translator's use of punctuation:

"many bodies of the saints which slept arose and came out of the graves after his resurrection "

The Bible was divided into chapters in the 13th century by Stephen Langton and it was divided into verses in the 16th century by French printer Robert Estienne. If we ignore the punctuation and verses, I think the above is the intended meaning.  I can't see people standing in their grave waiting for Jesus to raise. Anyway, I don't think anyone COULD rise until Jesus arose FIRST; else THEY would the "firstfruits."  I thing the graves were opened at the earthquake, and people rose when Jesus rose. It all depents on verse #'s and punctuation.

I am only using human reasoning here.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Actually, you are right regarding the punctuation of the English version; however, one must really look at the cases and tenses of the grammar in the Greek to know for sure what is actually going on here.

Before I get into this technical stuff, WHY was it mentioned at all at His DEATH and not at His RESURRECTION? Think about it! Now, let's begin:

Kata Maththaion 27:50-53 (UBS Greek New Testament)

50 Ho de Ieesous palin kraxas foonee megalee afeeken to pneuma. 51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap’ anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan, 52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla someta toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegertheesan; 53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

50 Ho = 50 The (nominative masc. singular definite article)
de = but (conjunction)
Ieesous = Yeshua`; Jesus (personal nominative masc. singular noun)
palin =again (adverb)
kraxas = having cried (aorist participle active verb- nominative masc. singular)
foonee = in-a-voice (dative fem. singular noun)
megalee = loud (dative fem. singular adjective)
afeeken = he-sent-away (aorist indicative active verb - 3rd person singular)
to = the (accusative neuter singular definite article)
pneuma. = spirit; breath. (accusative neuter singular noun)
51 Kai = 51 And (conjunction)
idou = look! (aorist imperative active verb 2nd person singular)
to = the (nominative neuter singular definite article)
katapetasma = curtain; veil (nominative neuter singular noun)
tou = of-the (genitive masc. singular definite article)
naou = Temple (genitive masc. singular noun)
eschisthee = was-torn (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person singular)
ap’ = away-from (preposition)
anoothen = [the]-top (adverb)
heoos = as-far-as (preposition)
katoo = [the]-bottom (adverb)
eis = into (preposition)
duo, = two, (accusative neuter plural adjective)
kai = and (conjunction)
hee = the (nominative fem. singular definite article)
gee = earth (nominative fem. singular noun)
eseisthee, = was-shaken, (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person singular)
kai = and (conjunction)
hai = the (nominative fem. plural definite article)
petrai = rocks (nominative fem. plural noun)
eschistheesan, = were-split (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person plural)
52 kai = 52 and (conjunction)
ta = the (nominative neuter plural definite article)
mneemeia = tombs (nominative neuter plural noun)
aneoochtheesan = were-opened (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person plural)
kai = and (conjunction)
polla = many (nominative neuter plural adjective)
soomata = bodies (nominative neuter plural noun)
toon = of-the (genitive masc. plural definite article)
kekoimeemenoon = sleeping-ones (perfect participle middle/active verb - genitive masc. plural)
hagioon = holy (genitive masc. plural adjective)
eegertheesan; = were-awakened; (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person plural)
53 kai = 53 and (conjunction)
exelthontes = having-gone-forth (aorist participle active verb - nominative masc. plural)
ek = out (preposition)
toon = of-the (genitive neuter plural definite article)
mneemeioon = tombs (genitive neuter plural noun)
meta = after (preposition)
teen = the (accusative fem. sing. definite article)
egersin = resurrection; awakening (accusative fem. sing. noun)
autou = of-Him (genitive masc. 3rd person masc. sing. personal pronoun)
eiseelthon = they-entered (aorist indicative active verb - 3rd person plural)
eis = into (preposition)
teen = the (accusative fem. sing. definite article)
hagian = holy (accusative fem. sing. adjective)
polin = city (accusative fem. sing. noun)
kai = and (conjunction)
enefanistheesan = made-themselves-known (aorist indicative passive - 3rd person plural)
pollois. = to-many. (adjective-dative masc. plural)

(Grammatical parts of speech as given by BibleHub.)

Therefore, the verbs in verses 52 and 53 have a different case and weren't done at the same time. The "being awakened" was done PRIOR TO the "going forth out of the tombs."

[Retrobyter]

On 10/20/2019 at 11:23 PM, iamlamad said:

Ha! I would call that double talk! If they rose from the dead, they came out of their graves or tombs! It could not happen until JESUS rose first. The earthquake opened the graves (removed all the dirt) but they did not come out of their graves (resurrect) until Jesus did. My guess is, Jesus brought their spirits and souls with Him when He ascended out of Hades.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Then you would be wrong. See the Greek above. "Tombs" are typically CAVES that had doorways and usually large stones rolled in front of those doorways, much as the one in which our Lord was buried. Some caves were discovered and some were dug out of the stone.

You're thinking of a Western burial. However, this is a Middle Eastern burial. Remember how that Avraahaam, Saaraah, Yitschaaq, RiVqaah, Ya`aqoV, and Lee'aah (Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and Leah) were all buried in the cave of haMachpeelaah at HeVron (Hebron)? Many such caves were constructed around Jerusalem, usually as family burial plots.

They came to life when Yeshua` GAVE UP His breath and His powerful life radiated from His body to all those around Him. Then, three days (or what we would call 2-1/2 days) later, they came out of their open tombs, went into Yerushalayim, and showed themselves to the living. Later on, because they were resurrected the "old way," they had to die all over again.

Yeshua` ALONE was the "Firstfruits," bikkuwriym, of the New Resurrection, that is, the immortal resurrection, in which we now have a share at His Return.

And, once again, you're using the wrong definitions of "soul" and "spirit."

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Therefore, the verbs in verses 52 and 53 have a different case and weren't done at the same time. The "being awakened" was done PRIOR TO the "going forth out of the tombs."

 

Brother, I just want to illustrate how this entire segment takes place following the resurrection.

 

Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

55 There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

 

Compare it with what takes place at the tomb of Jesus.

 

Matthew 28  Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.

 

And what the guards did.

 

Matthew 28:11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers 13 and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

 

The veil was torn after, the earthquake came after, the tombs opened after, the saints rose after.  The guards realized He was God, they ran and told what they saw and the elders bought their silence and spread a lie.

 

God bless

[Retrobyter]

On 10/20/2019 at 11:29 PM, iamlamad said:

There must be something wrong with your eyesight! Jesus resurrection will end up around 2000 years before the dead in Christ are resurrected.

There is NO WAY the church is resurrected on the same day the Old Testament saints are resurrected.  Paul's writings would disprove that.  The great crowd too large to number would disprove that.

However, if you can show us why you believe it all happens at once, show us.

Shalom, again, iamlamad.

Actually, there is EVERY REASON to believe that the "church," who are typically Gentile believers in the Messiah, will be resurrected on the same day as the "Old Testament saints!"

They were "justified by God" ("saved") just the same as we are today!

In the Tanakh (the "O.T.," before the Messiah died), they were justified ...

1. by grace,
2. through faith,
3. by blood (of the sacrifices that REPRESENTED that of the Messiah)

And after the death of the Messiah, we are justified ...

1. by grace,
2. through faith,
3. by blood (that of the Messiah Himself which we COMMEMORATE in the Last Supper).

They looked forward to the Messiah's death; we look backward to the Messiah's death. But, ALL are justified by God the SAME WAY! We who live after the Messiah's First Advent - His First Coming - do NOT have some "better position" than they had! HOW ARROGANT!

That's why it's FOOLISH to think Gentile "Christians" will be in heaven while believing children of Israel will be on earth during the Millennium! The very thought that "Christians" are somehow better than the "children of Israel" is the EPITOME of racial prejudice and bigotry!

Do you think the author of Acts (Luke) made a mistake to call the children of Israel the "church in the wilderness?" (Acts 7:38.) No, they were the FIRST "ekkleesia!"