The parable of the Tares

[Retrobyter]

9 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Brother, I just want to illustrate how this entire segment takes place following the resurrection.

 

Matthew 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

55 There were also many women there, looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him, 56 among whom were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

 

Compare it with what takes place at the tomb of Jesus.

 

Matthew 28  Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.

 

And what the guards did.

 

Matthew 28:11 While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sufficient sum of money to the soldiers 13 and said, “Tell people, ‘His disciples came by night and stole him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor's ears, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were directed. And this story has been spread among the Jews to this day.

 

The veil was torn after, the earthquake came after, the tombs opened after, the saints rose after.  The guards realized He was God, they ran and told what they saw and the elders bought their silence and spread a lie.

 

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

Then, why mention it in chapter 27? Why mention it at the DEATH of the Messiah? Why connect verse 50 (which you conveniently skipped) with 51 through 53 with the conjunction "kai" in Greek (or the connective "v-" in Hebrew/Aramaic) at the beginning of verse 51?

All it takes is to recognize that there were TWO earthquakes, the first at His death on Thursday, and the second at His resurrection before the sun came up on Sunday ("three days and three nights," in that order, such that any portion of a day or a night constituted the whole day or night respectively).

Furthermore, the veil represented His flesh! The moment that the veil was torn in two was the EXACT moment that the Lord's Body was broken, just as represented in the Passover Seder they attended that many now call the "Lord's Supper," when our Lord broke the unleavened bread (matzah) and said, "Take, eat; this is my body that was broken for you."

Matthew 26:26-29 (KJV)

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said,

"Take, eat; this is my body."

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,

"Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Mark 14:22-25 (KJV)

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said,

"Take, eat: this is my body."

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. 24 And he said unto them,

"This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Luke 22:14-20 (KJV)

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them,

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said,

"Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come."

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying,

"This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying,

"This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (KJV)

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said,

"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,

"This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

Hebrews 10:11-22 (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

[wingnut-]

5 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Then, why mention it in chapter 27? Why mention it at the DEATH of the Messiah?

 

Because it is speaking to what is accomplished as a result, upon completion.  Why does it specify it comes AFTER?  Because it does maybe?  I mean, you would have to ask God why He arranges things the way He does.

[iamlamad]

On 10/22/2019 at 10:28 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, again, iamlamad.

Actually, there is EVERY REASON to believe that the "church," who are typically Gentile believers in the Messiah, will be resurrected on the same day as the "Old Testament saints!"

They were "justified by God" ("saved") just the same as we are today!

In the Tanakh (the "O.T.," before the Messiah died), they were justified ...

1. by grace,
2. through faith,
3. by blood (of the sacrifices that REPRESENTED that of the Messiah)

And after the death of the Messiah, we are justified ...

1. by grace,
2. through faith,
3. by blood (that of the Messiah Himself which we COMMEMORATE in the Last Supper).

They looked forward to the Messiah's death; we look backward to the Messiah's death. But, ALL are justified by God the SAME WAY! We who live after the Messiah's First Advent - His First Coming - do NOT have some "better position" than they had! HOW ARROGANT!

That's why it's FOOLISH to think Gentile "Christians" will be in heaven while believing children of Israel will be on earth during the Millennium! The very thought that "Christians" are somehow better than the "children of Israel" is the EPITOME of racial prejudice and bigotry!

Do you think the author of Acts (Luke) made a mistake to call the children of Israel the "church in the wilderness?" (Acts 7:38.) No, they were the FIRST "ekkleesia!"

Actually, there is EVERY REASON to believe    No, no reason at all. Not one (meaning ZERO) - NO - Old Testament saints were ever "born again." For the simple reason, Jesus had to die and raise from the dead before ANYONE could be born again. That makes the New Testament saints different.

That's why it's FOOLISH to think Gentile "Christians" will be in heaven while believing children of Israel will be on earth during the Millennium!  I agree: where did you get this silly idea?  The truth is, the Church will be in resurrected bodies and be judges during the millennium. Along with the church, some if not all of the Old Testament saints will be judges - but they too will all have resurrection bodies. Their rapture will be at the 7th vial on the last 24 hour period of the 70th week.

The very thought that "Christians" are somehow better than the "children of Israel" is the EPITOME of racial prejudice and bigotry!

Why don't we just see what God said about this? 

Hebrews 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Matthew 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Enough said? We get the awesome privilege of being born again - getting a new human spirit with GOD INSIDE. None of the Old Testament saints had that privilege. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, wingnut-.

Then, why mention it in chapter 27? Why mention it at the DEATH of the Messiah? Why connect verse 50 (which you conveniently skipped) with 51 through 53 with the conjunction "kai" in Greek (or the connective "v-" in Hebrew/Aramaic) at the beginning of verse 51?

All it takes is to recognize that there were TWO earthquakes, the first at His death on Thursday, and the second at His resurrection before the sun came up on Sunday ("three days and three nights," in that order, such that any portion of a day or a night constituted the whole day or night respectively).

Furthermore, the veil represented His flesh! The moment that the veil was torn in two was the EXACT moment that the Lord's Body was broken, just as represented in the Passover Seder they attended that many now call the "Lord's Supper," when our Lord broke the unleavened bread (matzah) and said, "Take, eat; this is my body that was broken for you."

Matthew 26:26-29 (KJV)

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said,

"Take, eat; this is my body."

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,

"Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Mark 14:22-25 (KJV)

22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said,

"Take, eat: this is my body."

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. 24 And he said unto them,

"This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Luke 22:14-20 (KJV)

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them,

"With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said,

"Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come."

19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying,

"This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying,

"This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (KJV)

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said,

"Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me."

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,

"This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

Hebrews 10:11-22 (KJV)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21And having an high priest over the house of God; 22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

All it takes is to recognize that there were TWO earthquakes,   Please, show us the scripture for TWO!

[iamlamad]

On 10/22/2019 at 10:12 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Then you would be wrong. See the Greek above. "Tombs" are typically CAVES that had doorways and usually large stones rolled in front of those doorways, much as the one in which our Lord was buried. Some caves were discovered and some were dug out of the stone.

You're thinking of a Western burial. However, this is a Middle Eastern burial. Remember how that Avraahaam, Saaraah, Yitschaaq, RiVqaah, Ya`aqoV, and Lee'aah (Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob, and Leah) were all buried in the cave of haMachpeelaah at HeVron (Hebron)? Many such caves were constructed around Jerusalem, usually as family burial plots.

They came to life when Yeshua` GAVE UP His breath and His powerful life radiated from His body to all those around Him. Then, three days (or what we would call 2-1/2 days) later, they came out of their open tombs, went into Yerushalayim, and showed themselves to the living. Later on, because they were resurrected the "old way," they had to die all over again.

Yeshua` ALONE was the "Firstfruits," bikkuwriym, of the New Resurrection, that is, the immortal resurrection, in which we now have a share at His Return.

And, once again, you're using the wrong definitions of "soul" and "spirit."

They came to life when Yeshua` GAVE UP His breath and His powerful life radiated from His body to all those around Him.   You would find it very difficult to prove this with scripture.

Later on, because they were resurrected the "old way," they had to die all over again.  You will have a hard time proving this too.

You can use an Old Testament definition of soul if you wish - I will use the New.  Paul made it clear that Spirit, soul, and spirit make up the human being.

[iamlamad]

On 10/22/2019 at 8:57 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Actually, you are right regarding the punctuation of the English version; however, one must really look at the cases and tenses of the grammar in the Greek to know for sure what is actually going on here.

Before I get into this technical stuff, WHY was it mentioned at all at His DEATH and not at His RESURRECTION? Think about it! Now, let's begin:

Kata Maththaion 27:50-53 (UBS Greek New Testament)

50 Ho de Ieesous palin kraxas foonee megalee afeeken to pneuma. 51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap’ anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan, 52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla someta toon kekoimeemenoon hagioon eegertheesan; 53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

50 Ho = 50 The (nominative masc. singular definite article)
de = but (conjunction)
Ieesous = Yeshua`; Jesus (personal nominative masc. singular noun)
palin =again (adverb)
kraxas = having cried (aorist participle active verb- nominative masc. singular)
foonee = in-a-voice (dative fem. singular noun)
megalee = loud (dative fem. singular adjective)
afeeken = he-sent-away (aorist indicative active verb - 3rd person singular)
to = the (accusative neuter singular definite article)
pneuma. = spirit; breath. (accusative neuter singular noun)
51 Kai = 51 And (conjunction)
idou = look! (aorist imperative active verb 2nd person singular)
to = the (nominative neuter singular definite article)
katapetasma = curtain; veil (nominative neuter singular noun)
tou = of-the (genitive masc. singular definite article)
naou = Temple (genitive masc. singular noun)
eschisthee = was-torn (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person singular)
ap’ = away-from (preposition)
anoothen = [the]-top (adverb)
heoos = as-far-as (preposition)
katoo = [the]-bottom (adverb)
eis = into (preposition)
duo, = two, (accusative neuter plural adjective)
kai = and (conjunction)
hee = the (nominative fem. singular definite article)
gee = earth (nominative fem. singular noun)
eseisthee, = was-shaken, (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person singular)
kai = and (conjunction)
hai = the (nominative fem. plural definite article)
petrai = rocks (nominative fem. plural noun)
eschistheesan, = were-split (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person plural)
52 kai = 52 and (conjunction)
ta = the (nominative neuter plural definite article)
mneemeia = tombs (nominative neuter plural noun)
aneoochtheesan = were-opened (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person plural)
kai = and (conjunction)
polla = many (nominative neuter plural adjective)
soomata = bodies (nominative neuter plural noun)
toon = of-the (genitive masc. plural definite article)
kekoimeemenoon = sleeping-ones (perfect participle middle/active verb - genitive masc. plural)
hagioon = holy (genitive masc. plural adjective)
eegertheesan; = were-awakened; (aorist indicative passive verb - 3rd person plural)
53 kai = 53 and (conjunction)
exelthontes = having-gone-forth (aorist participle active verb - nominative masc. plural)
ek = out (preposition)
toon = of-the (genitive neuter plural definite article)
mneemeioon = tombs (genitive neuter plural noun)
meta = after (preposition)
teen = the (accusative fem. sing. definite article)
egersin = resurrection; awakening (accusative fem. sing. noun)
autou = of-Him (genitive masc. 3rd person masc. sing. personal pronoun)
eiseelthon = they-entered (aorist indicative active verb - 3rd person plural)
eis = into (preposition)
teen = the (accusative fem. sing. definite article)
hagian = holy (accusative fem. sing. adjective)
polin = city (accusative fem. sing. noun)
kai = and (conjunction)
enefanistheesan = made-themselves-known (aorist indicative passive - 3rd person plural)
pollois. = to-many. (adjective-dative masc. plural)

(Grammatical parts of speech as given by BibleHub.)

Therefore, the verbs in verses 52 and 53 have a different case and weren't done at the same time. The "being awakened" was done PRIOR TO the "going forth out of the tombs."

The Greek verbs for Opened, Arose, Came Out, and Went in are all Aorist Tense verses that are inflected to show no tense (timing information) at all.  That is why it is very difficult to prove anything here conclusively.

[Retrobyter]

21 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Because it is speaking to what is accomplished as a result, upon completion.  Why does it specify it comes AFTER?  Because it does maybe?  I mean, you would have to ask God why He arranges things the way He does.

Shalom, wingnut-.

I don't see Matthew 27:50-53 as the same event as the resurrection of Matthew 28:11-15. Indeed, I see the equating of the two as a way to excuse an inappropriate interpretation of Ephesians 4:8:

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV)

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

This interpretation says that Yeshua` the Messiah "led captivity captive" when He took His "prisoners" from the "Paradise" in the center of the earth with Him to "Heaven."

But this is a POOR interpretation of this verse and it does NOT fit in context, neither in Ephesians 4 nor in the context of Psalm 68:18, as though there were OTHERS who were part of the "firstfruits" of Yeshua`s resurrection.

While there WERE resurrections at Yeshua`s death, they were of the same caliber as the resurrections of Jairus' daughter, the widow's son, and Elezar ("Lazarus"). They were physical resurrections that were indeed miracles, but not to eternal life. Their lives were extended, but they would have to die again in time.

After their resurrections and entry into Jerusalem, we read no more about them.

Here's the context of Psalm 68:18, the whole psalm:

Psalm 68:1-35 (KJV)

1 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David.}

Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.
4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him.
5 A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.
6 God setteth the solitary in families: he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

7 O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness; Selah:
8 The earth shook, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God: even Sinai itself was moved at the presence of God, the God of Israel.
9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful rain, whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.
10 Thy congregation hath dwelt therein: thou, O God, hast prepared of thy goodness for the poor.
11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.
13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.
14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.
15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan.
16 Why leap ye, ye high hills? this is the hill which God desireth to dwell in; yea, the LORD will dwell in it for ever.
17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels (messengers): the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also (like Korah), that the LORD God might dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation (rescue; deliverance). Selah.
20 He that is our God is the God of salvation (rescue; deliverance); and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.
21 But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses.

22 The Lord said,

I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:
23 That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same.

24 They have seen thy goings, O God; even the goings of my God, my King, in the sanctuary.
25 The singers went before, the players on instruments followed after; among them were the damsels playing with timbrels.
26 Bless ye God in the congregations, even the Lord, from the fountain of Israel.
27 There is little Benjamin with their ruler, the princes of Judah and their council, the princes of Zebulun, and the princes of Naphtali.
28 Thy God hath commanded thy strength: strengthen, O God, that which thou hast wrought for us.
29 Because of thy temple at Jerusalem shall kings bring presents unto thee.
30 Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war.
31 Princes shall come out of Egypt; Ethiopia shall soon stretch out her hands unto God.
32 Sing unto God, ye kingdoms of the earth; O sing praises unto the Lord; Selah:
33 To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.
34 Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.
35 O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: the God of Israel is he that giveth strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.

This psalm is about the future rescue or deliverance of God's people LIKE the deliverance of Israel from Egypt when Moses parted the Red Sea! The Mount Sinai is even mentioned in verse 17!

Now, look at the context of Ephesians 4:

Ephesians 4:1-16 (KJV)

1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech (beg) you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ (the Messiah's gift). 8 Wherefore he saith,

"When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." 

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts (valleys) of the earth (the land, not the planet)? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens [all skies], that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ (the Messiah): 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (the Messiah): 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ (the Messiah): 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

One does not have to invent an interpretation of verses 8 and 9. When Yeshua` humbled Himself to be baptized by John, He entered the Jordan River (the Yarden). The Dead Sea is below sea level, and the Yarden connects Lake Kinneret (the Sea of Galilee) to the Dead Sea. He was in one of the lowest valleys in the whole region.

However, He descended from the FATHER, having been the Word before His incarnation. ANYWHERE on earth is lower than the Father who is omnipresent!

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I don't see Matthew 27:50-53 as the same event as the resurrection of Matthew 28:11-15. Indeed, I see the equating of the two as a way to excuse an inappropriate interpretation of Ephesians 4:8:

 

Brother you can believe whatever you want to believe, doesn't matter to me.  You can call it an inappropriate interpretation, highlight words like poor, and whatever else you wish to do, I will just stick with the understanding I am led to, regardless of whether you like it or not.  I could go on and on about how poor or inappropriate it is to try and dismiss that this clearly states AFTER and you want to pretend it doesn't.

 

4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

After their resurrections and entry into Jerusalem, we read no more about them.

 

I'm sure you've noticed there are 24 elders in heaven before, but I don't recall ever seeing how you believe they got there.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Brother you can believe whatever you want to believe, doesn't matter to me.  You can call it an inappropriate interpretation, highlight words like poor, and whatever else you wish to do, I will just stick with the understanding I am led to, regardless of whether you like it or not.  I could go on and on about how poor or inappropriate it is to try and dismiss that this clearly states AFTER and you want to pretend it doesn't.

I'm sure you've noticed there are 24 elders in heaven before, but I don't recall ever seeing how you believe they got there.

 

God bless

I have believed these were the elders, but I cannot prove it - worse yet, the timing does not seem to allow it.

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have believed these were the elders, but I cannot prove it - worse yet, the timing does not seem to allow it.

 

It is fair to call it an assumption, I wouldn't disagree with that.  However the term elder is not unique to Revelation, and it is only used in regards to human beings any other time it is used.  As far as timing goes, it doesn't conflict with timing on my end.

God bless