The parable of the Tares

[Retrobyter]

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Brother you can believe whatever you want to believe, doesn't matter to me.  You can call it an inappropriate interpretation, highlight words like poor, and whatever else you wish to do, I will just stick with the understanding I am led to, regardless of whether you like it or not.  I could go on and on about how poor or inappropriate it is to try and dismiss that this clearly states AFTER and you want to pretend it doesn't.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Look, brother, what you believe DOES matter to me. What a person believes affects how a person behaves, reacts, and talks. I know I couldn't pick you out of a crowd, and I don't know you from Adam (not that I would even know HIM if I saw him), but you are my brother in the Lord, and having the spirit of Christ (the Messiah) within you, I care very much what you believe as though you were the Messiah Himself! And, what you believe affects how well the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) can have free rein in your life for your best and the best of those around you! I love you and yours!

I get weary from answering all these posts. I'm just about 62 years old, and I tire easily these days. I sweep all day and carry out trash such as metal studs and thousands of screws (that workers drop by the handfuls) and broken sheets of drywall, and I usually can't stay awake when I get home.

But, when I perk up, I will turn on my computer and load Worthy Forums, and write with a PASSION because I care, trying to get done before midnight so I can go to bed for a few hours and get up at 5:00 to do it all over again!

I treat my Shabbats VERY seriously, talking more with God than with anyone online, and chores around the house are on Sunday.

BUT, let's look at it again....

I'll "zoom" out a little and take in more of the passage:

Matthew 27:27-61 (KJV)

27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. 28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. 29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying,

"Hail, King of the Jews!"

30 And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. 31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

32 And as they (the soldiers with Yeshua`) came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

33 And when they (the soldiers with Yeshua`) were come unto a place called "Golgotha," that is to say, "a place of a skull," 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

35 And they (the soldiers) crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. 36 And sitting down they watched (Greek: eteeroun = "they were guarding") him there; 37 And set up over his head his accusation written, "THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS."

38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. 39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 40 And saying,

"Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself! If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross!" 

41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 

42 "He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."

44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias (Eliyahu or Elijah)!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him!"

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 

51 And, behold (look! get this!), the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves (tombs) AFTER his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus (Greek: teerountes ton Ieesoun = "guarding the Yeshua`"), saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this WAS (Greek: een = "was [imperfect indicative active verb, 3rd person singular]") the Son of God (literally, the Greek is "Aleethoos theou huios een houtos!" = "Truly of a god a son was this!" with no definite articles, or rearranged for English, "Truly this was a son of a god!" Remember, these were ROMAN soldiers.)

55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children (James and John).

57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. 61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

There are TWO steps to this resurrection: First, the people RISE; that is, they come BACK TO LIFE, and second, they come out of the tombs. In a practical sense, the translators thought as you do and figured that the two steps occurred together, but from a grammatical point of view, the two steps were separated by the 3 (or less) days. And, the details of the context shows that the points you made are not as strong as you'd like them to be.

10 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I'm sure you've noticed there are 24 elders in heaven before, but I don't recall ever seeing how you believe they got there.

God bless

Here, you're forgetting my definition of "heaven" being "the sky." At BEST, it may be talking about the New Jerusalem, but the timing is thrown off by the fact that what John sees is a VISION!

[iamlamad]

On 10/24/2019 at 5:27 AM, Retrobyter said:

After their resurrections and entry into Jerusalem, we read no more about them.

Of course not: they went to heaven after being seen. 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/24/2019 at 8:57 PM, wingnut- said:

I'm sure you've noticed there are 24 elders in heaven before, but I don't recall ever seeing how you believe they got there.

God bless

---

It is fair to call it an assumption, I wouldn't disagree with that.  However the term elder is not unique to Revelation, and it is only used in regards to human beings any other time it is used.  As far as timing goes, it doesn't conflict with timing on my end.

God bless

Shabbat shalom, wingnut-.

The elders - older ones - in the Tanakh were the leaders - the heads - of the individual tribes or clans or families of Israel. All of them were children of Israel - descendants from Yisra'el, who was first named "Ya`aqov" ("Jacob"), the grandson of Avraham ("Abraham") and son of Yitschaq ("Isaac").

They began with the twelve sons of Israel.

R'uwVeen - Reuben - Genesis 29:32 (Lee'aah)
Shim`own - Simeon - Genesis 29:33 (Lee'aah)
Leeviy - Levi - Genesis 29:34 (Lee'aah)
Yhudaah - Judah - Genesis 29:35 (Lee'aah)
Dan - Dan - Genesis 30:6 (Bilhaah)
Naftaaliy - Naphtali - Genesis 30:8 (Bilhaah)
Gaad - Gad - Genesis 30:11 (Zilpaah)
Aasheer - Asher - Genesis 30:13 (Zilpaah)
Yisaashkhar - Issachar - Genesis 30:18 (Lee'aah)
ZVuluwn - Zebulun - Genesis 30:20 (Lee'aah)
(Diynaah) - Dinah - Genesis 30:21 (Lee'aah's daughter))
Yowceef - Joseph - Genesis 30:24 (Raacheel)
[GOD RENAMES YA`AQOV TO YISRA'EL - Genesis 35:10]
Bin-Yaamiyn - Benjamin - Genesis 35:18 (Raacheel)

These were the twelve who went into Egypt. Four hundred thirty years later, they left Egypt in the Exodus a great people, and Leviy's tribe was given the special inheritance of the priesthood for all of Israel. The sons of Yosef ("Joseph") were given the status of equal shares with the other ten brothers of Yosef, and Efraayim ("Ephraim") and Mnasheh ("Manasseh") were blessed with tribes of their own. (Genesis 48:16.)

There were 70 elders at the time of Mosheh ("Moses") when the Covenant was made:

Exodus 24:1-11 (KJV)

1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off. 2 And Moses alone shall come near the LORD: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.

3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. 6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Every generation has its own elders - its own "old ones." As is the nature of human life, these die and a new generation has its own elders. They are the ones who should have the greater wisdom among the people, having lived longer and gone through more experiences. They are more experienced; therefore, they should have the greater wisdom. They are less hot-headed than the young adults in the tribes, who are prone to making rash decisions.

Therefore, when THEY make a decision, the people should be more resolved to follow their leadership, being confident that the matter has been thoroughly considered.

In Matthew 19, we read,...

Matthew 19:27-30 (KJV)

27 Then answered Peter and said unto him,

"Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?"

28 And Jesus said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

In Acts 15, we read of other elders within the body of those children of Israel who believed that Yeshua` was indeed the Messiah of God and died, was buried, and rose again the third day, when they decided that Gentiles (foreigners from Israel) were also brought into their number by God.

In short, we DON'T KNOW who the "24 elders" are, but some have surmised since

24 = 2 x 12

that they will consist of the 12 sons of Ya`aqov and the 12 original Apostles (with the exception of Judas Iscariot and including Matthias or Paul as the 12th), for the original 24 men would be the NATURAL authorities - experienced elders - among the children of Israel and the ones who believe that Yeshua` is indeed the Messiah of God, which also include believing Gentiles.

However, to be fair, this is merely a GUESS! But, if it is accurate, then we are talking about these men who had, by this time in Revelation, already been RESURRECTED, ALL 24 of them!

As an aside note, wasn't John one of the 12? Then, if the 12 Apostles were part of the 24 elders, was John seeing a future version of HIMSELF? Just something else to think about.

Now, where else have we heard about something similar to being "set in the sky?" How about,

Revelation 19:17-18 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

With a diameter of 864,340 miles and 109 times wider than the earth, the sun is FAR too big to actually be stood upon and be seen from earth 93,000,000 miles away! Furthermore, it is made of helium and hydrogen gas in the plasma state of matter, with constant nuclear fusion explosions going on. So, how does ANYTHING or ANYONE "stand in the sun?" The answer is ... one doesn't.

When one stands on the earth at SUNRISE (or at SUNSET) with the sun behind him, one is "standing in the sun."

The same can be said for "thrones set in heaven" or "set in the sky." The sky typically goes from ground level to an average of 9 miles high, and "space" doesn't begin until 50 miles up. Low Earth Orbit is said to begin at 100 miles up to 1,240 miles high, where most of the satellites are "parked."

Objects, such as "thrones," are physical and are susceptible to the force of gravity, as are the ones who can "sit" upon them. If they are in the air, they SHALL fall.

However, IF a throne is set upon a mountain top, it is "in the sky" to all below, and where is Jerusalem? It's UPON A MOUNTAIN RANGE! In fact, there are SEVERAL peaks within the Jerusalem area.

No, the elders are after the First Resurrection, results of the First Resurrection. Only Yeshua` was the "Firstfruits" of Resurrection.

[wingnut-]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, the elders are after the First Resurrection, results of the First Resurrection. Only Yeshua` was the "Firstfruits" of Resurrection.

 

Well, we agree they are people at least.  I agree trying to determine who those 24 are is merely speculation, but the 12 sons of Jacob possibly account for half of them.  I also think it could really be anyone from earlier OT writings, names like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, even Jacob himself would be possibilities.  The apostles I am not so sure about, in the grand scheme of time they don't really fit with the idea of elder to me, but I suppose we will see.

As far as the timing, the 24 elders are there from the beginning of Revelation, so again, it doesn't align with what you present.  All those tombs that opened up though certainly does explain why they are there, and when that happened.

 

Happy birthday brother!  

God bless

[iamlamad]

One thing is certain, there can be only one "firstfruit." The next would be a secondfruit.

[Retrobyter]

On 10/27/2019 at 9:34 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Well, we agree they are people at least.  I agree trying to determine who those 24 are is merely speculation, but the 12 sons of Jacob possibly account for half of them.  I also think it could really be anyone from earlier OT writings, names like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, even Jacob himself would be possibilities.  The apostles I am not so sure about, in the grand scheme of time they don't really fit with the idea of elder to me, but I suppose we will see.

As far as the timing, the 24 elders are there from the beginning of Revelation, so again, it doesn't align with what you present.  All those tombs that opened up though certainly does explain why they are there, and when that happened.

 

Happy birthday brother!  

God bless

Shalom, wingnut-.

Thanks for the birthday wish. I did enjoy it, and went to bed early, for a change.

You're not understanding the exchange in Revelation. Yochanan ("John") passes into a vision of the VERY end, in which the rest are MEMORIES of what had happened by that time.

Consider the following:

Revelation 4:1-4 (KJV)

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven (not a place but a DIRECTION): and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said,

"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

2 And immediately I was in the spirit (on the wind): and, behold, a throne was set in heaven (in the sky), and one sat on the throne. 3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Compare this to the following:

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything. For the throne of God and of the Lamb will be there, and his servants will worship him. 4 And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads. 5 And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever.

And then, consider all the times that the "throne of God" and the "One seated on the throne" are mentioned between the two. How many times do you find these phrases? Go through the book of Revelation and count them.

 

[Retrobyter]

On 10/28/2019 at 8:16 PM, iamlamad said:

One thing is certain, there can be only one "firstfruit." The next would be a secondfruit.

Shalom, iamlamad.

Amen ("Truth") to that!

[wingnut-]

On 10/28/2019 at 8:16 PM, iamlamad said:

One thing is certain, there can be only one "firstfruit." The next would be a secondfruit.

 

16 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, iamlamad.

Amen ("Truth") to that!

 

Yes and no, if all scripture is truth, then you have to account for these words as well.

 

Jeremiah 2  The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the Lord,

“I remember the devotion of your youth,
    your love as a bride,
how you followed me in the wilderness,
    in a land not sown.
3 Israel was holy to the Lord,
    the firstfruits of his harvest.
All who ate of it incurred guilt;
    disaster came upon them,
declares the Lord.”

 

 

[Retrobyter]

20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

 

Yes and no, if all scripture is truth, then you have to account for these words as well.

 

Jeremiah 2  The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem, Thus says the Lord,

“I remember the devotion of your youth,
    your love as a bride,
how you followed me in the wilderness,
    in a land not sown.
3 Israel was holy to the Lord,
    the firstfruits of his harvest.
All who ate of it incurred guilt;
    disaster came upon them,
declares the Lord.”

 

 

Shalom, wingnut-.

Easy enough. "Israel" ("Ya`aqov" or "Jacob") was A SINGLE person! All of the CHILDREN of Israel were in his loins from the very beginning.  

Hebrews 7:4-10 (KJV)

4 Now consider how great this man (Malkhiy-Tsedeq) was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6 But he whose descent is not counted from them (Malkhiy-Tsedeq) received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. 7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better. 8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. 9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec (Malkhiy-Tsedeq) met him.

Notice the translation word "was" is in verse 3 of Jeremiah 2, not "were" - the singular, not the plural. Also, the word "it" was used instead of "them" in the phrase "all who ate of IT," referring to the "firstfruits."

[wingnut-]

3 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Easy enough. "Israel" ("Ya`aqov" or "Jacob") was A SINGLE person! All of the CHILDREN of Israel were in his loins from the very beginning.

 

Amen brother, good stuff.  Now, to go further with this, we also have these examples.  Starting with the 144,000.

 

Revelation 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

 

And then the gentiles.

 

II Thessalonians 2:13   But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

 

No such thing as secondfruits.

 

God bless