The devil's regional interest in Israel and its end times plan for the Temple Mount.

[Serving]

On 6/23/2020 at 6:42 PM, Diaste said:

I known you didn't ask me this question but it's here:

"19 For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. 22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 

23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD." - Eze 38

This is the wrath of God, the same as in Rev 6 and Rev 16.

"12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" - Rev 6

"17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great. 

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, [every stone] about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." - Rev 16

There is a great deal of similarity in the language in Eze 38, Rev 6 and 16, enough to conclude it's all the same time/space moment. Eze 38:23 says, "I shall be known in the eyes of many nations, they shall now I am the Lord." I don't think this circumstance is possible after the millennium; not with Jesus reigning for 1000 years in a vast city built a gemstone foundation sporting pearly gates and considering the other attributes of the Millennial Reign. It's just not possible the people would be ignorant of the Lord and who He is.

And after the millennium; "9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." No earthquake, no hail, no cites falling, etc. The language is very different here. 

So this Gog Magog thing happens twice; once at Armageddon, once after the Millennium.

 

Thanks for showing that.

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And after the millennium; "9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." No earthquake, no hail, no cites falling, etc. The language is very different here. 

 This is from Revelation, but revelation only touches on the subject, it is generalising, thus if we want the details, then we must go to Ezekiel .. just as we all did .. and nowhere in Ezekiel do I find a separation into two prophetic time frames, instead I find one continuous narration about a one time event yet to come. And when reading it that way, as a one time event, then we do find a great earthquake, hail, fire & brimstone:

Ezekiel 38

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

or

Ezekiel 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

So here is the thing, it needs to be shown exactly where in Ezekiel you and others believe this separation into two time events occurs .. Revelation does not have the details, it only reveals the end result. that is, fire consumes them ..

But this is exactly what Ezekiel reveals too .. fire & brimstone !!! God is revealing in Ezekiel how He devours them with fire, a more precise understanding than one can glean just from Revelations brief mention of it.

Only Ezekiel has the in depth details, so if there is any separation, it must surely be shown from Ezekiel itself .. where the in depth details themselves are found.

 

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Eze 38:23 says, "I shall be known in the eyes of many nations, they shall now I am the Lord." I don't think this circumstance is possible after the millennium; not with Jesus reigning for 1000 years in a vast city built a gemstone foundation sporting pearly gates and considering the other attributes of the Millennial Reign. It's just not possible the people would be ignorant of the Lord and who He is.

 

To keep from writing a novel, tomorrow or the next day, I will reply to what you said above.

Cheers.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Serving

[Diaste]

 

3 hours ago, Serving said:

So here is the thing, it needs to be shown exactly where in Ezekiel you and others believe this separation into two time events occurs .. Revelation does not have the details, it only reveals the end result. that is, fire consumes them ..

But this is exactly what Ezekiel reveals too .. fire & brimstone !!! God is revealing in Ezekiel how He devours them with fire, a more precise understanding than one can glean just from Revelations brief mention of it.

Only Ezekiel has the in depth details, so if there is any separation, it must surely be shown from Ezekiel itself .. where the in depth details themselves are 

Yes. But the idea is to point out the similarities between Ezekiel 38 and the wrath of God as depicted in Revelation 6 and 16 at the final battle. That's the parallel. The event is too similar to each other in the description to ignore. Rev 6 and 16 happen before the millennium and those citations parallel Ezekiel 38. 

The fire from heaven is after the thousand years. And its different in execution. Jesus arrives and fights on earth in Ezekiel and fire comes out of heaven from the Father after the millennium. 

[Sister]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

"Time" in both Daniel and Revelation when written as time, times and half of time is very clear: it is speaking of a YEAR. When it is written as season and a time, it is speaking of a smaller period of time plus a year: it could be a year and a month, or a year and two months. It most certainly is NOT the 1000 years. 

 

iamlamad

I was not implying that 'a time' equals a thousand years, but when he said 'a season'. 

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Next, it is A MAN thrown into the lake of fire, not an empire! An "empire" cannot be thrown into the lake of fire: PEOPLE get thrown in.  And "rest of the Beasts" is speaking of KINGS or PRESIDENTS or LEADERS or nations.  It remains to be seen WHO this is speaking of. I would guess probably three out of the 7 that the Beast is the king over. 

The False Prophet is a man.  He is going into the lake of fire.

The beast is the end time ruling kingdom, ruled by the ten kings.  The ten kings are just in charge, but it's that whole ruling system of the earth, ruled by men which is going into the lake of fire.  That old system will be forever gone.   Man did a bad job, because he was influenced by Satan.  The new system will be ruled by Christ and his saints influenced by God.

[Sister]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can we please just stick to the text and leave imagination at home?

Isaiah 1:8   And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

 

Do you think this is just speaking about the Jews?

 

Isaiah 37:22   This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

  Isaiah 37:23   Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

 

Isaiah 52:2   Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

 

Lamentations 1:6   And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts that find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.

 

Lamentations 2:8   The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.

Lamentations 2:10   The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.

 

1 Peter 4:17   For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

I was not implying that 'a time' equals a thousand years, but when he said 'a season'. 

The False Prophet is a man.  He is going into the lake of fire.

The beast is the end time ruling kingdom, ruled by the ten kings.  The ten kings are just in charge, but it's that whole ruling system of the earth, ruled by men which is going into the lake of fire.  That old system will be forever gone.   Man did a bad job, because he was influenced by Satan.  The new system will be ruled by Christ and his saints influenced by God.

It makes little difference since Daniel was not speaking or even thinking of a thousand years, but just a little over a year. 

Agreed: the false prophet is a man, but so is the first beast a man. Both end up in the lake of fire.

Sorry, but the Beast in Rev. 13 is a MAN.  A "kingdom" is not thrown into the lake of fire: MEN are. However, I will give you partial credit: the Beast as a Man is the 8th king over the seven kings. Forget "system." You can't find that word anywhere in prophecy.  It is not a "system."  It is FALSE worship  - people worshiping the Beast, and the devil behind the beast - rather than God. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Sister said:

Isaiah 1:8   And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

 

Do you think this is just speaking about the Jews?

 

Isaiah 37:22   This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee.

  Isaiah 37:23   Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

 

Isaiah 52:2   Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

 

Lamentations 1:6   And from the daughter of Zion all her beauty is departed: her princes are become like harts that find no pasture, and they are gone without strength before the pursuer.

 

Lamentations 2:8   The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.

Lamentations 2:10   The elders of the daughter of Zion sit upon the ground, and keep silence: they have cast up dust upon their heads; they have girded themselves with sackcloth: the virgins of Jerusalem hang down their heads to the ground.

 

1 Peter 4:17   For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

Sister, this is a nice sidestep, but these are not the scriptures you were talking about. Why do you doubt a REAL "brick and mortar" temple? It is the only kind that can have worshipers inside worshiping. It is the only kind that has a real court without that will be given to the gentiles.

Do you not understand? Rev. 11:1-2 is the man of sin moving to Jerusalem, just days before he will enter the real, physical temple - into the most holy place, and declare he is God. He must BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem. He will come with Gentile armies who will trample the city for 42 months. 

Revelation 18:4 "come out of her" is speaking of the city of Jerusalem. God will warn His people to leave the city because the nations of the world will send their armies to wipe Israel off the map: we call that Armageddon. Anyway, almost everything you said in that post was imagination. 

[R. Hartono]

On 6/23/2020 at 9:44 PM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

... Yes, 'Islam' will eventually take over, and the one who comes gloriously ending the Islamic based world war, will be hailed as the 'savoir' of the world..

The arrival of beast #2 is a very grand and elaborate deception such that many believe the lie.

 

 

 

We hv seen Pope invited muslim recitation in vatican a few years ago, isnt that funky ?

[R. Hartono]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:20 PM, Diaste said:

Which can happen after the final battle in the first years of the millennium. 

Zechariah 14 says there are survivors of the battle against the Lord.

Agreed. 

Imho Lord Jesus Will make sure there Will be no wars under His government, all enemies were defeated at Armageddon before He return n land on Zion.

Imho Yes there will be survivors of nations which sent its armies against Jerusalem but not those armies of the world in Armageddon battle.

[Sister]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sister, this is a nice sidestep, but these are not the scriptures you were talking about.

iamlamad

This is not a sidestep.

If you don't understand who Zion is, you cannot interpret correctly.

Zion is God's holy city on earth.  His invisible city where the saints dwell.

Zion is crying for her children, because most of them have gone astray.  They are sick.

but ....for the sake of her obedient children, a line will be drawn.  That is the measuring of the temple.

The temple that is measured is not a physical temple, but consists of the loyal.

Those that are in that temple standing at the altar being measured are not the FP's people, but God's elect.  The rest are thrust outside into the court, to be trodden on by the gentiles.

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Why do you doubt a REAL "brick and mortar" temple? It is the only kind that can have worshipers inside worshiping. It is the only kind that has a real court without that will be given to the gentiles.

I do not doubt a brick and mortar temple, but that temple is not the one being measured.  It is not God's temple.  God's temple is so small, it only consists of a small number. 

God is measuring his own temple.

Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

The court is where Zion's other children stand.  Now they have to go through the fire to have their robes washed clean.  They are without the temple. 

Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 

 Daniel 7:21   I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

 

We don't want to be found standing in the court.  Simple.  God will decide who goes where.

 

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Do you not understand? Rev. 11:1-2 is the man of sin moving to Jerusalem, just days before he will enter the real, physical temple - into the most holy place, and declare he is God. He must BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple in Jerusalem. He will come with Gentile armies who will trample the city for 42 months. 

Iamlamad, there is no real physical temple that belongs to God.  That temple you speak of is not a holy place, but an abomination.  It has nothing to do with God.  It says 'the holy city".  You automatically think of Jerusalem.  Do you think Jerusalem is holy?  That holy city he is referring to is Zion.  The children there acknowledge God, or claim to.  They are from all over the world.

 

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Revelation 18:4 "come out of her" is speaking of the city of Jerusalem. God will warn His people to leave the city because the nations of the world will send their armies to wipe Israel off the map: we call that Armageddon.

No, it's talking about Babylon, not Jerusalem.  Babylon is the opposite to Zion.  Babylon is of the world.  Not of God.  God is calling his children to come out of her because they have one foot in each kingdom.  Be separate of the world as Jesus said.

 Revelation 18:2   And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

  Revelation 18:3   For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

  Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

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Anyway, almost everything you said in that post was imagination. 

Maybe to you, but to me, the truth is precious and I have much rejoicing in it.

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Sister

[iamlamad]

On 6/25/2020 at 6:57 AM, Sister said:

iamlamad

This is not a sidestep.

If you don't understand who Zion is, you cannot interpret correctly.

Zion is God's holy city on earth.  His invisible city where the saints dwell.

Zion is crying for her children, because most of them have gone astray.  They are sick.

but ....for the sake of her obedient children, a line will be drawn.  That is the measuring of the temple.

The temple that is measured is not a physical temple, but consists of the loyal.

Those that are in that temple standing at the altar being measured are not the FP's people, but God's elect.  The rest are thrust outside into the court, to be trodden on by the gentiles.

I do not doubt a brick and mortar temple, but that temple is not the one being measured.  It is not God's temple.  God's temple is so small, it only consists of a small number. 

God is measuring his own temple.

Revelation 11:1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

 

The court is where Zion's other children stand.  Now they have to go through the fire to have their robes washed clean.  They are without the temple. 

Revelation 11:2   But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
 

 Daniel 7:21   I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

 

We don't want to be found standing in the court.  Simple.  God will decide who goes where.

 

Iamlamad, there is no real physical temple that belongs to God.  That temple you speak of is not a holy place, but an abomination.  It has nothing to do with God.  It says 'the holy city".  You automatically think of Jerusalem.  Do you think Jerusalem is holy?  That holy city he is referring to is Zion.  The children there acknowledge God, or claim to.  They are from all over the world.

 

No, it's talking about Babylon, not Jerusalem.  Babylon is the opposite to Zion.  Babylon is of the world.  Not of God.  God is calling his children to come out of her because they have one foot in each kingdom.  Be separate of the world as Jesus said.

 Revelation 18:2   And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

  Revelation 18:3   For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

  Revelation 18:4   And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

Maybe to you, but to me, the truth is precious and I have much rejoicing in it. 

 

Yes, it was a side step because it ignored the previous verses in question.

His invisible city where the saints dwell.  You mean we are now living in an invisible city? Wow! I did not know! [/sarc]

but ....for the sake of her obedient children, a line will be drawn.  That is the measuring of the temple.  Why symbolize something when it makes perfect sense taken literally? Not only was there worshiper INSIDE this temple, it is the very same temple that the man of sin will enter and the very same temple where the daily sacrifices will be caused to cease. You see, all these verses make perfect sense taken literally.

Those that are in that temple standing at the altar being measured are not the FP's people, but God's elect. Right, taken literally at the time the temple will be measured, there will be people INSIDE worshiping: Jews that at least think they love God. Of course they are not the FP's people for this is before the abomination that will cause the temple to be defiled. 

I do not doubt a brick and mortar temple, but that temple is not the one being measured.  It is not God's temple.  God's temple is so small, it only consists of a small number.   How many could fit into the old temple? It was not a huge structure. What is the simplist reading? If we took a hundred beginning readers and ask them to read:

Then I was given a measuring stick, and I was told, “Go and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers...."

What would beginning readers think about this verse? Would they imagine some invisible temple? Why not just leave this in its literal sense as a temple John was told to measure?  Is there some other verse that demands this verse be symbolized? 

I prefer what God told me about 11:2.  This is only days before the man of sin will enter this real, physical temple, and declare he is God. How can he enter a temple in Jerusalem if he is in another city, such as Damascus or Rome. Answer: He cannot. He must first arrive in Jerusalem before he can enter the temple in Jerusalem. Verse 11:2 is about the arrival of the man of sin accompanied by Gentile soldiers. It is THEY, the Gentile soldiers that will trample the city. And from the day they arrive in Jerusalem, it will be 42 months later to the end of the week.  I cannot prove this is what 11:2 is about, but then, neither can anyone prove differently.  The two witnesses show up then BECAUSE the man of sin just arrived in Jerusalem. God knows very well what he man of sin is going to do. He wants witnesses on site.

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;  Sorry, but the timing of this will be after chapter 14 when the days of great tribulation will begin. In other words, it does not relate to the timing of chapter 11. Just so you will know, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven to mark the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god. Granted, the man of sin will turn into the Beast of chapter 13 and this "horn."

We don't want to be found standing in the court.    Note carefully: the raptured church was seen already in heaven as that great crowed too large to number - in chapter 7. This is chapter 11, some 3.5 years AFTER the rapture. We would be here to either enter the temple or trample the city. 

Iamlamad, there is no real physical temple that belongs to God.   Who has ever said it will be God's temple: It will be built by Jews. I guess then it will be the JEWISH or HEBREW temple. Surely you have kept up with things and know they are ready TODAY to do animal sacrifices. Now they need a PLACE. 

not a holy place, but an abomination.  It has nothing to do with God.  I beg to differ. If people are inside that temple worshiping God, then it DOES have something to do with God. You see, God in His great mercy can see the heart of some of the Jews and KNOW they love Him. He is not going to write them off, so to speak, because they don't know Jesus. God is going to give them a CHANCE to Know Him by allowing them to SEE HIM with the nail holes. How do you know that this temple John is told to measure will not be the very temple in Which Jesus will enter through the Eastern Gate? Does ANYONE know?

You automatically think of Jerusalem.   Yes, because GOD thinks of Jerusalem.

Matthew 4:5

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

 

Matthew 27:53

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

Was Jerusalem "holy" then - with the leaders called "vipers" by Jesus?  Had the city changed at the time Jesus arose? It was still considered by God to be the "holy City." Just so you know, "babylon" and "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation is speaking of Jerusalem.

 

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her

 

I hope you understand, it is from Jerusalem "that great city" where the Beast and False Prophet will deceive the WHOLE WORLD. That is why God will call Jerusalem as "mystery Babylon." John told us who he had in mind with "that great city."