Should Christians Obey Torah?

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:40 PM, Jayne said:

My concerns are that for people who say that Christians are bound by laws for ancient Israel is that so many of those laws would get you into trouble today if obeyed them explicitly and they serve no purpose for the Christian.

Imagine someone today burning their daughter to death just because she became pregnant out of wedlock.  Or killing their young adult son by throwing rocks at his head if he is recalcitrant.  They would go to jail and deservedly so.  There was a purpose for such harshness at that time.  God was creating a nation through which Jesus Christ would come.  They had to be a pure and holy nation.  Despite the law and God's guiding them - they were an unholy people much of the time.

Wearing clothes made of only one fabric?  That's just not feasible today.  Certain blends of fabrics make for sturdier clothing.  Besides, the purpose of that law and the law of singular crops in a field was to teach separatism.  

Doing these things, killing our daughters when promiscuous.  Killing our sons when rebellious.  Grace does not permit that.

I love the Old Testament and have taught it more than once.  The current group I am studying with is about 2/3's of the way finished.  We are very excited.

To study the laws, and Christians should study the entire Bible including the laws, begats, and the repetitious nature of it,  is to find that here's richness untold in the Old Testament, but not in following all of the laws.

Jesus said to obey his laws.  He gave three of them.

1.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

3.  Love each other as he [Christ] has loved us.

That takes care of it all.

 

 

" My concerns are that for people who say that Christians are bound by laws for ancient Israel is that so many of those laws would get you into trouble today if obeyed them explicitly and they serve no purpose for the Christian. "

Very true....and I believe that part of our "punishment" for having corporately sinned against God includes the following punishments:

1. We are scattered throughout the planet

2. We are thus unable to 100% obey all Torah.

3. We are subject to the civil ordinances of whatever government controls our present residence while in diaspora.

But this will all change...we WILL again return to obey 100% of all Torah, and we WILL be restored to the land promised to us, where we can properly perform all Torah.

But, what Torah portions should we obey prior to our return from diaspora?  The only good answer is:  We must grow in faithful obedience to all PRESENTLY OBSERVABLE Torah portions.

 

"There was a purpose for such harshness at that time."

And there will be purpose again (Dt.30:1-8) in the future, it appears.

 

"Wearing clothes made of only one fabric?  That's just not feasible today. "

I'm not sure that's the actually command.....

It actually says not to mix צֶמֶר  and פֵּשֶׁת

It does NOT say "wear clothes made of only one fabric"....

We must be careful not to add to God's instructions for us!  (Dt.4:2)

 

"Besides, the purpose of that law and the law of singular crops in a field was to teach separatism.  "

Careful!  I want to be sure I do not use my presumed understanding of the rationale for a commandment....well...as an excuse to disobey it, if it's presently observable.

That's why I want to investigate the true meaning of צֶמֶר  and פֵּשֶׁת to make sure I don't disobey that command.

 

"Doing these things, killing our daughters when promiscuous.  Killing our sons when rebellious.  Grace does not permit that."

Actually, grace IS present in the Torah (e.g., Ex.33:13).  So, I think you're incorrect on that one.

 

"Jesus said to obey his laws.  He gave three of them."

Actually, Jesus gave ALL the laws to us (Mt.5:19), lest you be least (Mt.5:19), or worse (Mt.5:20), or worse (Mt.7:21-23) or worse (Mt.13:41-42).

 

After all, Jesus applies Dt. 6 to you (Mt.22:37). And Dt. 6 (in CONTEXT!) requires obedience to ALL Torah (Dt.6:25), not merely the three commands you cited.

 

"That takes care of it all."

Actually, that SUMS(Gr. " ἀνακεφαλαιόω ", Rom.13:9) it all....but a SUMMARY is not a REPLACEMENT.

Thus, Paul applies ALL Torah to us (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

John applies ALL Torah to us (1Jn.2:3;5:3).

Stephen requires ALL Torah (Ac.6:10-15).

Peter even applies Lev. 11 to us explicitly quoting it (1Pe.1:16).

This should not be a surprise...after all, WE partake in the New Covenant which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10)...so OF COURSE we should obey it!

blessings.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:43 PM, Wayne222 said:

We should not obey Torah. We are to take up our cross and follow jesus. This is not torah but newness of life in christ. Why do you want to put others under the law ? The Apostles said in acts we gave no commandment to keep the law of Moses. But only four commandments not to eat blood. Not to comit sexual sin. Not to eat strangle meat. And things polluted by idols. They said why are you testing God by putting a yoke on the neck of the  disciples. We should learn from this.

Hi there!  Thanks for sharing your opinion....but you gave no Scripture to support your position....

And you did NOT address the many Scriptures I cited in support of my position.....

Do you have any BIBLICAL evidence to support your opinion?

Yes, you cited Acts....but Acts merely proves that GENTILES need not obey TORAH+CIRCUMCISION to be SAVED (Gr. " σῴζω ", Ac. 15:1,11).

The context of Acts 15 is SALVATION, not SANCTIFICATION.

That SAME PAUL (present in Ac. 15) applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16).

And does Ac. 15 cancel Jesus?  Surely not!  Jesus says we are sanctified by truth (Jn.17:17)...and TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142)...thus we are sanctified in growing faithful obedience to Torah.

After all, Jesus DOES require ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)...right?

"Why do you want to put others under the law ? "

WHICH law?  There are two Torahs (Dt.30:11-15)...

TORAH #1  The law of disobedience and death (which does NOT apply to us, Rom.8:2)

TORAH #2 The law of obedience and life (which DOES apply! Mt.4:4;5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;Lk.10:25-28).

Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4).

 

"why are you testing God by putting a yoke on the neck of the  disciples."

Careful!  The yoke of Ac. 15 is an UNBIBLICAL yoke.....after all, the Bible does NOT require TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of Gentile salvation.....THAT is why the apostles opposed it.

And THAT is why Paul opposes adult circumcision, but still requires ALL TORAH (1Cor.7:19).....because Torah only requires INFANT circumcision (Lev.12:3), not adult Gentile circumcision.

 

Remember, Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) and PERFECTION (Mt.5:48), and Jesus said it's EASY! (Mt.11:30).

CONCLUSION:  The yoke of TORAH required by Jesus is EASY!

Thank you....

blessings....

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:53 PM, Tampered With said:

Not to forget the difference between God's laws and man's traditions as well as their laws that they raised to the level of God's Laws by such as the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Matthew 5:17-19 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

¹⁷ Do not think that I have come to do away with or ^[a]undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.

¹⁸ For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.

¹⁹ Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Yes!  This passage in Mt. 5 confirms we should obey Torah...

Thank you!

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:57 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

“ All Those That wish to be under the Law are also under the CURSE of the Law.” If you break just  “ one” Law, you have broken them all.....have you trimmed your beard lately? Have you killed any of your children for being disrespectful ?  For the love of Pete! Give it up already! You don’t keep the Law and you CANT keep the Law.It was given to drive you to your knees, to show you that you were a sinner that needed Savior.....The reaction to seeing the utter hopelessness Of truly keeping the Law should elicit two reactions—- “ woe is me” and “ God , have mercy on me a sinner” . The Law is there to “ shut the mouth” of all who try and fail to keep it.If you fail to shut up about the Law as a means of Salvation......you have missed the entire point of it and you are as lost as lost can be.....Obey the Law as best you can .....You will be blessed for that wise endeavor— you won’t be saved,however.Obey the Gospel Of 1cor15:2-4 and rest in it if you seek Salvation....that is the   Plan Of God, this side of the Cross.....in this splendid Age Of Grace.

""All Those That wish to be under the Law are also under the CURSE of the Law.

TRUE!  IF we do not have faith.

Thus, Paul requires LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER for justification.

 

"If you break just  “ one” Law, you have broken them all"

GREAT reason to keep obeying Torah, thanks!

 

"have you trimmed your beard lately? "

Not all beard-trimmings are anti-Torah....careful!

 

"Have you killed any of your children for being disrespectful ?"

Why assume that 100% of all Torah is presently observable?

Dt. 30:1-8 states we can not again obey 100% until AFTER we return to inherit the land.

So, we can only obey in part right now.....

 

"Give it up already! "

I DO NOT recommend you say this to Jesus (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

 

"You don’t keep the Law and you CANT keep the Law."

Moses lied? (Dt.30:11).  Of course not!  You CAN obey Torah!

Luke lied? (Lk.1:6).  Of course not!  You CAN obey Torah!

Sure, we can't obey 100% of ALL Torah until we return to the land (Dt.30:1-8)....so obey what you can.....

 

"It was given to drive you to your knees, to show you that you were a sinner that needed Savior"

So now that we are saved we can disobey Torah and keep sinning?  Of course not!  STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (given Rom.3:20;7:7).

 

"The reaction to seeing the utter hopelessness Of truly keeping the Law"

To the contrary, our HOPE (Eph.2:12) is in CONJUNCTION with partaking in the COVENANTS (Eph.2:12) which are given as TORAH (e.g., Jer.31:33).

So, you've got an unbiblical connection in your mind between HOPE and LAW.

 

" God , have mercy on me a sinner"

Yes!  So STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) means OBEY TORAH (because Torah-disobedience is sin, Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4).

 

"The Law is there to “ shut the mouth” of all who try and fail to keep it."

Sure....for those who have no FAITH.

But Paul requires LAW (Rom.2:13) and FAITH (Rom.5:1) TOGETHER.

Not Law alone (Gal.5:4-5).

Not faith alone (says James 2:24).

But BOTH.

TOGETHER for justification.

 

"If you fail to shut up about the Law as a means of Salvation......you have missed the entire point of it and you are as lost as lost can be"

That's NOT what Jesus says!  Jesus says Torah-obedience is sufficient for ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

 

"you have missed the entire point of it"

I see your point...but it's not Biblical...and you have NOT engaged the Biblical evidence I've set forth in support of my biblical position...

 

"Obey the Law as best you can .....You will be blessed for that wise endeavor— you won’t be saved,however"

Jesus said Torah-obedience DOES guarantee ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

After all, if you obey Torah, then you obey Dt. 18:15 which requires obeying JESUS which leads to eternal life!

 

"Obey the Gospel Of 1cor15:2-4"

PAUL's Gospel is the word of faith which he preached....

And Paul said TORAH (Dt.30:14) IS that very word of faith (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8).

 

" this splendid Age Of Grace."

Grace is NOT new.

It's in Ex. 33:13...and the proper response to Grace is to seek to know God's ways (Ex.33:13) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

SAME grace.

SAME Torah passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16).

blessings....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:05 PM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Great post.....please allow me to make that list of Laws even smaller—-1john3:33–“ And this is His commandment , that we should BELIEVE on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and LOVE one another”. 613  commandments given by Moses to be kept perfectly 24/7 or Two commands given by Jesus......take your pick and remember your Eternal Destiny is at stake.....

"613  commandments given by Moses"

Actually, that's NOT the correct number....Dt. 4:15 did not even make the list!

"Two commands given by Jesus"

OOPS!  Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19).

".take your pick "

Given Mt. 5:19....you better pick ALL the commands!  Unless you want to be least (Mt.5:19) or worse (Mt.5:20) or worse (Mt.7:21-23) or worse (Mt.13:41-42).

 

"your Eternal Destiny is at stake."

True....and Jesus said Torah-obedience is sufficient for ETERNAL LIFE (Lk.10:25-28).

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:15 PM, Tampered With said:

Where we differ and "my concern" is not in Salvation but that Jesus Commandments and Bible Scripture go far further than just God's plan for Salvation for mankind. In my estimation too many Christians seem to "stop" at salvation as supremely important as that is and not to try to understand God's whole Plan as laid out in Holy Scripture through the coming of the New Earth, New Heaven as well as the descent of New Jerusalem. They seem to get stuck so to speak and I am not sure why. We are not meant to be born again babes in Christ and stay that way but to desire the meat of growth into the Kingdom of God of which there is more after Salvation. Each time I bring up such teachings and Bible verses about more; I get Salvation, Salvation, Salvation shouted back as if that is all there is. 

True!  There is also SANCTIFICATION BY TRUTH (Jn.17:17)...and TORAH is truth (Ps.119:142).

So we are sanctified in growing faithful obedience to Torah!

blessings....

 

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:49 PM, Wayne222 said:

If we are justified by the blood jesus gave fir sin. We are safe. 

True!  But JUSTIFICATION is also by FAITH (Rom.5:1) and by TORAH (Rom.2:13) ALL together.....

So let's not disregard the Torah!

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:53 PM, Coliseum said:

Oh, the law! Imagine you and your friend go mountain climbing. There is a law at work---something unbreakable, something that under the same conditions always is maintained---in this case, the Law of Gravity. No matter how fast you climb the mountain, no matter how far you are ahead of your partner, no matter when you started climbing it---that same Law was always at work, exerting its force upon both of you. You cannot change it. Take off all the weight you carry to lighten the load, and the Law is still right there with you. You cannot overcome it. The Law of Gravity does not care whether you understand it or believe it; it has you always under its thumb.

Sin too is a law. It cannot be overcome by us. Its wage is death. A wage is something you earn, and we have been the greatest employee working for the law of sin. A man not born again cannot escape the death-grip of the Law; it is binding and has you bound---tied up. Paul understood it, but not at first. He tried and tried and tried to overcome sin by an act of his will; and for awhile, he succeeded, but then, over and over again, he fell back into sin. Like yearly resolutions, the law of sin was too powerful. Romans 7 is all about Paul trying and trying and failing. He realized, like the Law of Gravity, sin too is a law---the Law of sin---the unbreakable law of the flesh. Paul discovered that no amount of self-will could overcome this law of sin. If you are trapped in Romans 7, trying to overcome your sin by the will, you will never arrive at Romans 8, which says, "There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death." We see that the Spirit of life is also a law---unbreakable in Christ, and it frees us from the law of sin. Paul saw it; his eyes were at last opened when he could only sigh and say, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?" He realized that it was impossible for him to prevail over sin by his will.

Will we sigh too, or hang on with our dead "life" to the law of sin?

"You cannot overcome it."

God says we MUST overcome it (Ge.4:7), so I think we CAN overcome it.

And keep reading!  Rom.7:25 Paul STILL serves Torah .

Rom. 8:7,13 Paul STILL says that Torah-disobedience is BAD.

1Cor.15:34 Paul says STOP SINNING (meaning OBEY TORAH, given Rom.3:20;7:7).

After all, Jesus expects us to obey and LIVE (Mt.4:4).

blessings...

 

 

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

18 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

     Put on the new man. Let's follow christ and pick up our cross. Jesus carry his cross to the death. Let us live for him.

Yes....we are to obey the Laws as best we can....for our own good in our Earthly lifetimes....they do not save though....if they did Jesus went to the Cross for nothing...

[Wayne222]

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

Yes....we are to obey the Laws as best we can....for our own good in our Earthly lifetimes....they do not save though....if they did Jesus went to the Cross for nothing...

What laws ? The ten c commandments ? The law is the old covenant brother. We live by faith now. The just shall live by faith.