Satan and Job

[missmuffet]

58 minutes ago, Mal'ak said:

 

Half right, half wrong: satan corrupted a 1/3 of the angels in the first Earth age before Adam and Eve.  All the demons are just angels that rebelled against God, as God did not create demons or anything evil.  They became evil, because of their will free choice, and their sin caused them to fall from grace and become demons.  But yes you are right that satan does go around where he wants right now, and will be kicked out of Heaven in Revelations.

 

 

Sheol is a prison, too much catholic traditions of man without any Biblical backing here from the book inferno, there are no demons or satan in Hell.  Just the non-believers and wicked, which are waiting for Jesus' return.  

 

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

If you read Luke 10, it is talking about judgement come to evil.  the devil was not cast out of Heaven, that does not happen until the tribulation.  The demons and satan will fight Michael and his Angels to kick them out of Heaven, but this is at he end of this age.

 

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

The reason satan is called the accuser, is because he is in Heaven at the Throne of God all the time pointing out our sins.  

I just think people are confused about what "Heaven" is, it is a spiritual realm, Heaven is on Earth and in the city where the throne of God is.  You can be sitting at your computer, and on your left is standing an Angel in the Heavenly/Spiritual realm.  You can not see him, because he is in a different realm of existence then you, but he is on Earth standing beside you but also in Heaven.

I do not support your theology.

God created all the the angels and that includes Satan and 1/3 of the demons who were cast out with Satan.

Sheol is another name for Hades which is where all the unbelievers souls go when they die. They are awaiting the Great White throne judgment.

There are three heavens. The third heaven is where God the Father and Jesus Christ dwells. The second heaven is the universe or outer space. The first heaven is our atmosphere or where we live. Satan and the demons are allowed to move in this space. There is a limited assess that Satan has to the third heaven which is described in the previous post explaining Satan's assess to heaven at this time.

[Justin Adams]

Dr. Michael Heiser:

You might think the standard for a prophet was whether their words came to pass exactly as uttered (Deut 18:15–22). But that’s actually a bi-product of the real litmus test, which we read about in Jeremiah:

For who among them has stood in the council (sôd, סוד) of the Lord to see and to hear his word, or who has paid attention to his word and listened? [The LORD says] … “If they had stood in my council (sôd, סוד), then they would have proclaimed my words to my people” (Jer 23:18, 22 ESV).

What does it mean to “stand in the council”? Jeremiah elaborates: “to see and to hear his word … to pay attention to his word and listen.” The one essential test of a prophet—that preceded their ability to deliver a divine message—was that the prophet had to see and hear God in His council.

In the Bible, God and His heavenly host were thought to live and conduct business in the divine throne room. This assembly, with God as its CEO, is called “a divine council” (Psa 82:1; 89:5–7).1 God chose prophets and commissioned them directly for ministry. When a prophet “stood in the council,” they had a direct encounter with God in His throne room. This motif of “standing in the council” is a repeated pattern in the Bible.

[Mal'ak]

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

Nowhere does the scripture say that 1/3 of the heavenly ones were with hasatan at the beginning. If you want to use Daniel or Revelation and you WANT to assume stars are angels, then it did not happen in the beginning but sometime during Messiah's birth. (if at all). Sheol is the place that rephaim are sent and others of that ilk. Some obviously have freedom to walk the earth seeking a host. But sheol is still their 'dwelling place'.

If you read Psalm 82 and Deut 32, you will see that sentence has been passed on the elohim that are sons of God. "They will die like men".

Sheol comprises elohim of past terrible creatures and also human elohim. They are ALL disembodied spirits. Sheol is the place of death and it is hasatan's domain until it it is destroyed. hasatan was cast down to erets.
erets: earth, land, Original Word: אֶרֶץ

Heavenly beings can become men as well, see many Tankh accounts of 'angels' and even see one called The Angel of the Lord, or one like unto the son of man (Yeshua). The term angel is only a description of function. Messenger or even representative. The ontology of 'angel' is not real. Their function is 'messenger'.

Seems that some get their theology from Milton's Paradise Lost. It is quite wrong on many scriptural counts.

See Psalm 82 and Deut 32 to begin with and learn about The Divine Council of God.

 

Not want, how can balls of fire in space "turn evil" or follow satan?  The Bible is filled with imagery and parables, but if you think a third of the balls of fire in space are evil because they chose to follow satan to rebel against God, then I guess that is your choice to believe...maybe we should start preaching to rocks, so satan does not turn half of the mountains on earth evil too....nonsense.

 

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

If you read the Bible you will know both satan and Jesus are referred too as the Son of the Morning star, and in Job God is talking about the foundation of the world when Jesus and satan sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.  This was not in this Earth Age, Jesus was in Heaven before he came down to Earth, he was part of the first Earth age before Adam when the great rebellion took place.  When did satan rebel? When did the demons rebel? Where did the demons come from?  Since satan was already evil in Genesis when he tempted Adam and Eve.  When did the Dinosaurs exist?  The reason why science has been making a fool out of Christians for years, is because we have million year old bones of animals, but Christians still say the earth is 5,000 years old because they think Genesis is day 1...its not, it is the second earth age. 

But maybe so your narrative and doctrines of man can be right, you will say God just created million year old bones that never existed just for fun to trick people up, just as balls of fire and gas in space turn evil.

 

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

"was" Strong's H1961: hâyâh, haw-yaw; a primitive root (compare H1933); come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee.

 

If you start off at Genesis 1:1 + 1:2, in the Hebrew hâyâh means "to become", so 1:1 God created Heaven and Earth, then in 1:2 "And the earth [became] without form". Bettween these two verses is the entire first Earth age, dinosaurs, satan's rebellion, etc.

 

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

God commanded humans to "replenish", which is a term used when something was full, you take it always, and then you refill it or replenish it again.

 

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

Jesus would not preach to the demons, the spirits in hell or prison are the souls of the dead that did not living righteously. But when Jesus died, the three days he went in the spirit to hell and preached to the souls there, bringing some out of hell to enter paradise.  David wrote about this, "you will not leave my soul in hell", but most likely he was in Abraham's bossom which was apart of hell.

 

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

While the angels in Genesis that married and had kids with human woman, they were chained up in the "bottomless pit", kept there until the tribulation when they are freed to deceive the world.  The prison or hell, is a completely different place, then the bottomless pit where the Angels that took part in the second rebellion during this earth age are kept.

[Mal'ak]

9 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I do not support your theology.

God created all the the angels and that includes Satan and 1/3 of the demons who were cast out with Satan.

Sheol is another name for Hades which is where all the unbelievers souls go when they die. They are awaiting the Great White throne judgment.

There are three heavens. The third heaven is where God the Father and Jesus Christ dwells. The second heaven is the universe or outer space. The first heaven is our atmosphere or where we live. Satan and the demons are allowed to move in this space. There is a limited assess that Satan has to the third heaven which is described in the previous post explaining Satan's assess to heaven at this time.

 

You are trying to use earth wisdom of space and atmosphere to explain "heaven", those terms were not used by the Bible or God.  There are three heavens, but they are three spiritual areas. When a demon or satan wonders earth, we can not see them, do they have a cloaking spell?  No they are in a spiritual realm, because they are spiritual creatures.

[Jostler]

On 11/22/2019 at 6:17 AM, Melinda12 said:

Well it is clear he was thrown out from heaven so what was he doing approaching God along with the angels for this meeting? Just curious. 

One thing we might be overlooking is the fact there are three "heavens" spoken  of in the  Word.  It takes some work with a concordance to  find all the places where the Bible mentions "heaven, heavens" and related words, but even without that we can know by implication there are AT LEAST three "heavens"

Paul's story of his vision gives us that much:

Quote

2Co 12:2

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven.

If there is a "third", then we can logically presuppose there are at least two others...a first and a second.  The word "third" has no meaning without assuming a first and a second.

Carefully examining other Scriptures where heaven(s) are mentioned will give a good bit of insight into the characteristics of each.  Without drawing up a whole study, we can  discern a few things about the "heavens" in general:

 

In every case I could find, no exceptions, the  Bible always refers to the  heavens as "above" the earth,  and the earth "below" the heavens.  One example of too many to count:

Quote

Jos 2:11

When we heard the news we lost our courage and no one could even breathe for fear of you. For the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on earth below!

From our perspective here on earth, the "heavens" are above us.

 

 

Some heavens are "higher" than others.....and according to  this verse the "sky" is not the "highest" heaven:

Quote

1Ki 8:27

"God does not really live on the earth! Look, if the sky and the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this temple I have built!

so we can safely assume the sky, and the highest heaven are separate and  distinct...but  as you  will see the "sky" is also  a referred to as a heaven, it's just not the "highest" of all the  heavens.

 

 

The heavens are home to..the assigned "estate", for multitudes of intelligent, created beings capable of worshiping:

Quote

Neh 9:6

You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, along with all their multitude of stars, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You impart life to them all, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

 

 

The stars are said to exist in a "heaven"

Quote

Exo 32:13

Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel your servants, to whom you swore by yourself and told them, 'I will multiply your descendants like the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken about I will give to your descendants, and they will inherit it forever.'"

 

 

Birds fly in a heaven

Quote

Gen 1:20

¶

Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”

 

Jer 16:4

“They shall die gruesome deaths; they shall not be lamented nor shall they be buried, but they shall be like refuse on the face of the earth. They shall be consumed by the sword and by famine, and their corpses shall be meat for the birds of heaven and for the beasts of the earth.”

 

This is already longer than i meant it to be, but if the study interests you it's easy  to grab a concordance and continue yourself.

 

 

If the above is correct, then we can make some reliable assumptions based on what the Scriptures  actually reveal (i see lots of guessing in this thread already )  and based on those my best understanding is that  the  "first" heaven includes pretty much everything in this natural, three dimensional realm that  exists 'above' the earth....including the atmosphere where "birds fly" all the way out to encompass all the stars.  Basically the whole cosmos, with the  exception of what is on the earth, and under the  earth.

The second heaven is most  likely what we call the  "spirit realm" where spirit beings, both loyal to God and in rebellion to  Him dwell.  This is currently a realm of combat between those two opposing forces/armies.  This is not the "highest" heaven.  Satan and the other principalities, powers and rulers of the  darkness of this  world appear to still have access to this heaven.  And to the  first heaven.  Satan is described as the  prince of the power of the air.

The third heaven which Paul was 'caught up" into appears to be God's throne and might  be the "highest" of all the heavens.

 

I'm not willing to  be  dogmatic here because the Bible does not explicitly state some  of the  thinking points I'm going to propose next.  What I shared  up to this point has some pretty  solid Scriptural backing and specific verses that back it up (though the above is woefully incomplete).

The  following is a arguable, but represents my best understanding so far and is my 'working thesis' at the moment....but held very loosely recognizing further understanding might unravel some  of it.

 

Assuming the above is properly understood it is entirely possible that when satan rebelled he was completely excluded from the third heaven, God's realm and where His throne now is. 

Given that he is still active in the spirit realm (if by spirit realm we mean  the heaven where satan is), it seems likely he was kicked  out of the third heaven and limited  to  the realms "below"  it.  The second heaven, the  first heaven, the earth, and "under the earth" which we know as the grave, Sheol, Hades.....etc. 

That leaves the possibility  that when Father assembles the  "Divine Council" He may presence Himself in the second heaven enabling satan to  also come among the  "sons of God" (bene eloyhim) and stand before the Council to accuse us...without violating the purity  of God's abode.   Someone above implied  (or stated) he cannot accuse us any longer after the  cross, but I think this  calls that assumption into question:

 

Quote

Rev 12:10

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, "The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down.

John wrote Revelation long after the Cross and his use of "accuses" ...present tense, strongly implies satan was still accusing Christians before God's Court at the time he wrote it.  And there are a number of other reasons to believe he will continue to until that "war in heaven" finally results in satan and his cohorts being kicked out of the second heaven as well, preventing future  accusations once and  for all.  Apparently his exclusion from the  second heaven is what finally gets it through  his head he's losing the game,  and realizes he  doesn't have much time  left.  From that point his goal seems to be to cause as  much death  and destruction as he can while he still has a little time left.

This  is already much longer than most  will even read, so as much as i enjoy  the  topic i'll curtail it here   It's an interesting  line of inquiry  and it's not hard to  pick the  study  up  from here if it piques anyone's interest.  I hope it does because it  might  challenge some of  the theology some appear dead set on defending ...without  much real Biblical support

But, that's one plausible explanation for seeing satan in "heaven" accusing Job in that  story.  If the Divine Council is assembled in the second heaven, not the third, there's no real conflict i can see with other  Scriptures

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Jostler

[Guest]

All the answers are very interesting and informative thanks. 

I am though, disturbed about angels being rebellious against God. So many of them too. I imagined heaven to be perfect place, angels to be perfect beings. I do hope it does not turn out to be like here! Then there really would be no hope. 

So not only Lucifer rebelled but loads of other angels went with him. It does show God gives free will to all. That is a very precious gift but it necessarily carries risk. 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

11 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

All the answers are very interesting and informative thanks. 

I am though, disturbed about angels being rebellious against God. So many of them too. I imagined heaven to be perfect place, angels to be perfect beings. I do hope it does not turn out to be like here! Then there really would be no hope. 

So not only Lucifer rebelled but loads of other angels went with him. It does show God gives free will to all. That is a very precious gift but it necessarily carries risk. 

 

 

Yes. A risky propositions. But God is like that. Nothing can compare to His personality and even though we are His Imagers, we are NOT Him and fall short. Far short. We are not meant to do anything but BELIEVE. But we carry on with our own agendas and miss the point. God is sovereign, not us. So we repeat the tower of babel idea again and again, trusting that 'the deity' will show up to see how great we are.

God will never do our bidding - so foolish to expect that, but it is the pride of man at work egged on by powers and principalities.. so silly!!

The various 'heavens' mentioned are God's created places. If we read the Tanakh carefully, we can see that Yahweh is wherever and whenever He so chooses - yes even with us Humans, He can appear as the Lord Yeshua, and ALSO be there as Yahweh at the same time. (see the dialog in the Gideon account). We sometimes forget the Omnipresence of the Father, the Ancient of Days, so He can just talk with whomever and wherever He wants. Just because dialog seems to be the Throne Courtroom, it does not follow exactly that the actual place that conversation takes place is there.

When there are Courtroom conversations we are told. Like in Daniel and Revelation, they appear to be Indictment gatherings - Just like Psalm 82. God Himself presides over the courts now with Yeshua at His right hand as His ELEVATED and co-equal executive. "Everything has bee put under His feet". The early believers saw this and proceeded to take a thirteen-person evangelical team into the world in force and power.

Just like in Solomon's day, we have been warned that being fat-and-sassy will most likely lead to our detriment. Take a look around you today and see that not only has the believing SALT lost its flavor, but is not evident very much at all.

[Justin Adams]

12 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

I am though, disturbed about angels being rebellious against God. So many of them too. I imagined heaven to be perfect place, angels to be perfect beings. I do hope it does not turn out to be like here! Then there really would be no hope.

This is a good thought. But fortunately, God is not phased one little bit. He designed the Plan and He will carry it out.

The heavens that we can only imagine have not been taught by our Augustinian Seminaries. The wisdom of man is sometimes limited to 'The City of God' or 'Paradise Lost'. It misses so much.

Our 'reformed' canon is designed to keep us in check. We are told it is sinful to read stuff that Yeshua and the apostles read - thus we are hamstrung and forced into some seminarian mold that ignores much that God set for us to learn from. The gate-keepers of our faith have done a very poor job - look around you and observe this for yourself.

Such generally poor and uninformed theology has basically left us a two-dimensional parody of the reality of the unseen real. Thus we think we are alone left to fight on our own. This is not true, but ha-satan and the powers love this approach since it ensures we will not obstruct evil. That and the silly pre-trib idea that we will be long gone is such a selfish approach to salvation. Darby and many others preach that we will be 'taken' before the really bad stuff happens - then we see really bad stuff happening and all that does is erode our faith (as it is designed to do). It is a battle of words, concepts and pretty sounding lies. If you can hi-jack the language, you have won to some extent. 

To get out of this trap requires a little fortitude to resist, yet it is possible once understood to ignore all this babble. Humans love second-hand thoughts. It is easier and less mental strain to adopt something you have not examined closely. So our 'beliefs' are often very shallow and have no foundation.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Justin Adams

[missmuffet]

20 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

All the answers are very interesting and informative thanks. 

I am though, disturbed about angels being rebellious against God. So many of them too. I imagined heaven to be perfect place, angels to be perfect beings. I do hope it does not turn out to be like here! Then there really would be no hope. 

So not only Lucifer rebelled but loads of other angels went with him. It does show God gives free will to all. That is a very precious gift but it necessarily carries risk. 

 

 

It is rather sad isn't it? All because of pride. 

[Guest]

I just thought angels were perfect. I am a bit troubled that angels rebelled. That Lucifer was apparently very beautiful but became too proud and then became the exact opposite of what is beauty and goodness. Horror and evil unimaginable. So even angels all have their own minds, serving God because they want to.

To have our own mind is the greatest gift from God surely. He does not want mindless obedience. So he risks our rejection. Just like you and i would not ever really want servile automatic love because it is not real love and would always be unsatisfactory. Real love is priceless because it is freely given. 

Does that make sense? Or am i rambling again to myself!

Edited November 24, 2019 by Melinda12