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Proverbs 31

Are there any Pre-Wrath Believers here?

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12 hours ago, The Light said:

You are mistaken.  You did not prove it by scriptures. You have incorrectly proven it to yourself.

I am not mistaken, absolutely, the Woman is really the Church, and not the esoteric/ spiritist/kabbalistic Israel. I proved yes by Scriptures, verse by verse, the Woman is the body of Christ, and who proves the correct interpretation of Scriptures is the Holy Spirit, though you desagree of Him.  How can the Woman be the esoteric / spiritualist / kabbalistic present-day Israel who is full of idolatries and witcheries and highly prepared to receive, and acclaim, and applaud the false and RUTHLESS messiah, AN IMPOSTER, the Red Dragon, even he the MAN of sin, son of perdition, a former cherub, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders? 

Oh no, the Woman is not Israel, absolutely, actually the present-day Israel will be ruled by the false messiah - the Red Dragon - and he and his followers will persecute the Woman, the  Church of the Lord,  trying to destroy the body of Christ by the complete. Rev.12   It is evident that the LORD has already prepared a place for His Church to be free from of the ruthless and satanic Abomination of Desolation and head of Antichrist's Empire, enthroned in Jerusalem - Israel - as God, to rule and guide the nation by the last 1,290 days. Daniel 12:v.11

12 hours ago, The Light said:

 Another poster, Old Coot gave the perfect BIBLICAL explanation : 

His explanation would be perfect if it was true, but is not, it is false.
 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

The description of the woman mirrors the Genesis 37:9-11. And that is clearly Jacob/Israel... the twelve literal tribes and not some "spiritualized" idea of the Church being that entity.

Genesis 37:9-11has nothing to do with Revelation 12:v.1, you are believing in false interpretation of Scripture. Joseph did see in his dream:  v.9 - “Here, I had another dream, and there were the sun, the moon and ELEVEN stars PROSTRATING themselves before me. 10 He told his father too, as well as his ELEVEN brothers (eleven stars), but his father rebuked him: “What is this dream you have had? Do you really expect me, your mother and your brothers to come and prostrate ourselves before you on the ground?”


Again: Genesis 37:9-11 has nothing to do with Revelation 12:v.1-2&5&7, the fulfiment of Joseph's dream has to do with Genesis 42:v.6-10:
6 Yosef was governor over the land; it was he who sold to all the people of the land. Now when Yosef’s brothers came and PROSTRATED themselves before him ON THE GROUND 7 Yosef saw his brothers and recognized them; but he acted toward them as if he were a stranger and spoke harshly with them. He asked them, “Where are you from?” They answered, “From the land of Kena‘an to buy food.” 8 So Yosef recognized his brothers, but they didn’t recognize him. 9 Remembering THE DREAMS HE HAD HAD about them, Yosef said to them, “You are spies! You’ve come to spot our country’s weaknesses!” 10 “No, MY LORD,” they replied, “your servants have come to buy food. 


Revelation 12:v.1 is about a Woman CLOTHED with the sun, and the moon UNDER the feet of the Woman,  and upon her head a crown of TWELVE stars  (and not ELEVEN stars of Joseph's dream), which are the TWELVE apostles of the LORD,  and they by the Word of the LORD Jesus are already enthroned to Judge the twelve tribes of Israel and not only the ELEVEN stars of Joseph's dream, do you understand?  

The interpretation of old coot is wrong totally. Joseph was born to be a prototype of JESUS, a perfect paragon of Him. Joseph had the Spirit of Christ, he was sold by 20 coins by his own brothers. In addition to this grave sin, Josephs' brothers committed more as they deceived their own father by saying that a beast had torn Joseph apart, and they presented false proof to conceal the wrongdoing they had done, so they killed a kid of a goat and they dyed Joseph's tunic with the blood.
For to interpret correctly when was filfiled Joseph's dream as his own interpretation (Genesis 42:v.9), it is possible only for them that have the same spirit of him, for he had the Spirit of Christ. By the way, who doesn’t have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn’t belong to Him. 
 

12 hours ago, The Light said:

And that is clearly Jacob/Israel... the twelve literal tribes and not some "spiritualized" idea of the Church being that entity.

Who interprets Scriptures only by the letter is a killer, a killer of souls, and a sower of tares, for the own Scriptures states that the letter kills, the Spirit gives life. Now see,  what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God, for the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. 

 

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

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On 11/27/2019 at 3:04 PM, Last Daze said:

It all depends on your perspective on the source of the trib and object of the trib.  The 3.5 years is unlike anything since there was a nation.  It affects believers and unbelievers unlike although in different ways.  So, yes, terminology and definitions are important.  My usage of the terms was accurate.

No passage of the Bible equates the trib to the 3.5 years or the 7 years. None. Pure presumption. NO passage of the NT speaks of a seven year period at all. 

On 11/27/2019 at 4:22 PM, iamlamad said:

What prewrath posttrib theory MISSES: 

John puts the days of GT after the warning not to take the mark in chapter 14, proven by the beheaded beginning to show up in heaven in chapter 15. 

Reply: False. John does not mention the trib after chapter 7, whereas the events of chapter 14 take place much later, after the 144,000 are taken up before the heavenly throne following the 3-1/2 years of the judgement of earthly Israel.

It is proven yet again when one understands that chapters 4 & 5 set the timing of the first seals to 32 AD when Jesus ascended. 

Reply: False again, for numerous reasons, not the least of which is that the Crucifixion Passover could not have taken place in 32 AD simply on calendrical grounds.

It is proven yet again when one understands that the 5th seal is still church age and for the martyrs of the church age.

Reply: True; the fifth seal marks the end of the tribulation of the Church, followed by its rapture at the 6th seal.

Thank God, you have the rapture at the 6th seal right.

Reply: Thank God, you have the rapture at the 6th seal right.

 

On 11/27/2019 at 4:24 PM, iamlamad said:

Agreed, classic prewrath thought as taught by Rosenthal and Van Kampen (the originators) is "post trib" because their errors caused them to place the days of GT in the first 5 seals, when John places those days after chapter 14.

They are the originators of "classic pre-wrath," but not the originators of pre-wrath's fundamentals. They were correct in placing the trib in the days of the first 5 seals, but in error when they tried to force the 3.5 and 7 years into the trib, which periods have nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with Israel.

On 11/27/2019 at 5:11 PM, dhchristian said:

No, they are vastly different. The Post tribulation rapture theory places the rapture at the end of the final week. Pre Wrath does not do this. We see the rapture at about the midpoint of the final week. This is a rude statement and shows a lack of understanding of the one's you are discussing this with, and the various positions involved.  

See the above statement.

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Just now, WilliamL said:

They are the originators of "classic pre-wrath," but not the originators of pre-wrath's fundamentals. They were correct in placing the trib in the days of the first 5 seals, but in error when they tried to force the 3.5 and 7 years into the trib, which periods have nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with Israel.

On 11/27/2019 at 7:11 PM, dhchristian said:

No, they are vastly different. The Post tribulation rapture theory places the rapture at the end of the final week. Pre Wrath does not do this. We see the rapture at about the midpoint of the final week. This is a rude statement and shows a lack of understanding of the one's you are discussing this with, and the various positions involved.  

See the above statement.

Why address the Book of revelation to the church then, if we have no part in it? Why is Israel barely mentioned therein? (Do a search on Israel, temple etc. and you will find this is true, Only the 144k are mentioned as being Israel directly, and the earthly temple in chapter 11) Who are the saints? (They are around till chapter 14 on the earth, and called to endure, Endurance of the saints is a New Testament church Doctrine).

If You want to make the claims you do, you have to address these contradictions to your theory. 

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3 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Why address the Book of revelation to the church then, if we have no part in it? Why is Israel barely mentioned therein? (Do a search on Israel, temple etc. and you will find this is true, Only the 144k are mentioned as being Israel directly, and the earthly temple in chapter 11) Who are the saints? (They are around till chapter 14 on the earth, and called to endure, Endurance of the saints is a New Testament church Doctrine).

"No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22.

There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

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8 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

No passage of the Bible equates the trib to the 3.5 years or the 7 years. None. Pure presumption. NO passage of the NT speaks of a seven year period at all. 

You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  Both Daniel and Jesus refer to the same point in time in these passages:

  • For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
  • And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

There can't be two different times of tribulation that are the worst ever.  These have to be referring to the same period in time.  Daniel tells us how long it lasts.

  • I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.  Daniel 12:7

That is the same time duration that is given in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7 in describing the war against the saints.

Also during this time, the plagues will be affecting those utilize the mark and worship the image.  That's what makes it the worst since the beginning of the world, worse than the flood.  Everyone around the world will be affected during the time frame that Daniel gave albeit in different ways.  Satan et.al. will be waging war against the saints and the plagues will bring judgment on those who align themselves with him.

So, it depends whose side you're on as to how the 3.5 year tribulation of tribulation will affect you.  The great tribulation against the saints (5th seal) is a small subset of the 3.5 years that takes place at its beginning.  The war against the saints lasts the full 3.5 years with the greatest intensity being at the beginning.

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3 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

You may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.  Both Daniel and Jesus refer to the same point in time in these passages:

  • For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.  Matthew 24:21
  • And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time.  Daniel 12:1b

There can't be two different times of tribulation that are the worst ever.  These have to be referring to the same period in time.  Daniel tells us how long it lasts.

  • I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.  Daniel 12:7

That is the same time duration that is given in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7 in describing the war against the saints.

Yes, Matthew 24:21 = Daniel 12:1. I've always said that. Speaking specifically of the time of trouble such as never was. NOT about the judgment of Daniel's people, however. Because the trib will be upon the whole world, and has nothing to do with the specific 3.5 years judgment of Daniel's people.

Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ.

The reason why the Great Trib will be so fearful is that it will be the total collapse of civilization as we know it, resulting in maga-death from starvation, internecine conflict, and plague. But the Beast kingdom will reestablish order of a sort in the world after the trib, so that people can buy and sell again, and life will go on on a debased level.

 

  • This is Worthy 1

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52 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Daniel 7:25 and Rev. 13 has to do with "the power of the holy people [being] completely shattered" (Dan. 12:7; 7:21, 25). Those are Daniel's people, not Christ's people: the OT prophets never prophesied about Christ's Church, which was a "mystery" concealed from them until the coming of Christ.

I see saints as saints regardless of which covenant they fall under.  Faith is the common denominator.  The Lamb's wife includes OT saints as well as NT saints according to Revelation 21:9-14.

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18 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I see saints as saints regardless of which covenant they fall under.  Faith is the common denominator.  The Lamb's wife includes OT saints as well as NT saints according to Revelation 21:9-14.

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.

The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times.

But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib.

Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.

 

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2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Let's get to basics: at the return of Christ, there will be those of Israel who believe in Him and "were ready" (Matt. 25:10) to go with Him, and there will be those of Israel who did not believe in Him until He convinced them by His appearance.

The latter will not go up in the Rapture, but will become believing saints on earth during the Wrath. These, or the elect of these, are the 144,000. They are or include the Israelites of Zech. 12:10 who "will look unto Me whom they pierced, and mourn over Him..." because they now realize their (2000-year) blindness. They are the earthly saints of the "time of Jacob's trouble," who have to deal with the Little Horn on earth for 3-1/2 times.

But the saints of the Church will be in heaven by then. Pre-wrath, but post-trib.

Saints above and saints below. God is never without a witness upon earth.

 

We'll see how it all works out.

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4 hours ago, WilliamL said:
4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Why address the Book of revelation to the church then, if we have no part in it? Why is Israel barely mentioned therein? (Do a search on Israel, temple etc. and you will find this is true, Only the 144k are mentioned as being Israel directly, and the earthly temple in chapter 11) Who are the saints? (They are around till chapter 14 on the earth, and called to endure, Endurance of the saints is a New Testament church Doctrine).

"No part in it"? Hardly. The Church is there through chapter 7, and in chapter 12, and in chapters 19-22.

There is no "earthly temple" in chapter 11 or any other chapter. Only the heavenly naos/sanctuary is mentioned in Revelation. It is you that would have to prove otherwise. Read my blog post on Rev. 11, found here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1117-the-temple-sanctuary-and-court-of-revelation-11/

Regarding saints, there are saints of the Church, and there are saints of Israel. One has to distinguish between them. The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

No where in the Old testament are the saints called to endure. Yet there the saints are, on earth all the way to chapter 14. Here is the List of them. (Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4, 11:18, 13:7-10, 14:12.)

The saints are also mentioned in Rev. 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 18:24, 19:8, 20:9, But none of these mention endurance, and are primarily looking back at the blood of the saints in relation to judgment. So clearly there is a dividing line there. Now If Israel are the saints in revelation, then their restoration would take place at the beginning of the final week, But every prophecy in the Old testament tells us they will drink of the cup of the Wrath of God until Drunk, before the LORD spares them. Meaning that their restoration and sainthood will not happen until some time in the middle to end of the week. So these saints that are there on earth till chapter 14 are from the church. They are not the 144k because they are distinct from the saints as chapter 14 indicates, and the 144k are the remnant of Israel. The restoration of Israel cannot begin UNTIL the False messiah is destroyed, up until that point many Jewish people will be fooled by him and signs and wonders done to promote him as the messiah.

The earthly temple is mentioned one time in Revelation 11:1-2, and it is measured (By John) but not the outer court which is trampled by the gentiles for forty 2 months. Whether this is a temple or a tabernacle is TBD as some passages in the OT speak of the Tabernacle of David being raised up Not the temple of Solomon, so I will concede that much, But one thing I know is this is an earthly temple or tabernacle of some sort, and not the heavenly one mentioned in the seventh Trumpet at the end of chapter 11.

The Church is judged first during the Seals (as in, you are or you ain't when the Lord comes), Israel is judged second during the trumpets, the nations are judged last during the bowls.

I Agree with the last statement in the above sentence. I do not see the trumpets as judgment on Israel, so please explain where you get this? The Church has dealt with all of the first 5 seals throughout their history, The sixth and the seventh happen at around the mid-trib period of the final week. Why? Because the fulness of the gentiles must come in (Romans 11:25) When that happens, the restoration of Israel can begin, and that cannot happen until the number is fulfilled that must be fulfilled during the fifth seal.

Here is how I see it. The church is in Labor pains already, and has been throughout church history. John equates himself with this tribulation, in Rev. 1:9. The Great tribulation is the first half of the final week, and this is the actual birth process. When the child is Born, there is Joy, which is the Sixth seal. This matches the fall feasts exactly. Elul1 begins 40 days of mourning, at Rosh Hashanah the 10 days of great mourning (10 days of Awe) begins. At Yom Kippur there is the Birth, as the sins are atoned for and a new creation officially begins. This then is followed by a season of Joy, the feast of Tabernacles, which is also known as the "Wedding feast". Notice, there are 3 and half days between the end of Yom Kippur, and the beginning of (Erev) Sukkot. The fall feasts are like the Calendar of the end times. The Church is giving birth... Birth to whom? The Glorified sons of God.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (Romans 8:19)

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Romans 8:22-25)

 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. ( 1 cor. 15:51-52)

 

 

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