KJVOnly Posted December 23, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2019 16 hours ago, BibleGuy said: "Abrahamic Torah’s. Cmon. ....." Brilliant logic there, buddy! I give you Ge. 26:5 as PROOF that Abraham obeyed TORAHS (plural, in Ge.26:5). And your counter-response is......."cmon"...... Try again! Give me a REASON. Not just "cmon"....that doesn't cut it. And besides, Moses told us that Mosaic Torah is NOT identical to previous Torah (Dt.5:3). So there's more proof that ABRAHAMIC TORAH is not identical to MOSAIC TORAH. "Should these Mosaic mercy killings you recommend be painful?" You're just trolling again..... Don't be silly. blessings... Leviticus 20:14 King James Version (KJV) 14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you. Kill em all, let God sort em out? That is what you preach in Hebrew Roots circles? Yikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 23, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2019 18 hours ago, BibleGuy said: "The entire O.T. is Law per Paul and Jesus." I doubt you have any proof that Paul or Jesus considers Ecclesiastes or the Song of Songs as "law". "Deal with it and keep all of it." Of course! 2Ti.3:16 "Don't be a piecemeal Law keeper." I never was! Obey it ALL (2Ti.3:16) to the extent possible in this present diaspora of course (Jas.1:1). "Get with it." Amen! You too, brother! Mt. 5:19 "Hey, what tribe you from....you have not mentioned it yet?" Why assume tribal identity is already revealed to all Israelites? I see no good reason for that assumption.... Besides, we have evidence that you may CHOOSE. blessings... Which tribe do you Tithe to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 23, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2019 16 hours ago, BibleGuy said: "you have an O.T. Spirit mixed with the New Covenant." That's because the PROPHECY of the New Covenant is given in the O.T. (Jer.31:33)! And the SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10 CITES Jer.31:33). "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" " μετατίθημι " means TO GO OR PASS OVER, in Heb. 7:12. Jesus PASSES OVER the Levitical Priesthood because the Levitical priesthood is ended? NOPE! Jesus PASSES OVER the Levitical Priesthood because He is NOT a Levite? Yep! Jesus is a MELCHIZEDEK Priest, NOT a Levitical Priest. He is a Judahite (Heb.7:14). That's WHY Jesus passes over (not changes!) the Levitical Priesthood so as to achieve His Melchizedek Priesthood purposes. After all, that SAME AUTHOR of Hebrews tells us that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (citing Jer.31:33 at Heb.8:10 and 10:16). Again, that SAME AUTHOR tells us that the shadow-function of Torah CONTINUES (PRESENT tense in Heb. 10:1). Again, Moses promises that 100% of ALL Torah (thus including Levitical sacrifices!) will be obeyed in the future (Dt. 30:1-8). Again, Jesus comes to RESTORE those very Levitical sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4), so they are OBVIOUSLY not changed. They are simply PASSED OVER by Jesus so that Jesus can transfer attention upon Melchizedek Priesthood rules which are pertinent to Him for His redemptive purposes. "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof." Of COURSE the Levitical Commandments are put away for the purpose of the ONCE-FOR-ALL sacrifice (Heb. 7:27)..... That doesn't prove the Levitical Commandments are put away for EVERY purpose. After all, that SAME AUTHOR of Hebrews tells us that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (citing Jer.31:33 at Heb.8:10 and 10:16). Again, that SAME AUTHOR tells us that the shadow-function of Torah CONTINUES (PRESENT tense in Heb. 10:1). Again, Moses promises that 100% of ALL Torah (thus including Levitical sacrifices!) will be obeyed in the future (Dt. 30:1-8). Again, Jesus comes to RESTORE those very Levitical sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4), so they are OBVIOUSLY not put away for EVERY purpose. " For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." Of COURSE the Levitical sacrifices do not take away sins! That's the POINT! They merely COVERED/ATONED for sins.....whereas the sacrifice of Jesus' body fully takes our sins away. That doesn't prove the Levitical Commandments are put away for EVERY purpose. After all, that SAME AUTHOR of Hebrews tells us that the SAME TORAH OF MOSES passes into the NEW Covenant (citing Jer.31:33 at Heb.8:10 and 10:16). Again, that SAME AUTHOR tells us that the shadow-function of Torah CONTINUES (PRESENT tense in Heb. 10:1). Again, Moses promises that 100% of ALL Torah (thus including Levitical sacrifices!) will be obeyed in the future (Dt. 30:1-8). Again, Jesus comes to RESTORE those very Levitical sacrifices "as in the days of old, as in former years" (Mal.3:4), so they are OBVIOUSLY not put away for EVERY purpose. Again, this very verse upholds GOD who commands TORAH (Dt.1:3;5:27-33).....so OBVIOUSLY it's not going to oppose obedience to that very God! "I am stuck with Jesus alone, not Moses." Bummer....JESUS is stuck with all the Torah of MOSES (Mt.5:19) for YOU (Mt.28:19-20) lest you want to be least (Mt.5:19) or worse (Mt.5:20) or worse (Mt.7:21-23) or worse (Mt.13:41-42). But hey....I've warned you plenty of times now..... blessings... Quote Bummer....JESUS is stuck with all the Torah of MOSES How silly.... 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted December 23, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 10:58 AM, simplejeff said: (I still did not see you or anyone else quote him saying this, btw) i.e. All of your posts, or anyone else's posts about him could not convict him without two or three witnesses of his heresy. I told you to go and read all my Posts to BibleMan. Pick one of the last 40, and just read what im writing as a response to his posts. His POSTS are his quotes. Go find them ALL. They all preach "Cross + Torah" = Salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrection Priest Posted December 23, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 467 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 153 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/20/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2019 18 hours ago, BibleGuy said: TORAH (Rom.2:13) and the SPIRIT (1Cor.6:11) TOGETHER for justification. No! Christ for justification! Not TORAH. Not even SPIRIT. ONLY Christ! "we have now been justified by his blood, (Rom 5:9 NIV) This is present tense. We who are "in Christ" are justified. There is NOTHING ELSE I need to do. I already HAVE that justification. I have been declared righteous, because I am covered with HIS righteousness. That is the "shield of righteousness" (Eph 6). We were drawn by the Spirit of God the Father. We saw the Father's love for us (in His gift of His Son). We believed. We were filled with His Spirit. We loved Him back. We love Him by loving others. We are enabled by His Spirit to do this. We were certainly NOT justified by keeping His commandments. That is the result (the effect) - not the cause. John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commands." 1 John 4:19 "We love because He first loved us." We are "reconciled" TO God the Father THROUGH the blood of Christ the Son. You think I am saying we can be justified without any works at all. I'm NOT SAYING THAT. I'm saying that one is cause. The other is effect. We were justified FIRST - through pure love alone - His love for us. THEN we will do good works, because His Spirit lives in us. When James says "faith without works is dead" - He means that a person who claims to be born again, who then always acts selfishly, is NOT REALLY "born of the Spirit". He's a fake. (Though we won't be perfect until after the resurrection.) When James writes: James 2:22 "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;", he is explaining that Abraham's faith was perfectly revealed by his "works" (deeds). Just remember who gets the credit for our good works. Jesus - of course. It is His Spirit working in us and through us. He is the enabler. We only consent - we volunteer to be used by Him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Behold Posted December 23, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 7 Topic Count: 87 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,795 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 3 Joined: 07/30/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) On 12/4/2019 at 2:57 PM, douge said: Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Paul is teaching that some born again believers have stopped trusting in Christ to keep them out of Hell. They are "fallen from Grace". These people have become "self savers", and have replaced Christ, The Cross, and The Blood Atonement, with SELF EFFORT. This can be defined as "enduring", "works", Lifestyle" "commandment keeping", "Torah keeping"....whatever it is that is KEEPING YOU out of Hell, in your mind, that= isn't JESUS........... If that is you, then you are not trusting in Christ, and you are what Paul has defined as a person who has "fallen....FROM......Grace"....... Grace being the Heavenly position of redemption... and you have FALLEN...from this PLACE.....and are now in a lower place......Its called SELF-RIghteousness......> "FLESH"..... where you are trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, and you have your list. "torah, commandments, not living in sin, obeying, obedience, works, works, works, self effort, self effort, and NO FAITH IN CHRIST TO KEEP YOU SAVED !!! = you are "fallen from GRACE"..... And who is Grace? JESUS THE LORD... is Grace. You've fallen from Him. You've left your faith in him and now you are trusting in what YOU DO.........as this has become your SAVIOR. You're not unsaved. (if you were really ever Born again)...(Many who teach a perverted Gospel are not born again)....But if you are, then You are just fallen from Faith, fallen from GRACE.. Fallen from Him. Paul also teaches that when a person teaches a "gospel" that does not give full credit to God and Christ for saving you and keeping you saved, then the "gospel" you are preaching is perverted, and its trying to subvert the truth and harm born again believers. This is the devil's work. And many do it in this world. The do it in the Media, they do it in Churches, and they do it on forums like this one. Edited December 23, 2019 by Behold 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 24, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2019 5 hours ago, KJVOnly said: Yikes..... 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Busted! Guilty in the 1st degree! Silly billy! We are NOT condemned in Christ (Rom.8:1) who commands all Torah (Mt.5:19). Try again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 24, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2019 5 hours ago, KJVOnly said: Okay, you asked for it... 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter(DEATH MINISTRY), but of the spirit(LIFE MINISTRY): for the letter killeth(DEATH MINISTRY), but the spirit giveth life(LIFE MINISTRY). 7 But if the ministration of death(DEATH MINISTRY), written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit(LIFE MINISTRY) be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation(DEATH MINISTRY) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness(LIFE MINISTRY) exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.(LIFE MINISTRY NULLIFIED DEATH MINISTRY AS ZERO GLORY IN COMPARISON) 11 For if that which is done away was glorious(DEATH MINISTRY FORMER GLORY), much more that which remaineth is glorious.(REMAINING LIFE MINISTRY IS NOW GLORIOUS) 12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:(LIFE MINISTRY GIVES HOPE) 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:(DEATH MINISTRY ABOLISHED) 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament(DEATH MINISTRY BLINDS); which vail is done away in Christ.(LIFE MINISTRY PER CHRIST REMOVES VAIL) "Okay, you asked for it..." You got it.....Toyyyyyota...... Wow....that's an old memory.... Anyway..... "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter(DEATH MINISTRY), but of the spirit(LIFE MINISTRY): for the letter killeth(DEATH MINISTRY), but the spirit giveth life(LIFE MINISTRY)." Ah yes! The NEW COVENANT which is given as TORAH (Jer.31;33;Heb.8:10). I LOVE it! Not of the letter without the Spirit....because that would be DEATH. But of the SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21), because the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah (Rom.8:13 + Rom.8:7), because the SPIRIT is the very substance of Jesus' words (Jn.6:63) which require TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20). After all, the SPIRIT leads us to obey even animal-sacrifice Torah (Ps.51:10,19). So Torah is obviously not terminated by the Spirit! Paul applies this Psalm to YOU (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16). The letter without the Spirit KILLS. The SPIRIT gives life! So OBEY Torah in the spirit (Rom.7:6,25) and have LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;31:15-19;32:47;Jn.14:6 + Mt.5:19;Jn.6:63 + Mt. 23:2-3,23), or else you are a liar (1Jn.2:4). " How shall not the ministration of the spirit(LIFE MINISTRY) be rather glorious?" Indeed! The SPIRIT and LIFE are glorious! So OBEY Torah in the spirit (Rom.7:6,25) and have LIFE (Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3;31:15-19;32:47;Jn.14:6 + Mt.5:19;Jn.6:63 + Mt. 23:2-3,23), or else you are a liar (1Jn.2:4). The SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16), even all Torah ordinances (Eze.36:27) "from now and forever" (Is.59:20-21), because the Spirit leads us to OBEY Torah (Rom.8:13 + Rom.8:7), because the SPIRIT is the very substance of Jesus' words (Jn.6:63) which require TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20). "For if the ministration of condemnation(DEATH MINISTRY) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness(LIFE MINISTRY) exceed in glory." YES! We DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20). We do TORAH-OBEDIENT righteousness as witnessed in the Torah and prophets (Rom.3:21) RIGHT HERE =====> Dt.6:25;Is.56:1;Da.12:3;Eze.18:5-9. "For if that which is done away was glorious(DEATH MINISTRY FORMER GLORY), much more that which remaineth is glorious." Right! The Old Covenant passes away (Heb.8:13). The SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10). NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), otherwise Jeremiah is a false prophet....(Dt.13:1-5) "Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech" Written by Paul who tells us our HOPE is in the COVENANTS (Eph.2:12) which are given as TORAH (e.g., Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10). "And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:" Yes, the glory on Moses' face faded away....and the Old Covenant passes away (Heb.8:13). But the SAME TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10). NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). SAME TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), otherwise Jeremiah is a false prophet....(Dt.13:1-5). "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament(DEATH MINISTRY BLINDS)" Then Paul would NOT apply all Torah to you. Oh wait! What's this???? Paul applies ALL TORAH TO YOU! (2Ti.3:16;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8;Is.59:20-21 cited at Rom.11:26-27). Ok...this means YOU are wrong. After all, their minds were blinded because they did NOT believe the truth. Torah is truth (Ps.119:142). So LOVE it! (1Cor.13:6). Not oppose it! "LIFE MINISTRY PER CHRIST REMOVES VAIL" Ahhh.....you mean the CHRIST who requires ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations? (Mt.28:19-20). COOL! Let's obey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 24, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2019 5 hours ago, KJVOnly said: Non answer is not an answer. Would you strike the match on gays and adulterers per Mosaic Law? Foolish questions don't deserve serious answers..... And if by (extremely remote) chance you're actually serious, then the answer is: TORAH does not define the measure of PAIN required in the Torah-death-penalties. "Would you strike the match on gays and adulterers per Mosaic Law?" You don't even read my posts.... I've told already TWICE that Lev. 20 does not require a MATCH. So of course I would not "strike the match"...... Torah does not even require matches.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 24, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 24, 2019 5 hours ago, KJVOnly said: Good. Now get off your "Torah" kick and call the entire O.T. Law. Now, you really have a stack of Laws to try to keep. Ugh! Call the entire OT "law" if you like....but that's a stretch..... You've given no good reason to suppose Ecclesiastes or Song of Songs is "law"..... But it doesn't matter! Paul applies ALL Scripture to you (2Ti.3:16). So OBEY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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