BibleGuy Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, KJVOnly said: Can't find "Torah" in the Bible. Who invented that phrase? Who said only 5 books are "Law" books? "Can't find "Torah" in the Bible." Then learn Hebrew! כִּי זֹאת הַבְּרִית אֲשֶׁר אֶכְרֹת אֶת־בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל אַחֲרֵי הַיָּמִים הָהֵם נְאֻם־יְהוָה נָתַתִּי אֶת־תֹּֽורָתִי בְּקִרְבָּם וְעַל־לִבָּם אֶכְתֲּבֶנָּה וְהָיִיתִי לָהֶם לֵֽאלֹהִים וְהֵמָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִי לְעָֽם Do you see it? " תֹּֽורָתִי " is Hebrew for "my Torah" The noun is TORAH: " תּוֹרָה " By the way, this is JEREMIAH 31:33. The VERY NEW COVENANT inaugurated in Christ's blood (Lk.22:20). "Who invented that phrase?" Hebrew has been around for a LONG time....4000 years plus? "Who said only 5 books are "Law" books?" Good question. I exclude Genesis from the "written Torah of Moses" because I doubt Moses is the original author of all the material in Genesis. Besides, there are only a few commands for us in Genesis....and even Exodus....until Ex. 12 to Ex. 13....and then FLOOD of commands beginning in Ex. 20 all the way through the end of Exodus, then all of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. So "תּוֹרָה " can refer to the WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (1Ki.2:3) which is generally EXODUS, LEVITICUS, NUMBERS, and DEUTERONOMY. But Genesis is important too....Jesus clearly takes material in Genesis seriously.....so we should too (Lk.6:40;1Jn.2:6). blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: " Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." Ouch indeed! This upholds CHRIST who requires ALL TORAH (Mt.5:19). This upholds the SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21;Heb.8:13 + Heb.8:7). This upholds Torah-obedience from the HEART (thus Paul applies Dt. 30:14 to you in Rom.10:8....that's TORAH-OBEDIENCE from the HEART!) "Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." Ah yes....the NEW COVENANT which is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). Not of the letter without the spirit....for that would kill. Rather, of the SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21;Heb.8:13 + Heb.8:7), thus walking in LIFE (Jn.6:63 + Mt. 5:19;Mt.4:4 citing Dt. 8:3 referencing TORAH). Oh by the way, this is written by Paul who requires ALL TORAH (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19). "How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" The Spirit IS glorious! The SPIRIT who testifies we obey TORAH (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27;Is.59:20-21;Heb.8:13 + Heb.8:7). "much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory." Ah yes..... RIGHTEOUSNESS! We who are righteous obey TORAH (Dt.6:25;Is.56:1;Eze.18:5-9;Da.12:3;Mt.5:20;2Ti.3:16). After all, righteousness is some thing we DO (1Jn.2:29;3:7) or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20). " For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." Yes, the glory on Moses face did fade away....along with the Old Covenant (Heb.8:13). The SAME TORAH, however, passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10 citing Jer.31:33). NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). "And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" Yes, the glory on Moses face did fade away....along with the Old Covenant (Heb.8:13). The SAME TORAH, however, passes into the NEW Covenant (Heb.8:10 citing Jer.31:33). NEW Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). SAME Torah (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ." Sad....many Israelites rejected the Messiah who requires Torah (Mt.5:19)....because many of those Israelites upheld their own bogus traditions instead of TORAH (Mk.7;Mt.23). And many Christians, today, oppose the very TORAH (Mt.5:19) which their Messiah applies to them (via Mt.28:19-20). Sigh...... It's tough to break-free from 1800-year-old anti-Torah traditions.... But let's be brave! Let's actually return to truly authentic Torah-obedient faith, as required by the Messiah (Mt.5:19) and the Apostles (Mt.23:34). blessings... You just debunked 2 Cor. 3, insisting on the keeping of the letters that kill and incessant observation of the O.T. Laws.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, KJVOnly said: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? What Law of the Jews was Jesus quoting from? Jn. 10 has Jesus citing Psalms as Law....because the Jewish establishment at that time understood that the PROPHETS are authorized by TORAH (Nu.12:6).. And, the Psalms are rightly identified as Prophetic.... Thus, the authority of the Psalms as "law" derives from the Psalms as an extension of the Prophets which are authorized by Torah. AND! Jesus says that the Psalms CAN NOT BE SET ASIDE OR BROKEN (Jn.10:35).... Thus: 1. JESUS requires Psalms (Jn.10:35) 2. Psalms require TORAH (e.g., Ps. 1;19;119). 3. Jesus requires Torah (from 1 and 2). That's ANOTHER reason for us to obey Torah! Because that's what Jesus believed and taught. blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: Not sure if you're serious or just trolling..... But TORAH is foundational. Torah sanctions the prophets, thus including Psalms. Torah authorizes the Messiah who upholds the entire Tanach. The Messiah authorizes the Apostles who wrote much of the New Testament. ALL the NT is inspired, given our good reason to trust the Spirit's guidance, and given the widespread uniformity of the NT canon across the major branches of Christianity over the past 2000 years. Torah requires Torah. Torah requires the Prophets who requires Torah. The Messiah requires the Tanach which requires Torah. The Apostles require the Tanach which requires Torah. The entire NT requires Torah. Torah is foundational in the New Covenant....Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16....being inaugurated by Christ's very blood (Lk.22:20). blessings... Speak English. Are the 34 other books of the O.T. Law or not? Kinda? Not at all? What is it...make the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 hour ago, KJVOnly said: 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. What Law of the Jews was Paul quoting from? Torah??? Paul cites Isaiah as an extension of law..... Why? TORAH authorizes the prophets (Nu.12:6)....so the prophets are simply an extension of God's lawful authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 50 minutes ago, Michael37 said: No, I would have mercy on them in the hope they would repent and come into redeeming fellowship with Christ and His body of believers. Or would the implementation of God's death-penalty laws REDUCE the practice of such sin, thus resulting in an INCREASE in widespread repentance? Thus, I'll go with God's law, to the extent possible while in diaspora.... blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 28 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: That's right! LAW #1 DISOBEY AND DIE (Dt.30:15-19) LAW #2 OBEY AND LIVE (Dt.30:15-19) And ALL TORAH passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). Good thing we (in Christ) are not under LAW #1 (Rom.8:2)....but are under LAW #2 (2Ti.3:16;Mt.5:19 + Mt.28:19-20;1Cor.7:19;1Jn.2:3;5:3). blessings... Murder gays and adulterers per Torah and live? Mkay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BibleGuy Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.47 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, KJVOnly said: Are the other 34 books also the Law? TORAH is foundational. The PROPHETS are an extension, including the Psalms, because the Psalms are prophetic too. Other writings (like Proverbs) are still Scripture, upheld by Paul and Peter, for example, but of a lesser status in the overall hierarchy...but still true and inspired as Scripture. Call it "law" if you want....it's just semantics really. ALL Scripture (all writings) apply to us (2Ti.3:16). blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: Paul cites Isaiah as an extension of law..... Why? TORAH authorizes the prophets (Nu.12:6)....so the prophets are simply an extension of God's lawful authority. I see...Paul said this...... 21 In the EXTENSION OF THE LAW it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Is this the Hebrew Roots translation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJVOnly Posted December 22, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 228 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted December 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, BibleGuy said: Of COURSE the schoolmaster function of Torah no longer applies to us in Christ, because we in Christ have ALREADY come to Christ! Is the SCHOOLMASTER function the ONLY function of Torah? Of course NOT! Torah is HOLY (Rom.7:12). BE HOLY (1Pe.1:16) means OBEY TORAH. Torah is good (Rom.7:12). DO GOOD (Gal.6:10) means OBEY TORAH. Torah is righteous (Rom.7:12). DO RIGHTEOUSNESS (1Jn.2:29;3:7;Dt.6:25;Is.56:1;Da.12:2) or else you are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20). So OBEY! Torah is SPIRITUAL (Rom.7:14). SEEK the spiritual (1Cor.14:1) thus means OBEY TORAH. So OBEY! Torah brings joy (Ps.119:162) which is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23). So obey! Torah is obeyed out of LOVE (Dt.6:5,25;1Jn.5:3;Jn.14:15 + Mt.5:19) which is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23). So obey! Torah brings peace (Ps.119:165) which is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23). So OBEY! Torah is GOODNESS (Rom.7:12) which is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23). So OBEY! Torah is of FAITH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Ps.119:30,86,138) which is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal.5:22-23). So obey! Torah defines sin (Rom.3:20;7:7;1Jn.3:4). STOP SINNING (1Cor.15:34) thus means OBEY TORAH. So OBEY! Torah is foundational to the New Covenant (Jer.31:33) inaugurated in Christ's very blood (Lk.22:20) for you. So obey! or DISOBEY and face these scary risks: Mt.5:19 or worse (Mt.5:20) or worse (Mt.7:21-23) or worse (Mt.13:41-42) Yikes! Time to obey! blessings... The Schoolmaster is the Law. It pushes us to Christ. When we get Christ, the Schoolmaster leaves. Then we have Christ alone. We are no longer under the schoolmaster, not even kinda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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