Posession

[larryt]

This is one of the most controversial topics in christianity. It is also the hardest to talk about because the demons don't want to be exposed. One of the difficulties is that the terminology is obscured by some of the words used. The word in the greek is "demonized" and means "to be influenced by a demon to some degree" form minimally to severely. Nowhere in scripture does it say the christians can be demonized, but on the other hand it doesn't say outright that they cannot be. Very much like the OSAS and loss of salvation issue. There is support for both sides.

So with that said. Does the experience fit with scripture? I have personally been involved with the ministry of casting out evil spirits. I have never cast them out of a non-christian. I have helped many oppressed believers that longed to be free to shed the shacks that the demons want to keep people under. Jesus never cast them out of unbelievers or he would have cast them out of Judas, or the pharisees. He did cast them out of people seeking His help, or the children of those seeking his help. Notice the Gaderene demoniac "ran TOWARD Jesus" and not away, trying to avoid the savior. I cannot imagine the demons running toward Jesus unless commanded to do so and there is no indication that that happened.

LT

[Guest M Paul]

This is one of the most controversial topics in christianity.  It is also the hardest to talk about because the demons don't want to be exposed.  One of the difficulties is that the terminology is obscured by some of the words used.  The word in the greek is "demonized" and means "to be influenced by a demon to some degree" form minimally to severely.  Nowhere in scripture does it say the christians can be demonized, but on the other hand it doesn't say outright that they cannot be.  Very much like the OSAS and loss of salvation issue.  There is support for both sides.

So with that said.  Does the experience fit with scripture?  I have personally been involved with the ministry of casting out evil spirits.  I have never cast them out of a non-christian.  I have helped many oppressed believers that longed to be free to shed the shacks that the demons want to keep people under.  Jesus never cast them out of unbelievers or he would have cast them out of Judas, or the pharisees.  He did cast them out of people seeking His help, or the children of those seeking his help.  Notice the Gaderene demoniac "ran TOWARD Jesus"  and not away, trying to avoid the savior.  I cannot imagine the demons running toward Jesus unless commanded to do so and there is no indication that that happened.

LT

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I'm not certain what you are saying. Are you saying "possession" means at least some degree of "demonization" and a believer cannot have even a minimum degree of influence from a demon?? Are you saying you are certain, or you think your postiion is probable, based on Scripture, or experience, or both?? And, I didn't get an answer on my question on Job 1:6 from anyone: how would you handle that one??

Regards,

Paul

Edited July 19, 2005 by M Paul

[larryt]

Ok, I'm not certain what you are saying. Are you saying "possession" means at least some degree of "demonization"

I indicated that the word translated possession should more correctly be translated demonized. As the site you linked to says.

and a believer cannot have even a minimum degree of influence from a demon??

I said the scriptures do not indicate precisely whether a christian can be demonized or not. I believe christians can be "demonized" anywhere from minimally to severely.

Are you saying you are certain, or you think your position is probable, based on Scripture, or experience, or both??

I am certain about this based both on scripture and experience.

And, I didn't get an answer on my question on Job 1:6 from anyone: how would you handle that one??

I am not sure what your question on Job 1:6 is. What do you want to know in regard to this verse?

LT

[Guest M Paul]

Larry,

I read your post that I responded to wrong. I misunderstood it. That happens to me easier on a computer screen than on paper for some reason. I don't know why, but I keep improving--but not this time.

The verse on Job is not relevant then. Sorry.

So, I don't meet people in a ministry on casting out evil spirits that often. I have studied the subject. We might converse some time.

Take care now,

Paul

[larryt]

Larry, 

I read your post that I responded to wrong. I misunderstood it. That happens to me easier on a computer screen than on paper for some reason. I don't know why, but I keep improving--but not this time.

The verse on Job is not relevant then. Sorry.

So,  I don't meet people in a ministry on casting out evil spirits that often. I have studied the subject. We might converse some time.

Take care now,

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problemo,

The reason "deliverance" workers are far and few between is this is really where the battle is, and it is my opinion that few want to really get into the fight. Consider what they said to the savior when He cast out demons.

Mt 12:24  But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Lu 11:15  But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

Think about it. Satan cannot stop God from saving people and he can do greater damage to the cause of Christ with believers than with unbelievers. Satan can imitate all the gifts of the Spirit, but he draws the line at losing his foothold to the physical world by being cast out.

LT

[justme7]

I know it is possible for an unsaved person to be posessed, but consider this.  The posessed person recieves Christ and gets saved, but nothing is done about the evil dwelling within.  Is the person still possessed?  Has the salvation cleared them out?  Anyone know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it is impossible for a person to earnestly get saved and nothing be done about the evil dwelling within them. Christ is not a partial healer. The man in Mark who was possesed by a legion of demons was not partially, but wholly healed. Remember it says that not everyone who says,'Lord, Lord," but he who does the will of the Father.

a person who is truly saved is probably not possessed. However, a person who is truly saved will always have more work to do, corrections to be made, and neccesary edification. the saved are not perfected all at once.

remember these scriptures: "evey kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls."(Luke 11:17);"faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead"(James 2:17);"You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so,every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree

cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good gruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." (Matt7:17-20).

'evil', 'demonized', and 'possesed' are strong words with far reaching implications.

is this person just still swearing here and there, lying, etc??? if so, they may not be possessed, but young and in need of discipline, which God is faithful to provide to those who continually seek.

is this person actually evil, full of hate and deception?? if so, he or she is in a dangerous position. know that there are those who will not enter throught the Door, but will try to creep in over the wall or through some tunnel. Know that not every person who professes faith is earnest. Most of all know that God sees all and unlike us cannot be fooled.

if you earnestly believe a person is possessed, pray for them, do not follow after their ways, and always seek the Word for understanding and quidance regarding fellowship with the person.

[Abigailwc]

I had a very good friend who was a christian. She was a missionary in some point in her life and devoted her life to share the Gospel wherever the Lord would take her. She was a true servant of God, denying her comfort to help others around her to the Glory of God.

Suddenly one day, everything went wrong. She was diagnosed with suffering with manic depression. She was under medications, went to hospitals as she was not getting better, or as the doctors would say: get used to her medication rendering it useless. When you would look at her, you would not believe it was the same person she was before. It's like she was somebody else. We spent time with her in the Word and in prayers. She continued going to church, fellowshipping, worshipping Him. She knew she was sick. She seeked help. She went to counseling sessions. But she never "snapped" out of it, what ever it was. I started to think that she might be under the influence of the enemy. I do not know if any pastor at church thought about it and ever tried to pray prayers of deliverance over her.

Anyway, one day, out of the blue, she was driving, stopped her car on a bridge and just jumped off. Witnesses of that tragic incident said that when they saw her walking out of the car and climbing over the bridge, she never flinched, she was very poised, seemed like a robot.

At her funeral, so many people came. I was amazed at how many people knew her. Many gave accounts of her wonderful christian life, before she got "sick".

This seemed to me that she, a very mature christian, a child of God, was being influenced/possessed by a demon/demons/Satan and never was delivered, that is ..... until her physical death.

[justme7]

it seems important that we as believers do not make the mistake of labeling every and any of our hard problems as some sort of posession.

depression, anxiety, fear of rejection, and just flat out breaking down sometimes are parts of life.

i understand demonization and posession to be related to and characterized by evil.

believers are often times oppressed, whether by themselves or external situations.

there is a man i know, lets call him andy. i met andy at a Church youth function. he had accompanied the teenagers of his Church and i, the youth of mine. immediately i was impressed. he had a certain charm. he seemed to love the Lord, and also to share my passion for our youth. he and i became friends, and later became a couple. as i got closer to him, i began to see something irregular and frightening. there was something dark there. at the weirdest times he would say or do something completely outside the boundaries of christianity all together. the more time i spent with him, i began to see him have fits of great and unprovoked rage. i learned that he had hurt others and felt no remorse. still, the closer i got, i also learned that he was full of devisiveness.

needless to say this rocked my boat. here was a man whom every one who met him was immediately impressed. a man who was in charge of the youth of a whole congregation. a man who claimed love and devotion to the LORD.

the very first thing i did was question the authenticity of his faith. i was told that i was inappropriate for that. here's the deal though...there was something obviously dark, a sort of infestation. this man literally showed no conscience even when confronted with his dubious personalities. perhaps we are not to question the salvation of another, but we are told to be gentle as doves and yet wise as serpents are we not.

wisdom told me to follow my gut. this man was dangerous. whether he was saved or not, he did not lead a private life that was characterized or changed by Christ. he was great at deception and came off in public like mr. good christian himself.

i said this to say, that i felt real evil from and in this person. real darkness.

it seems to me that a person who is posessed or demonized, would show signs of being inhabitted not just with problems or inconsistancies, but with real darkness and real craftiness.

we'll face problems and challenges in ourselves for all of our stay in these fleshly bodies....but a person whose life is in Christ, despite their failures and flaws is usually known. Christ will not be hidden.

[larryt]

it seems important that we as believers do not make the mistake of labeling every and any of our hard problems as some sort of posession. 

depression, anxiety, fear of rejection, and just flat out breaking down sometimes are parts of life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi justme7,

I don't think anyone here has labeled EVERYTHING & ANYTHING possession. On the other hand very few Christians to my knowledge and experience have the first inkling as to what our arch enemy is up to. The bible tells us to be vigilant and watchful of the wyles of the devil. To understand what he is up to so we won't be blindsided. After all we ARE at war, and one of the first things we need to understand is what is the enemy up to.

This second point you make is the point I want to address though. From my thinking nothing is just PARTS OF LIFE. Everything is working together for the believers good and Satan is working overtime to distract, deceive, destroy and depose the believer from this life.

"Depression, anxiety, fear of rejection, and just flat out breaking down sometimes" are not just parts of life. The God I know never made us to suffer these things. These are what the devil does to people to try to keep them from serving the God that created them. By the way have you not read,

2Ti 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Ro 8:15  For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

In the first the Word says that fear is a spirit. And Paul did mean a real spirit. Have you ever cast out any demons from anybody. Fear of rejection is a biggie. I've dealt with him several times. I've also dealt with spirits of depression, anxiety, pride, you name it. Most of the sins we commit there are demons behind them. Most sicknesses have spirits behind them also.

If you are walking in the Spirit you will see what is going on in the spiritual realm. If you walk only in the natural realm you will only see things as the world sees them. That is what you said. these things are just PARTS OF [this] LIFE.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Ro 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

it seems to me that a person who is posessed or demonized, would show signs of being inhabitted not just with problems or inconsistancies, but with real darkness and real craftiness.

Unfortunately many do not know the subtleties of the enemy. This guy you describe was highly demonized if your description is accurate. The enemy had a strong hold on him. In someone in whom the demons do not have such a strong hold(2Cor. 10:1-6) the enemy very often hids and lays low not giving away their position until they can strengthen it. How do you think this guy got the way he did? Did he just become infested one day with demons?

Before Jesus came on the scene the demons manifested openly because nothing could be done about them. They were bold. The people knew they existed and knew exactly what the problem was in their loved ones. They caused deafness, dumbness, physical deformities(bent over), etc.

Mr 1:27  And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine [is] this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Since the time of Jesus, we have authority to cast them out. There is a remedy. Satan has also changed his tactics to counter ours. He hids and bids his time. The demons fortify and wait till an opportune time to strike. He has also infiltrated the church.

1Ti 4:1

[MrLuke]

I can tell you from my own personal experience, that when Jesus comes into your life, and gives you the gift of the Holy Spirit dwelling within you, demons CANNOT stay dwelling inside of you! There is only room for one type of spirit in a person; and that's either God's spirit or the devil's.

Just because someone has God's Holy Spirit in them, it doesn't mean the enemy can't attack and try to influence them. Like someone else in this thread said, it's like the evil spirits are sat on your shoulder whispering in your ears, prodding you to do what they want. The good news is that now they are only perched on a unstable base, and prayer and God's Word can get rid of them much easier, and make them topple off your shoulders.

But make no mistake, if you don't keep your eyes open to the enemies tricks, and you don't keep up living in God's Word and keeping close to Him, the enemy will push you away from God and try to get back in. If you don't fight the evil, it will take over!

Become strong with the Word of God and keep living for and with Jesus, and the devil will soon learn that he can't get you back in his evil grip again.

I base all of this knowledge from my own experience and I had a long time to figure it all out and think about it!

Click here to read my testimony and see for yourself how God can triumph in what can sometimes seem a lost situation!

God can turn ALL things around for His good will!