Israel according to the flesh, Israel in Spirit

[Resurrection Priest]

18 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

And, let's not call this "replacement theology"!    Because, "replacement theology" (a.k.a. "supersessionism") is the idea that the "church" replaces "Israel".....and of course, "replacement theology" (i.e., "supersessionism") is false.

I agree. 

The LORD will "save" only "Israel".  One is either "grafted in" to that body, or not. 

There are not two bodies, or two brides.  Only one. 

There was no gate with a sign "Gentiles Enter Here", and no 13th loaf of shewbread for Gentile believers. 

One must be attached to the Olive Tree, or one cannot draw life from the holy "root".  Yeshua Messiah is that root.  He is/was/and always will be.   

It is about faith.  It's not about DNA. 

The LORD may have started with DNA descendants of Jacob (and a large mixed multitude) but over the many years, through the process of repeated breaking and grafting, He will end up with "a people" who have a heart to know Him.  How many of them will be DNA descendants, we just don't know. 

[Resurrection Priest]

31 minutes ago, BibleGuy said:

I'm not going to look at a tree and then pretend the shadow is gone.....

The shadow IS.  

Ahhh.  But if we are standing in the New Jerusalem, there will BE NO SHADOWS. 

And I'm wondering how one would visit Jerusalem, and come before the LORD, without visiting the Ark.  It was inside the Temple.   Only way one could come before the LORD, and NOT visit the Ark, is if there are no longer any "stones" kept in a golden box. 

Same principle:  We cannot fail to worship Yeshua when we bow before the throne of God and the Lamb.  They sit together on the same throne. 

[BibleGuy]

50 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

I agree. 

The LORD will "save" only "Israel".  One is either "grafted in" to that body, or not. 

There are not two bodies, or two brides.  Only one. 

There was no gate with a sign "Gentiles Enter Here", and no 13th loaf of shewbread for Gentile believers. 

One must be attached to the Olive Tree, or one cannot draw life from the holy "root".  Yeshua Messiah is that root.  He is/was/and always will be.   

It is about faith.  It's not about DNA. 

The LORD may have started with DNA descendants of Jacob (and a large mixed multitude) but over the many years, through the process of repeated breaking and grafting, He will end up with "a people" who have a heart to know Him.  How many of them will be DNA descendants, we just don't know. 

Exactly.

It's NOT about DNA.

In fact, honestly, I rather doubt ANYBODY can prove DNA ABRAHAMIC DESCENT....that's why Ge. 17:14 may not apply to ANY adults now....

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

41 minutes ago, Resurrection Priest said:

Ahhh.  But if we are standing in the New Jerusalem, there will BE NO SHADOWS. 

And I'm wondering how one would visit Jerusalem, and come before the LORD, without visiting the Ark.  It was inside the Temple.   Only way one could come before the LORD, and NOT visit the Ark, is if there are no longer any "stones" kept in a golden box. 

Same principle:  We cannot fail to worship Yeshua when we bow before the throne of God and the Lamb.  They sit together on the same throne. 

:-)

Did we agree on whether the Millennium is the time of the New Jerusalem?

Or is the New Jerusalem AFTER the Millennium?

 

And, the writers of Col.2:17 and Heb.10:1 were NOT standing in the New Jerusalem when they referenced the ONGOING shadow-function, thus confirming that the shadows CONTINUE into the New-Covenant era.

 

And the absence of the ark does not prove the absence of the applicability of Torah.

After all, the ark is presently absent....yet NO TORAH has been terminated (because Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE).

 

blessings...

 

[choir loft]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:56 PM, JohnD said:

Jeremiah 31:31–35 (AV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

 

Luke 22:20 (AV)
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

 

1 Corinthians 15:1–4 (AV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

John 3:16–18 (AV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise** is not of men, but of God.

 

** "praise" is literally what Jew / Judah means see Genesis 29:35

 

Romans 9:1–6 (AV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

The distinction and delineation of the above is the flesh versus the spirit. Physical Israel versus Spirit Israel.

 

And the New Covenant / New Testament / Gospel of Grace is with the Spirit House of Israel and the Spirit House of Judah.

 

Chalk this up to yet another biblical truth almost all mankind rejects. Pride and prejudice. The Jews are too proud to believe it and the Gentiles are too prejudice to believe it.

But the Bible bears this out, Gentile born believers in the Jewish Messiah are members of the Spirit House of Israel.

 

2 Chronicles 7:14 (AV)
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

Question: when has anyone been called by God's name? CHRISTian? That's a title and in the Hebrew is Messiah / Christ.

Answer: never.

 

Unless, you consider a name for God the Son that most are unaware of.

 

The Spirit gave this to me when I was witnessing to a Jewish Rabbi.

Isaiah 53, the suffering servant.

The Jews say the servant is Israel (quoting Isaiah 44:21).

The Spirit had me grant the Rabbi this premise.

Ordinarily, the apologetic response would be that the language is that of an individual as the servant and not a people...

But he had me grant him the premise, and it dawned on me what he was doing...

I actually said aloud, "that's brilliant, LORD."

I told the Rabbi clearly the suffering servant is Israel.

He was delighted. "Finally, a Christian who sees the truth. Isaiah 53 is not about the messiah... not about Jesus."

"Hold on," I told him. "I said the suffering servant is Israel. But we have to determine which Israel he is."

"What do you mean?" he asked.

I explained to him the following:

 

There are several Israels.

Israel the patriarch (Jacob).

Israel the people (the children of Israel).

Israel the ancient northern Kingdom.

Israel the modern State.

 

Plus one more Israel virtually no one has considered.

Israel is a name of compound words:

Yish = he

Sarar = prince

Elohiym = God

 

"and no Rabbi worth his salt would deny that the ultimate Prince

of God is the Messiah."

 

The Rabbi suddenly had to leave. 

 

This was an answer he couldn't question.

 

Questions they can't answer or answers they can't question... and it is still up to

the individual to decide whether or not to believe the truth. But a seed got planted that

day. It was up to the Rabbi if it took root or not. I never heard from him again.

 

Point I'm getting at is another name for Jesus is Israel (the Prince of God).

If we are the Spirit house of Israel then we are his people called by his name.

 

John 16:26–27 (AV)
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

The problem with arguments about Israel and the nature of the Jew arise from a lack of understanding of the difference between the Jewish religion and Christian dogma.  The approach to God by either group is diametrically opposed to the other.  Its like comparing religious apples and oranges.  It doesn't work.  Here's why:

The chief difference between Jews and Christians is that Jews hold to tradition.  Jews don't need to BELIEVE anything.  They only need to act.  Thus a good Jew can also be an atheist.

The chief difference between Christians and Jews is that Christians hold to doctrine.  Christians don't need to DO anything.   They only need to believe.  Thus a good Christian can be a murdering thieving Jew hating liar.

Both stumble over Yeshuah ha-mashiach (Jesus messiah) who insists that faith is justified by its works. (James 2:24)

Anything that smells of Jew is rejected by the church.   This is how the church usurps the Jew and His place in the State of Israel as a real and substantial nation among the family of nations.   Anything that smells of Jewish LAW is rejected.  Church licentiousness is substituted for God's honest LAW.  Any filthy thing one wishes to put one's hand to is ok by the church (provided one's donations are up to date).

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

One is NOT saved by grace when the LAW is declared to be of no account.   In point of fact one cannot be saved without the LAW! (*)

Adoption of Replacement Theology by the church has resulted in Christians becoming the greatest persecutors of Jews in history.  More Jews have been displaced and murdered by Christians than any other group of people.   Muslims are amateurs by comparison.   The holocaust, industrialized murder of innocent Jews carried out by a Christian nation, is the chief example of hatred of Jews.  

Anti-semitism continues in the church to this day and is growing in popularity even as we discuss the matter.

Scripture is quoted endlessly, as Dr. Goebbels once did, to prove the point that Jews are non-human.  The church still believes it and refuses to acknowledge the Jew in God's plan of redemption - to this day.

In point of fact Jews are the oracle of God, blessed by God, preserved by God, honored by God and put in a distinct place among the families of man BY GOD.

"I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. In you will all the families of the earth be blessed." - Genesis 12:3

One cannot hold to ideology which condemns Israel and the Jew and exalts a pagan church in its place - and expect to receive anything good from God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The purpose of the LAW is to convict of sin.  Conviction of sin leads to repentance.  Repentance leads to justification and the gift of GRACE.  GRACE is given that man may live a life pleasing to God, according to the LAW, which he cannot and will not do on his own.  

Again, the LAW leads to salvation and GRACE, which in turn leads back to the LAW and redemption.  No one can be saved apart from the LAW.

Edited December 19, 2019 by choir loft

[JohnD]

An opinion expressed.

I respect your opinion.

I will go with the Word of God, however.

[Christdiedforoursins]

Interesting read .Jesus is the true Israel the promised seed. All who believe in him are members of his body and the people of God.Jesus is the head of the body . Jesus is the perfect man, the new man in whom their is neither Jew nor gentile but all are one by faith in him as  Jesus prayed for in the gospel of John that we might be one as he and the father are one.Jesus is the Messiah of Israel the king of the Jews .The Good Shepherd who laid his life down for the sheep.the Prince of life.The modern state that calls itself Israel  but is not Israel is Antichrist.

Thank you I enjoyed reading this as I agree with what you have said.The secular state is trying to usurp the church not the other ways round.The secular state is beihaving more like Jacob than Israel.Pretending  to be the first born ,we know Christ is the firstborn of the new creation. Jesus is the  king of a spiritual nation and kingdom that has no confidence in the flesh.Land is not a part of the new covenant .people are made of dust Christ inherited us and made us truely alive again by putting his spirit in us were an eternal inheritance the children of God by faith in the Messiah  we cannot see corruption anymore.spiritual people inherit a spiritual or heavenly land the unseen.fleshly people seek that which is fleshly and seen. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. the" holy land "is not holy its were our lord was crucified and is considered in revelation to be spiritually Sodom and Egypt. We all know who lived in Sodom and Egypt.Everyone who is saved is saved by faith in the king of the Jews Jesus their is no distinction between Jews and gentiles anymore the dividing wall has been broken down when Christ died this is what he came to do to be a light to the nations and the glory of his people Israel (we're Israel if we believe in him we're his people he is our glory)

There is only one way to salvation Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by me".

But Christians must not boast or be high minded against the olive branches that are cut off but be in fear .if they come to faith they can e grafted back into Israel God is good and severe we only stand by faith in him who loved us not of any goodness of our own.Paul wished he could be cut off for the sake of his brethren .the only this g is that the religion of the Jews is a new religion rabbinic its not biblical in any way neither cana any prove their decendency from Judah whereas Paul could say I'm from Benjamin .the only Jew we know today that is worthy to note is Jesus.the son of God the lion of the tribe of Judah.I read that Judaism was made obsolete at the destruction of the temple. that the religion the people in the secular state follow is a new religion .called rabbinic Judaism . because its impossible to still observe the old testament religion after the temple was destroyed .I see this rabbinic Judaism just like any cult really like mormonisin or Islam even  .after 2000 years no one of them can say Jesus is my cousin or something like that .The flesh cannot glory in decendence the only way we can be "Jews" is by faith in our king and spiritually.no one can boast.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Christdiedforoursins

[BibleGuy]

8 hours ago, Christdiedforoursins said:

Interesting read .Jesus is the true Israel the promised seed. All who believe in him are members of his body and the people of God.Jesus is the head of the body . Jesus is the perfect man, the new man in whom their is neither Jew nor gentile but all are one by faith in him as  Jesus prayed for in the gospel of John that we might be one as he and the father are one.Jesus is the Messiah of Israel the king of the Jews .The Good Shepherd who laid his life down for the sheep.the Prince of life.The modern state that calls itself Israel  but is not Israel is Antichrist.

Thank you I enjoyed reading this as I agree with what you have said.The secular state is trying to usurp the church not the other ways round.The secular state is beihaving more like Jacob than Israel.Pretending  to be the first born ,we know Christ is the firstborn of the new creation. Jesus is the  king of a spiritual nation and kingdom that has no confidence in the flesh.Land is not a part of the new covenant .people are made of dust Christ inherited us and made us truely alive again by putting his spirit in us were an eternal inheritance the children of God by faith in the Messiah  we cannot see corruption anymore.spiritual people inherit a spiritual or heavenly land the unseen.fleshly people seek that which is fleshly and seen. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. the" holy land "is not holy its were our lord was crucified and is considered in revelation to be spiritually Sodom and Egypt. We all know who lived in Sodom and Egypt.Everyone who is saved is saved by faith in the king of the Jews Jesus their is no distinction between Jews and gentiles anymore the dividing wall has been broken down when Christ died this is what he came to do to be a light to the nations and the glory of his people Israel (we're Israel if we believe in him we're his people he is our glory)

There is only one way to salvation Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father but by me".

But Christians must not boast or be high minded against the olive branches that are cut off but be in fear .if they come to faith they can e grafted back into Israel God is good and severe we only stand by faith in him who loved us not of any goodness of our own.Paul wished he could be cut off for the sake of his brethren .the only this g is that the religion of the Jews is a new religion rabbinic its not biblical in any way neither cana any prove their decendency from Judah whereas Paul could say I'm from Benjamin .the only Jew we know today that is worthy to note is Jesus.the son of God the lion of the tribe of Judah.I read that Judaism was made obsolete at the destruction of the temple. that the religion the people in the secular state follow is a new religion .called rabbinic Judaism . because its impossible to still observe the old testament religion after the temple was destroyed .I see this rabbinic Judaism just like any cult really like mormonisin or Islam even  .after 2000 years no one of them can say Jesus is my cousin or something like that .The flesh cannot glory in decendence the only way we can be "Jews" is by faith in our king and spiritually.no one can boast.

Hi there!

Lots of great points in there!

I'd thought I'd chat about something, though:  The LAND-PROMISE.

 

So let's see here....you wrote this: "Land is not a part of the new covenant ."

However, in the New Covenant, we all obey TORAH (Jer.31:33)....

AND!

We all obey Torah when we return to inherit the land promised to us (Dt.30:1-8).

This confirms that the LAND-PROMISE is linked to the NEW COVENANT.

 

Again, Paul affirms that all believers SHARE IN THE INHERITANCE (Gal.3:29).....that's the same LAND INHERITANCE promised to Abraham.

 

Jesus agrees that His disciples will inherit the promised land (Mt.5:5).

 

So, I just wanted to encourage you to realize that we DO share in the land promised to us, as Israelites in Christ.

 

".spiritual people inherit a spiritual or heavenly land the unseen."

TORAH is spiritual (Rom.7:14).  TORAH promises a PHYSICAL LAND INHERITANCE (Dt.30:1-8).  So the "spiritual or physical" is a false dichotomy.....we share in BOTH!

 

We have PHYSICAL bodies too....and Abraham WILL inherit the PHYSICAL land promised to him......otherwise God was a liar.

ALL of us Israelites will inherit the PHYSICAL land promised to us....otherwise God was a liar.

 

After all, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE.  It has NOT yet happened.  And it WILL happen...otherwise Moses is a false prophet.  Thus, we WILL again return to inherit the land and again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt. 30:1-8).

And, since this same Torah passes into the NEW Covenant (Jer.31:33).....that's the link between New Covenant and the LAND!  We will obey 100% of ALL Torah (Jer.31:33) WHEN we return to inherit the land promised to us (Dt.30:1-8).

 

" Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. "

That's because Jesus has not yet returned to this PHYSICAL WORLD to set up His kingdom....but He will!  And He will rule the nations of this PHYSICAL WORLD (Ps.2:8-9).

Jesus will return to rule Israel IN THE PHYSICAL LAND (Jer.23:5).

Jesus will return to restore the animal sacrifices IN THE PHYSICAL TEMPLE (Mal.3:4;Zec.6;Eze.40-47).

 

"their is no distinction between Jews and gentiles anymore"

Rather, Paul is STILL A JEW (not a Gentile).  Ac.21:39.  Ac. 22:3.

 

"we're Israel if we believe in him "

Yes!  That's right!

And Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4).

Israelites inherit the PROMISED PHYSICAL LAND (Dt.30:1-8;Eze.36:24;Eze.37:12-14,21-22,25).

Jesus will come to fulfill the Davidic Covenant, which includes restoration of LEVITICAL SACRIFICIAL ACTIVITY (Jer.33:18-22)....that's PHYSICAL activity in the PHYSICAL TEMPLE in the PHYSICAL LAND.

THIS is our great inheritance in the PHYSICAL land promised to us and our descendants!

 

"I read that Judaism was made obsolete at the destruction of the temple."

BIBLICAL Christianity IS a Judaism (Ac.24:5,14;28:22)....and it's not obsolete.

 

"because its impossible to still observe the old testament religion after the temple was destroyed "

Don't worry!  WE will again obey 100% of all Torah, WHEN we return to inherit the PHYSICAL land promised to us as Israelites (Dt.30:1-8).

But, we are still in diaspora (as in Jas.1:1)....so, we do what we can....

 

"The flesh cannot glory in decendence"

Exactly!

 

blessings....

 

[Christdiedforoursins]

 Thank you for your response and time I appreciate you message.its interesting to hear your opinion .Love is the fulfillment of the law.Dear sir if you read the wrightings of Paul in the new testament you will see what I wrote is in agreement with what he wrote .the old covenant is done away with ."behold the new is come" Jesus came to make all things new.Dear sir you never mentioned much about Jesus or what he has done for us so I presume your following some form of zionism.Jesus is the LAmb if God who takes away the sins of the world .The Messiah died for our sins according to the scriptures was buried and rose again on the third day according to the scriptures 1Corinthians 15:3-4 we seek a heavenly country Christians are pilgrims and foreigners in the world but citizens of heaven. If you read the new testament you will come across all the things I have written and find them to be true.I hope not to offend you in any way and really appreciate your time and reply thank you so much for sharing.I would love to go through verse by verse with you I might do it  later but it's all in the new testament I can only direct you for now .if you celebrate the sabbath  Shalom may Jesus give you peace.??

Edited December 21, 2019 by Christdiedforoursins
I was wrong in something I said

[Resurrection Priest]

On 12/18/2019 at 12:41 PM, BibleGuy said:

Did we agree on whether the Millennium is the time of the New Jerusalem?

Or is the New Jerusalem AFTER the Millennium?

Don't know that we agreed.  Doubt it.

I believe this present "heaven and earth", "will pass away" at the Glorious Appearing of Yeshua Messiah.  That is when Messiah will resurrect those who belong to Him. 

Job 14:12 "So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens be no more, they will not awake nor be roused from their sleep." (Job 14:12 NKJ)

    1 Thessalonians 4:16,17  “For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”    This is one event!

(Which means that jots and tittles can pass from "the Law" at that point.)

That means Yeshua will need to create "new heavens and new earth" for any inhabited millennium following. 

We know that Satan is cast into the abyss for 1000 years, and is then released for some short period of time, to deceive "the nations" which are in the four corners of the earth.  Which would put that "release" at the 8th millennium, along with the final battle of Gog/Magog.  

Following that cleansing of the final rebels - by fire, the New Jerusalem can descend to earth. 

I believe the New Jerusalem cannot descend to earth until it is cleansed of all sin/sinners/death.  I don't believe that will happen until some point in the 8th millennium.