Dennis1209 Posted December 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 Most y'all are on the same thought process. To keep this manageable and condensed, I'll omit most supporting scriptures to support my view, just ask if you disagree. I highly recommend watching a Youtube video from "the Door" produced by Michael Pearl, "Was there no death during the Gap?" [22:48]. Based on Romans 5: 12. Question (1). Lucifer first sinned. He rebelled and sinned sometime before the creation of Adam and Eve. Satan [or the serpent] beguiled [deceived: deceiving is a sin] Eve, Eve's sin was not the first sin committed. Question (2). Was death and sin present in the world and universe before Adam & Eve sinned? Satan was a murder from the beginning. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning... Whom did Satan murder? It couldn't of been the first recorded murder of Able by Cain; that wasn't even the beginning. John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. [emphasis added] If Satan was the first to sin, then sin was universal in the first and second heavens [atmosphere and whole universe]. Perhaps this is why all of creation moans and awaits its redemption. What always in every case follows sin? Death. Life can not exist unless there is first death. Trees and plant life can not grow unless something in the soil dies and decomposes first. Worms and microorganisms live and die off of something that died first before they become compost. When the fish in the sea were created, what did they eat to grow and survive? Another living organism, most likely a smaller fish or living aquatic life. To survive before the fall, carnivorous animals probably ate plant life, and much of what they grazed had to die and pass through digestive systems. Many examples could be cited, but death had to occur before the fall to support life. Death came into the world [humanity] because of the fall. Universally, sin and death I believe had to pre-exist before the fall of man. Question (3). Who was a murderer from the beginning? Satan, answered above. Again, whom did he murder and when did it occur? Question (4). Was Adam made and formed mortal? Yes. He did not have a glorified body and was subject to death. He was cut off from the tree of life which sustained his intended immortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted December 7, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 7, 2019 2 hours ago, missmuffet said: Eve sinned first. It was the sin of pride that led her to eat the apple. Adam is the father of sin. To be beguiled [deceived, lied to] by someone, is it a sin? Whom beguiled Eve? 2 hours ago, missmuffet said: Adam was mortal before he sinned and ate the apple I say it was a watermelon. Show me in scripture it was an apple. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted December 7, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted December 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: No doubt you're going to see where this is heading by these easy questions. (1) Whom sinned first and whom is the 'father of sin'? (2) Was death and sin present in the world and universe before the fall of Adam & Eve? (3) Who was a murderer from the beginning? [Hint: No, Cain is not in the beginning]. (4) Was Adam made and formed 'mortal'? Looks like I was five minutes late again on the answers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 1 hour ago, johnthebaptist said: 4. If "mortal" means "destined to die," I would have to say yes. I don't see where this is heading. It starting to form, read my explanation above on my thoughts, and I'll possibly expand on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 44 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.93 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted December 8, 2019 6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: (1) Whom sinned first and whom is the 'father of sin'? (1) If Lucifer hadn't blown it in the first place, and tempted Adam and Eve to do the same, none of the horrible mess we're now in would have happened. Boy, am I ticked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frienduff thaylorde Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Mars Hill Followers: 17 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 13,256 Content Per Day: 5.34 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 62 Joined: 07/07/2017 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/25/1972 Share Posted December 8, 2019 3 hours ago, missmuffet said: (1) Whom sinned first and whom is the 'father of sin'? Eve sinned first. It was the sin of pride that led her to eat the apple. Adam is the father of sin. (2) Was death and sin present in the world and universe before the fall of Adam & Eve? No (3) Who was a murderer from the beginning? [Hint: No, Cain is not in the beginning]. Satan (4) Was Adam made and formed 'mortal'? Adam was mortal before he sinned and ate the apple. He was immortal after he sinned and ate the apple. The first to sin was satan . Perfect in beauty He was , perfect gifts he was given , perfect wisdom and knowledge he was given . And his sin was not in the gifts , for the gifts were perfect . THE SIN was in HIS BECOMING enamored WITH those gifts and SEEING HIMSELF as the big THANG . AND this is the sin in many charamatic churches and many even today . SATAN SINNED FIRST . Man was made perfect and upright too . The sin was not in how man or satan was made , nor the gifts they were given , the sin was in their own desire for all had free will . Folks , let us remember we were made in the image of GOD , AND GOD desires preminence over all things . FOR GOD to desire this , is RIGHTEOUS but for the created to desire anything that exalts itself over GOD , IT IS EVIL . ANd it was the down fall of satan . Satan , like Copeland and scores of others , DESIRE THE TO beas GOD syndrome . AND it wont end well for a one of them . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 5 minutes ago, BeauJangles said: (1) If Lucifer hadn't blown it in the first place, and tempted Adam and Eve to do the same, none of the horrible mess we're now in would have happened. Boy, am I ticked! More unanswerable questions: We know God knows the beginning from the end, He is in control, and His plan and purposes will be fulfilled. He knew us even before we we in the womb. Ever consider; if just one little thing or event was different, would the Lord have brought us individually into existence? I best leave that one to the philosophers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 8 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said: The first to sin was satan . Perfect in beauty He was , perfect gifts he was given , perfect wisdom and knowledge he was given . And his sin was not in the gifts , for the gifts were perfect . THE SIN was in HIS BECOMING enamored WITH those gifts and SEEING HIMSELF as the big THANG . AND this is the sin in many charamatic churches and many even today . SATAN SINNED FIRST . Man was made perfect and upright too . The sin was not in how man or satan was made , nor the gifts they were given , the sin was in their own desire for all had free will . Folks , let us remember we were made in the image of GOD , AND GOD desires preminence over all things . FOR GOD to desire this , is RIGHTEOUS but for the created to desire anything that exalts itself over GOD , IT IS EVIL . ANd it was the down fall of satan . Satan , like Copeland and scores of others , DESIRE THE TO beas GOD syndrome . AND it wont end well for a one of them . Yep, three big key words: Pride and free will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Sonshine said: Here is Lucifer’s sin of Pride: Isaiah 14:12-14 King James Version (KJV) 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yep, the infamous five I's... That's was going to be part of this debate / discussion; in reference to Genesis and the creation account, when or at what point did this occur??? If sin and death [plant, animal, organisms, and the first murderer] existed prior to Genesis 1:3; seems to me we have to look at the six day creation account as a refashioning - restoration of the earth? I could certainly be wrong in my changed view. For decades I thought that everything that exists and is was created [ex nihilo] in the six day creation account. But the more I study and understand, I believe there is indeed a gap of undetermined time between Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 1:3. I'm not knocking 'creation scientists' in their theory everything was created 'ex nihilo' in the six day account. But this 'theory' and view is not supported by scripture, and is a historically recent theological theory. The overwhelming majority of early church fathers and Jewish belief's; hold that a refashioning occurred in the six days and not everything ex nihilo; according to my research and study anyway. Do we pay careful attention to what we hear and read?? This won't work in writing, but let me ask you to do something. Your spouse or the next person you run across, ask them to respond to a few questions quickly, you may find out our perceptions are not what you think... Do the following quickly... (1) How do you spell SILK, quickly followed by, "what do dairy cows drink"? (2) How do you spell SLOP? quickly followed by, "what do you do driving at a green light"? Let me know their answers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted December 8, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 347 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,466 Content Per Day: 2.70 Reputation: 5,378 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 8, 2019 Just now, Sonshine said: He got them both right with no problem—not even a teeny hesitation. His answers were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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