I'm struggeling to accept hell

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Coliseum said:

I simply responded to what I read quoted below. My response tries to take into account what I perceived you to say; namely, that our understanding, and God's understanding, should not differ according to what we consider true, rather than what I read God considers true. Maybe people did read what you wrote but are unclear on what you meant. Perhaps more clearly stating it might help.

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"Many Christians don't believe the Bible teaches that hell is a place of eternal torture.

I am one of these. There is no way that the God I have come to know would torture for eternity a being who did not ask to be born into a sinful race.

There is eternal Life 'In Christ' and there is a final 'death'. A perishing. Hell or Gehenna was  very well understood as a trash heap outside the gates of Jerusalem where the smoke of dead carcasses and refuse rises continually.

I suggest that you set your heart to study this and in the meantime, be at peace. Our God--your God--is a being of justice not injustice.

Would any man that is not insane consign another to eternal torture? Of course not. How then could a loving and just God do that?

The popular doctrine of hell and eternal torture is a doctrine of devils designed to drive men from God."

Ha ha---thanks, but my little essay is very clear.

:-)

I am attempting by studying available scripture what the Lord thinks.

This is precisely the goal.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Alive

[Alive]

The following are actually real live scripture verses.........not a manipulation of any kind on my part.

Just the verses. Words indeed have meaning.

 

Perish used 22 times in the NT

Mounce Greek Dictionary (Greek Entry)

 

GK G660 | S G622   ἀπόλλυμι   apollymi   90x  

 

to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; to lose, be deprived of, Mt. 10:42; to be destroyed, perish, Mt. 9:17; to be put to death, to die, Mt. 26:52; to be lost, to stray, Mt. 10:6 → destroy; lose; perish.

 

 

 

Matt. 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. ³⁰ And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

 

Matt. 8:25 Then His disciples came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Lord, save us! We are perishing!”

 

Matt. 8:32   And He said to them, “Go.” So when they had come out, they went into the herd of swine. And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.

 

Matt. 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

 

Matt. 26:52   But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

 

Mark 4:38 But He was in the stern, asleep on a pillow. And they awoke Him and said to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?”

 

Luke 8:24 And they came to Him and awoke Him, saying, “Master, Master, we are perishing!”

 

Then He arose and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water. And they ceased, and there was a calm.

 

Luke 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

 

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

 

Luke 13:5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

 

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem.

 

Luke 15:17   “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

 

John 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. ¹⁶ For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

 

John 10:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

 

John 11:50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.”

 

Acts 5:37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed.

 

Acts 8:20   But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!

 

Acts 13:41 “Behold, you despisers,

Marvel and perish!

For I work a work in your days,

A work which you will by no means believe,

Though one were to declare it to you.’ ”

 

Rom. 2:12   For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

 

1Cor. 1:18   For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

1Cor. 8:11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

 

1Cor. 15:18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

 

2Cor. 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

 

2Cor. 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

 

2Cor. 4:16   Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

 

Col. 2:22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?

 

2Th. 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

Heb. 1:11 They will perish, but You remain;

And they will all grow old like a garment;

 

Heb. 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

James 1:11 For no sooner has the sun risen with a burning heat than it withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beautiful appearance perishes. So the rich man also will fade away in his pursuits.

 

1Pet. 1:7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,

 

2Pet. 2:12   But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

 

2Pet. 3:6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.

 

2Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

Jude 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

 

Destroy used 36 times in the NT.

Thayer (Greek Entry)

 

2647. καταλύω; kataluō; future katalusō; 1 aorist katelusa; 1 aorist passive kateluthēn; 1 future passive 3 person singular kataluthēsetai; to dissolve, disunite (see, III. 4); a. (what has been joined together) equivalent to to destroy, demolish: lithous (A.V. throw down),

 

Matt. 2:13   Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”

 

Matt. 5:17   “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

 

Matt. 6:19   “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;

 

Matt. 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

Matt. 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.

 

Matt. 21:41   They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

 

Matt. 26:61 and said, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days.’ ”

 

Matt. 27:20   But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.

 

Matt. 27:40 and saying, “You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”

 

Mark 1:24 saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”

 

Mark 3:6 Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him.

 

Mark 9:22 And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”

 

Mark 11:18   And the scribes and chief priests heard it and sought how they might destroy Him; for they feared Him, because all the people were astonished at His teaching.

 

Mark 12:9   “Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others.

 

Mark 14:58 “We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.’ ”

 

Mark 15:29   And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads and saying, “Aha! You who destroy the temple and build it in three days,

 

Luke 4:34 saying, “Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”

 

Luke 6:9 Then Jesus said to them, “I will ask you one thing: Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy?”

 

Luke 9:56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village.

 

Luke 19:47   And He was teaching daily in the temple. But the chief priests, the scribes, and the leaders of the people sought to destroy Him,

 

Luke 20:16 He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”

 

And when they heard it they said, “Certainly not!”

 

John 2:19   Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

 

John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

 

Acts 6:14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”

 

Rom. 14:15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

 

Rom. 14:20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

 

1Cor. 1:19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

 

1Cor. 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

1Cor. 6:13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

 

Gal. 1:13   For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it.

 

Gal. 1:23 But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.”

 

2Th. 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

 

Heb. 2:14   Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

 

James 4:12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

 

1John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

 

Rev. 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,

And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,

And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

And those who fear Your name, small and great,

And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Margo1945 said:

wowwwwwwwww, @Alive, thanks for all the quoted bible passages .. I shall check them all .. 

as for your wanting to go through all step by step with me, I do know what all says but I do not necessarily agree with how all said is interpreted .. eg. as a new creation in the second Adam aka Jesus Christ, can we sin .. this can be taken two ways .. some say, no, we can no longer sin .. I say, until death, we can all "choose freely" to willfully sin and when we do so, we can "choose" to repent or not repent .. no one makes us sin but ourselves and no one can make us repent aka have a change of heart so as to turn back to God and HIS Will .. we need to make that choice, too

OK---yes we can yield to the flesh and sin. Of course. This is patently obvious. Continuing in sin without a heart for repentance is another thing altogether.

We can resist the promptings of the Spirit while doing our own thing. This is also obvious. Paul and Peter implore us to walk worthy of the calling and Christ.

Our Father disciplines us when we take the wrong fork, but it doesn't undo 'sonship'.

Let's move on once again to the 'New Creation' In Christ and the finished work of God In Christ for us. You died and yet you live.

You were severed from the first Adam and were raised in newness of Life as a member of the Second race of man. You are kept in heaven in Christ by God.

This is a Nature change. A change of 'kind' as illustrated in Genesis for us.

Can 'kind' change itself to another 'kind'? Did you make that change of Nature of your own will? I know you can picture the scriptures behind my words, but I can quote them if you like.

Assuming that you didn't put yourself into the New Man, can you remove yourself from the New Man and put yourself back into Adam the 1st?

This is important because the principles behind this stuff inform everything else we read in scripture.

Can a cat become a dog? If God made a cat a dog, could the new dog by its own 'choices' become a cat?

Remember you have invoked a persons 'choices' here.

[frienduff thaylorde]

3 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Friend, ...this isn't meant as an attack, ...so please don't turn it into one...

Have you ever considered, ...since you are in the "minority," ...maybe you are the one that is wrong and needs to "get with" God's program?

Here is an example of where you are wrong...

There is not one blood bought born again child of God, here at Worthy, that believes in what you call "OSAS," ...that believes this way, ...teaches this heresy, ...and lives their lives this way.

What you are doing, and I say this in the love of Christ in the hope that you might "see" what you are actually saying is;

Jesus Christ's death on the Cross, 2,000 years ago, is not enough to "secure" our Salvation, ...Margo, you say we must "add" our works of "repentance" to His "work" on the Cross to be "saved," ...when the Holy Spirit clearly states:

For by Grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.   Eph 2:8-9

We, who you say are wrong, in our thinking and Theology believe in the "Faith" given to us to "even" believe, ...we are "Saved" by Grace, Grace is a gift and we all know we don't have to "work" for a gift, ...Grace is receiving something we don't deserve, ...you, me, all of us do not deserve to be "Saved," but God in His unfathomable Love for us chose us, plucked us out of this "cesspool" of humanity, washed us, cleansed us in the Blood of His Son and "DECLARED" us Righteous, Holy and Blameless, ...and..., He did that BEFORE He created this planet we live on, ...let me repeat that.

He did that BEFORE He created this planet we live on, ...here, read it for yourself, ...I didn't say that, ...God did:

...according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,  to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One (Jesus) having been loved.  Eph 1:4-6  ESV

God said HE chose us, HE declared us Holy and Blameless, HE has adopted us as His children, and His choice was made in Love in/from His Will, ...God, Father, ...He said we are "accepted" in His beloved Son Jesus Christ, ...all of that ages and ages, eons and eons, "...before" He created this planet!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, ...think about that, conscientiously mediate on this, ...write on a piece of paper a short sentence of what you believe, you always have what you have written to fall back on,  ...and then ask God to clear your mind and ask Him if it's His TRUTH...

Dear Margo, ...you are not arguing against us here at Worthy, ...you are arguing against what God has said...

Lord bless

 

 

You sure about that .   cause I asked one a certain question .  perhaps I can ask you the same question

Lets say a gay man , as any man ,  being evil was one day led to JESUS .   repented of that said lifestyle , as JESUS leads all sheep to do ,

But then later returns back to that same evil lifestyle ,  and dies in that act , the very act of man with man .   IS THEIR END ETNERAL LIFE or ETERNAL DAMNATION .

PS , your BUDDY answered it DEAD WRONG .

But I have hope ,  you might just answer this one right .   I Don't label all in one boat .  I ask questions .

But be advised ,  a well known man here , FAILED THIS TEST HUGE .  

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

You sure about that .   cause I asked one a certain question .  perhaps I can ask you the same question

Lets say a gay man , as any man ,  being evil was one day led to JESUS .   repented of that said lifestyle , as JESUS leads all sheep to do ,

But then later returns back to that same evil lifestyle ,  and dies in that act , the very act of man with man .   IS THEIR END ETNERAL LIFE or ETERNAL DAMNATION .

PS , your BUDDY answered it DEAD WRONG .

But I have hope ,  you might just answer this one right .   I Don't label all in one boat .  I ask questions .

But be advised ,  a well known man here , FAILED THIS TEST HUGE .  

I will answer.

If that man was truly born again, then he will face his Lord as a son and will be judged the same way you are--according to the deeds in the flesh, but his sin is forgiven and washed into oblivion by the blood, just as your own sins are.

Homosexuality is a sin like others.

Have you ever thought bad thoughts about a neighbor and then just forgot about it maybe because life is busy and you just moved on? Have you ever failed to love your neighbor as yourself? Judge not less you be judged and in the same manner that you judge others, you will be judged.

That door swings both ways.

Your example and question is hypothetical, but if it happened the way you describe--it does not change 'New Life'. It does put an accent on behavior. 

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, Margo1945 said:

see my post in "I'm struggling to accept Hell" on page 17 .. I can't keep repeating what I believe over and over again .. I know what grace is .. and I know what freely chosen ongoing willful sinning is and the latter will only be forgiven when the one doing it repents aka (also known as) turns "back" to God and "back" to doing God's Will .. see my post cited 

I am going to quoate the BIBLICAL VERSION of the GRACE OF GOD that brings SALVATION .

This way  it can be clearly seen .

For many preach a grace very contrary to this grace ,  they preach a grace very contrary to both peter and pauls warnings ,  AND JESUS HIMSELF .

The grace of GOD that brings Salvation has appeared to all ,   TEACHING US .   Okay lets see what it teaches us ,

TEACHING US to DENY ALL ,  ALL ungodliness and wordly lusts and to be LIVING righteously , godly , soberly IN this world .

The goodness of GOD leads us to what ,  REPENTANCE .

And now a word from Hebrews .  

But exhort one another DAILY , while it is called TODAY

lest anyone becomes hardened through the deceitfulness of SIN

FOR we are made partakers of CHRIST ,  IF , IF we hold

the beginning of our confidence steadfast TO THE END .

It aint once saved always saved ,  ITS JESUS ONLY SAVES , ONLY WE BETTER CONTINUE IN HIM , IN THE GOODNESS of GOD , or we WILL BE CUT OFF .

part of that comes from romans also .

IF sin cant harden our heart , THEN WHY DID PAUL MAKE THAT WRITING SO PLAIN .  and then warn WE BETTER CONTINUE TO THE END .

But lets examine what he tells TIMOTHY .

ANd let all pay SUPER CLOSE ATTENTION to this one .

HE uses this case against younger widows .  WATCH THIS .

But the younger widows refuse , for when they have began to wax wanton Against Christ they will marry ,

Having DAMANATION .     lets stop here ,   WHY will they have damanation .     Lets read on .

Having damnation because they left off their FIRST FAITH .

AKA ,  having damnation because they no longer have THAT GOOD PURE FAITH they ONCE HAD AT FIRST .   IT SURE CAN HAPPEN and SIN is what HARDNES The heart .

But lets read on . 

To the same church of Ephesus ,    that timothy was over

GOD speaks from on high and says ,  BUT YOU have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE .    Means they FELL From the love that they once had , THAT PURE love , pure faith .

And GOD SAYS , REPENT OR ELSE .  

WE CANT DIE IN WILLFULL SIN .     OR ELSE  .   God loves so he warns , but if we don't heed the warning and repent not ,  WE GET THE OR ELSE PART .

MARGO is right .   WE MUST Repent of any errors we do ,  if not ,   RECIEVE THE OR ELSE .

[frienduff thaylorde]

14 minutes ago, Alive said:

I will answer.

If that man was truly born again, then he will face his Lord as a son and will be judged the same way you are--according to the deeds in the flesh, but his sin is forgiven and washed into oblivion by the blood, just as your own sins are.

Homosexuality is a sin like others.

Have you ever thought bad thoughts about a neighbor and then just forgot about it maybe because life is busy and you just moved on? Have you ever failed to love your neighbor as yourself? Judge not less you be judged and in the same manner that you judge others, you will be judged.

That door swings both ways.

Your example and question is hypothetical, but if it happened the way you describe--it does not change 'New Life'. It does put an accent on behavior. 

Your reasoning may sound good to many , BUT IF FAILED WHAT PETER TUAGHT .

And this is why I keep crying , GO back to bibles .

For if AFTER they have ESCAPED the pollutions of the world

THROUGH the knowledge of JESUS CHRIST , they are again entangled and OVERCOME

, the latter END IS WORSE FOR THEM .

FOR it had been better for them to NEVER have KNOWN the way OF RIGHTEOUNESS , THAN AFTER THEY KNOW IT

to TURN the HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered unto them .

SIN CAN and WILL and DOES HARDEN A HEART .

But will you heed this reminder ,  OR WILL YOU TWIST IT unto your own destruction .

There was a reason why I did not ask you the question .      For your answer will show the reason I asked it not to you .

All over the bible and to the seven churches , if one is in error the call was REPENT OR ELSE .      SO WHY is it , many no longer heed nor teach that .

GOD shall indeed , as proverbs says , put out the candle of the wicked ,   and He told that church of Ephesus , REPENT , or I will put OUT your candle stick .

ITS repent or we get the OR else .  GOD wont be mocked , what we sow to is what we reap .

I suggest when it comes to all things WE RETURN TO BIBLES ONLY ,

but hey what each one does , IS ON THEM  .    I wont be staying here fighting and striving with any who desires not to hear .  All I can now do , IS PRAY for folks .

I said more than enough for now at least .

[frienduff thaylorde]

and on that note , to other posts I go ,  rejoicing and praising IN THE LORD .    Let all who love JESUS in SINCERITY raise those hands and praise the LORD .

Let all who love him not , be anathema marantha .   PAUL SAID IT ,  so do I .    look up what it means .   CHURCH , ITS TIME TO MAKE THE LAST and FINAL STAND .

ETHER we are HIS and FOR JESUS , or we wont make it . 

[Alive]

First off--none of those scriptures apply to the scenario. You misunderstand them. There are many who have the knowledge of Christ, who are not born from above.

Secondly, he was talking about the witness of the church of Ephesus and not an individual son of God.

Everything must square up with the final and complete work of Christ on the cross.

 

Eph. 1:13   In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, ¹⁴ who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

 

[Alive]

You believe God can't tolerate sin and that that sin will negate 'New Life'--will undo what God did in the work of Christ.

You believe that you have recalled and repented of every one of your sins?

No--of course not. I speak foolishly from the perspective of man.

The cross of Jesus Christ. His blood shed for atonement of sin and sins. Actually, His death and resurrection for 'sin' and His blood for 'sins'.

According to your doctrine, that one sin that you forgot or returned to damns you and Christ abandons you. That He kills His own Life that the Father freely gave as a gift---to you. And returns you to the old race of men and then throws you into hell.

You---the one that He died for and said He would never leave or forsake.

I feel sorry for you and those who hold these doctrines.

You can not be perfect. You will fail. The matter of degree is irrelevant. Your doctrine ensures your destruction.

I thank God that you are wrong and that rather; you will be kept safe 'In Him' according the His work and faithfulness.

May God bless you.