What is "True Faith"

[HILL]

What is "true faith"?

People keep saying that true faith will always produce good works.

Is that true? Does God totally take over and we no longer have free will?

I have only found 1 definition of faith in the bible, so I think that it is the definition of true faith.

True faith defined

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I dont see in that verse were it says works is a by product of faith.

I do know that

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please Him

for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

Wow a revelation, a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I think people misunderstand us because they think we are saying that works are more important that faith.

I see works as a byproduct of love

Galations 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision

BUT FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

Faith which worketh by love not love worketh by faith.

Like I have said before faith is the starting point, God guides us by faith it is up to us to listen to God and be His workmen. That is why we are saved by grace through faith, becasue faith is the starting point no one can come to the Father unless they believe in Jesus.But it doesnt end there. If we dont what He says we are the unprofitable servant and we all know what God did to the unprofitable servant.

Revelations 3:15-16

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot:

I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

They are being judged by their works. They obviously have faith why would Jesus be concerned with nonbelievers being lukewarm they will always be cold unless God grants them repentance.

I believe that 2 Thessalonians 3:10 isn't just talking about lazy people and earthly physical labor it is also talking about spirtualy lazy people too.

For even when we were with you, this we commanded you,

that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

I get a clear picture by what God has revealed to me through scripture that what we do does matter. We choose to work for Him. I believe many people have true faith but they dont seek God for understanding and take men for their word on thier interpretation of the bible and leave it at that. And they think that faith alone is enough. And it is not by works of any man it is the work God has laid down for us to do. If you dont know what that is then read the bible.

That is the difference between a hearer and a doer. Doers understand what has to be done hearers only believe.

Isaiah 45:19

I have not spoken insecret,

In a dark place of the earth

I did not say to the seed of Jacob "Seek me in vain"

I, the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

[EricH]

Then the remainder of Hebrews 11 is an outline of the action people took that was made possible by their faith. These works did not creat their faith. Their faith created the works

[apothanein kerdos]

There is no such thing as Free Will...that is the failure of your analysis.

There is limited will, however our will cannot surpass God's...unless of course you want to be a Diest.

For instance, limited will believes that once be belong to God we can sin and go against His Will, but ultimately He brings us back to it. The flaw in your essay is you assume we have absolute free will....the other flaw is that it puts grace through a meat grinder and then throws it in the trash.

[Scarletprayers]

There is no such thing as Free Will...that is the failure of your analysis.

There is limited will, however our will cannot surpass God's...unless of course you want to be a Diest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sj, can you explain this more fully?

Thanks

[apothanein kerdos]

There is no such thing as Free Will...that is the failure of your analysis.

There is limited will, however our will cannot surpass God's...unless of course you want to be a Diest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sj, can you explain this more fully?

Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Already edited.

I believe that God sends the invitation of salvation to man, and it is up to man to accept this invitation and deny this invitation. However, numerous scriptures show that GOd limits man's will, saved and unsaved, significantly. He holds back the evil in the world, directs and guides us, and in the book of Hosea He is a controlling husband that hems us in.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Ovedya gave a really good definition of faith on one of the other posts:

So what is faith really? We all know the verse in Hebrews 11:1 which says that faith is the substantiation of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Ask yourself, "What are the things hoped for according to the Bible?" Of course we all have our own concept of things hoped for, don't we? We hope for a better job, we hope for a happy marriage, we hope for better lives for our kids. But those things have nothing to do with faith. By faith we can believe that God will provide for us, certainly. However, the things hoped for in the Bible are all related to Christ:

"We have been regenerated unto a living hope (1 Pet. 1:3). Our Christ, who is in us, is the hope of glory (Col. 1:27; 1 Tim. 1:1), which will issue in the redemption, the transfiguration, of our body in glory (Rom. 8:23-25). This is the hope of salvation (1 Thes. 5:8), a blessed hope (Titus 2:13), a good hope (2 Thes. 2:16), the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2; 3:7); it is also the hope of the glory of God (Rom. 5:2), the hope of the gospel (Col. 1:23), the hope laid up for us in the heavens (Col. 1:5). We should keep this hope always (1 John 3:3) and boast in it (Rom. 5:2). Our God is the God of hope (Rom. 15:13), and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we can have hope (Rom. 15:4) all the time in God (1 Pet. 1:21) and can rejoice in it (Rom. 12:12). This book charges us to hold fast the boast of hope firm to the end (3:6), to show diligence unto the full assurance of our hope until the end (6:11), and to lay hold of the hope set before us (6:18). It also tells us that the new covenant brings in a better hope, through which we draw near to God (7:19). Our life should be a life of hope, which accompanies and abides with faith (1 Pet. 1:21; 1 Cor. 13:13). We should follow Abraham, who beyond hope believed in hope (Rom. 4:18)." (footnote)

And "the things not seen" are essentially all the things hoped for, which are all related to Christ. In fact, it is right to say that the main thing which is not seen is just our very Christ Himself. Since this is the case, it is right to say that faith is a living that is all the time related to the living out of Christ. So faith is just Christ Himself lived out by the believers. It is the believers cooperating with the Christ in them in complete surrender to His will, that He can be lived out of them.

The believers cannot cooperate with God unless there is a continual cycle of believing into the Son, repenting - turning away from our natural life to walk by the Spirit, and allowing Christ to be lived out and expressed. This is why Paul preached the need to live under the cross daily, and to walk according to the Spirit (Gal. 2:20; 5:13-26).

[HILL]

There is no such thing as Free Will...that is the failure of your analysis.

There is limited will, however our will cannot surpass God's...unless of course you want to be a Diest.

For instance, limited will believes that once be belong to God we can sin and go against His Will, but ultimately He brings us back to it. The flaw in your essay is you assume we have absolute free will....the other flaw is that it puts grace through a meat grinder and then throws it in the trash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No there is no flaw in my post. You just dont understand what I am saying.

We do have free will. You are tring to justify why you believe a certain way. That has been mans problem for a long time. They make the word fit their beliefs instead of changing themselves to fit the word.

Ezekiel 18:24

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be rembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has commited, because of them he shall die.

Do you see that when you turn away from your righteousness, that what you have done will not be rembered? He was righteous and turned away.

From God Himself throught the prophet Ezekiel.

It is as clear as day.

It isnt a free ride and God will help you but He wont do everything for you. Jesus chose Judas. Judas betrayed Him. A man He chose betrayed Him.

If you serve God out of pride or jealously you are not serving God you are serving yourself. God will give you over to the desires of your heart.

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; But to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man a measure of faith.

Matt.25:14-30

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man (God) travelling into a far country, who called his own servants (us), and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, (a measure of faith) to another two

(a measure of faith) and to another one;( a measure of faith) to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Notice that each of them was given talents (faith) according to what they could handle God wont over burden us.

16 Then he that had received five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

He was a doer he did the work of his master not just believed. He increase his faith by works. The works of his master.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

He was a doer too.

18 But he that had received one went and digging in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

He thought he could just hang around and just hold onto what his master gave him he is a hearer. He had faith but did nothing with it.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reconeth with them.

20

And he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents saying, Lord , thou deliveredst unto me five talents behold I have gained beside them five talents more.

Notice what the master says to him.

21 His Lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord.

22He also that had 2 talents came and said, Lord, thou deliverest unto me two talents, behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His Lordsaid unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make the ruler over many things, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord.

It gets interesting here.

24 Then he that received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee to be a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast noy strawed.

25 And I was affraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Look what the master said to this servant who only believed.

26 His Lord answered and said unto him,Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

He should have done something with his faith instead he was to concerned about himself than what his master wanted him to do.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Because he did not do the work of his master his master took away his measure and gave it to another.

29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance, but from him that hath not shall be taken even which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitiable servant into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and nashing of teeth.

I would hate to go there.

Now people say the unprofitable servant never had true faith because people changed what true faith means to justify their beliefs. God guides us by our faith we increase faith by doing what God wants us to do. And if you ignore and be like the unprofitable servant than you will share in his punishment.

He had been given a measure of faith from his master but he did noting with it. He still believed and he thought that was enough.

This parable screams freewill. And so does Ezekiel 18:24 and many other verses.

Gods will always prevails but He will use some one else or use other means.

If you turn from Him it is on you God wants us all to serve Him but He wants us to listen to Him and be obedient.

Explain how grace is put through the meat grinder in my posts.

[apothanein kerdos]

Yet God also hardened Pharoh's heart, chose Judas for the sole purpose to betray Him, and holds back the evilness in this world...thus limited will. There is no such thing as free will just like there is no such thing as absolute fate (total absense of free will). Our will is free to a certain point and is not absolute...thus it is limited.

Your posts put grace through a meat grinder because you make it, "God helps those who help themselves". You are asserting that works do not spring forth from faith, thus works must come from God (which our works are a stench to Him). That destroys the idea of Biblial grace. If you do not understand it then I suggest you study the Bible.

[rob1]

I have been thinking lately about faith, and what it means.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Satan is the father of lies.

God our Father wants us to know the truth, to have the opportunity to choose Him.

(without hearing the truth we would have no chance)

Faith is believing what you have not seen.

If we believe the bible and the testimony of christians that Jesus is the Son of God sent to die on the cross for the sin of the world, then we have faith, because we believe these things without seeing them. (I don't see how a person could get to this point and not put his trust in Christ. In fact it may be impossible.)

In events of time there is only one true account; though there are often many stories and exaggerations and lies.

Faith in a lie is obviously powerless;but,faith in the truth is total freedom(powerful).

(Is this what Jesus meant by moving a mountain with faith?)

Know the truth and the truth will make you free. Faith is not only the key to salvation, but also the key to sanctification, and good works will grow as fruit.

Edited July 3, 2005 by rob1

[rob1]

Mt 21

21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

Lu 17

6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.

Is it possible that Jesus was using figurative speech to show how powerful belief is?

(As a man believes in his heart, so is he.)

Faith is powerful because it determines what we are and what we do.