What is "True Faith"

[HILL]

Mt 21

21 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' it will be done.

Lu 17

6 So the Lord said, "If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you.

Is it possible that Jesus was using figurative speech to show how powerful belief is?

(As a man believes in his heart, so is he.)

Faith is powerful because it determines what we are and what we do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Faith determines how much responsibility God will give you.

Like Abraham.

When he made the covenant with God. God had him kill animals split them in half and seperate them making a path between the halves. Then the two would walk between the halves together.

That was an ancient Chaledean custom. It wasnt something God just made up. That is how they made contracts. We use signatures now.

But part of that contract was who ever broke it would die.

God made the covenant with Abraham that way because God will bring it down to our level that was the best way for God to show Abraham how serious that was.

If Abraham would have broken the covenant with God he would have died.

It was because of his faith that God chose him. Faith is the starting point.

His faith was backed up by works. Not Abrahams works but the work that God had laid down before him to do.

Edited July 3, 2005 by HILL

[Guest shiloh357]

What is "true faith"?

People keep saying that true faith will always produce good works.

Is that true? Does God totally take over and we no longer have free will?

I have only found 1 definition of faith in the bible, so I think that it is the definition of true faith.

True faith defined

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I dont see in that verse were it says works is a by product of faith.

I do know that

Hebrews 11:6

But without faith it is impossible to please Him

for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

Wow a revelation, a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I think people misunderstand us because they think we are saying that works are more important that faith.

I see works as a byproduct of love

I dont see in that verse were it says works is a by product of faith.

That is because the Bible is constructed in such a manner, that not all of the truth on a given subject can be found in one verse. The definition of faith goes far beyond what is written in Heb. 11:1

James teaches in that faith is operative. It is active and doing. Faith is demonstrated by works. He shows the difference between faith and mental assent. Mental assent will acknowledge the truth of a thing, but faith acts on it.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

(James 2:18)

James says in the above verse that faith is demonstrated by works. Works are the outgrowth of faith. You will live what you believe. You cannot help it. Your faith or lack thereof is always demonstrated by what you do.

I see works as a byproduct of love

So why can you not see works as a byproduct of faith? They operate the same according to James 2:15,16.

If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

(James 2:15-16)

A man has girlfriend. She likes chocolates, but he brings her caramels. She likes roses, but he brings her Carnations. She likes gold jewelry, but he brings her silver instead. She likes to eat at a particular restaurant, but he takes her to every restaurant but the one she likes.

Now if this scenario is repeated very often, she will come to the conclusion he does not love her, no matter how much he claims to. This is assuming that he has the power to do what she likes, but chooses to do the opposite. His actions do not demonstrate that he loves her, but rather, that he only wants for himself. If a man truly loves a woman, her wish is command and he will make her happy even to his own hurt.

How is love known? By the actions it produces.

According to James faith operates the same way. Faith is the catalyst for the works that demonstrate it. True love is the catalyst for the works that bear it out as well.

Galations 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision

BUT FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

Tindale renders the last part of that verse as follows:

[Fisher of Men]

We are saying that works will not profit you where your eternal destiny is concerned.

Please read 1 Cor. 6:9 or Rom. 8:13 and tell us that the act of yielding to God and restraining from these things will not profit you where your eternal destiny is concerned.

We are waiting for a response of teachings us how to wrest these scriptures as we have been taught how to wrest the scripture about cold, hot, and lukewarm.

Even in Matt. 25 on the ten virgins we see the same principle; believers who are rejected for not being ready.

Also we are watching for more self contradiction.

[nebula]

Faith determines how much responsibility God will give you.

Like Abraham.

When he made the covenant with God. God had him kill animals split them in half and seperate them making a path between the halves. Then the two would walk between the  halves together.

That was an ancient Chaledean custom. It wasnt something God just made up. That is how they made contracts. We use signatures now.

But part of that contract was who ever broke it would die.

God made the covenant with Abraham that way because God will bring it down to our level that was the best way for God to show Abraham how serious that was.

If Abraham would have broken the covenant with God he would have died.

It was because of his faith that God chose him. Faith is the starting point.

His faith was backed up by works. Not Abrahams works but the work that God had laid down before him to do.

Hey, HILL -

There is a slight problem with this scenario.

Abraham never walked through the two halves.

The Lord made this covenant with Himself.

Re-read the passage, if you don't believe me.

If Abrham had anything to do with the covenant, having Ishmael might have been considered a covenant violation.

But the Lord didn't kill Abraham for that.

[Guest shiloh357]

We are saying that works will not profit you where your eternal destiny is concerned.

Please read 1 Cor. 6:9 or Rom. 8:13 and tell us that the act of yielding to God and restraining from these things will not profit you where your eternal destiny is concerned.

We are waiting for a response of teachings us how to wrest these scriptures as we have been taught how to wrest the scripture about cold, hot, and lukewarm.

Even in Matt. 25 on the ten virgins we see the same principle; believers who are rejected for not being ready.

Also we are watching for more self contradiction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I already answered you about Romans 8:13. I guess you were not paying any attention, so I will repost what I wrote before:

Starting at Romans 8:1...

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(Romans 8:1-2)

We begin by understanding that Paul has been developing a line of thought of which Romans 8 is the final point. From Romans 1:1 to 5:11, Paul is been talking about sins and the blood of Jesus. From Romans 5:12 to the end of Romans 8 Paul is dealing with the sin principle and the power of the cross to deliver us from sin.

That is overlying context, in Romans 8, deliverance from the power of sin, or the Law of Sin and death. Everything Paul is saying must be understood within that context.

In the 1st two verses of chapter 8, we notice that Paul divides the Christian life into two parts, objective and subjective. We are either in Christ or not (objective) and we are either walking in the Spirit or walking in the flesh. Walking in the flesh as it is used here does not mean committing sin. It is has to do with whether a person is saved or not.

If you are in Christ positionally then you are walking after the Spirit. If you are not in Christ, then are walking after the flesh. Paul makes a similar dichotomy in Romans 6. You are either in Adam or In Christ, a servant of sin or servant of righteousness, under the Law or under Grace. These are positional statements and Paul is making a similar dichotomy here. It is also known as "positional justification."

People make the common mistake of taking Paul's statements in this chapter to mean: Walking after the Spirit = doing what is right. Walking after the flesh = committing sin. That is not how Paul is using these terms. Walking after the flesh is another way of saying "under the law" or simply saying that a person is not born again. It is not used here as reference to conduct. As it used in Romans 8, walking after the flesh, or walking after the Spirit has to do with what God sees. If we are not born again, God sees us as under the Law, in Adam, servants of sin, and walking after the flesh.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(Romans 8:3-4)

Paul goes on to say in verses 3 and 4 that the Law is weak through our flesh. The law could not reform our behavior. That is OK, since the Law was not designed to reform our behavior it was designed to show us God's standard of holiness and where we don't measure up. Jesus came to fulfill the righteousness of the Law in us, who are born again (do not walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit). The righteousness of the Law if fulfilled in us, not just when we are living right, but even when we have committed sin. If it only worked when we are on top of the game, what good is it. We need the righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us when we screw up! That is when it has its greatest value. What good is grace to a person who never sins? Grace is for the sinner, the person who stumbles.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(Romans 8:5-8)

Again, those who are in the flesh (the unsaved) mind the things of the flesh, i.e. the things of the world. They are not spiritually minded, even though they may do good things, and live moral lives, they are still carnally minded, according to God. God sees their heart, and it is sinful, irrespective of their conduct. No matter how hard an unsaved person tries they cannot in their flesh please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(Romans 8:9-11)

But we who are born again, are not in the flesh BECAUSE the Spirit of God dwells within us. Our old man is dead because of sin, but we are alive in Christ, through His spirit. We are not alive because we do good deeds, or because we are the most spiritual person in our Church, but because we have been made alive through quickening power of the Holy Spirit who has set us free from sin and death. Likewise, we know that because Jesus was raised from the dead, we shall also be raised by the same Spirit that made us spiritually alive in Christ.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

(Romans 8:12-14)

We are not "debtors" to the flesh. This phrase means that we are not bound or obligated to the flesh, we are no longer slaves to its every whim and desire to fulfill them. We are set free from that which we were bound. We are now "slaves" or "servants" of righteousness. We are in Christ. Our obligation is to God, to serve Him.

If we are to take v. 13 as some have taken it, it would appear that Paul is telling the Romans that they must regenerate themselves. But Paul is talking to a people who are already saved, so that cannot be the sense. Regeneration is 100% the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart that receives Christ by faith. These people are not trying to gain eternal life. They already have eternal life as do all who receive Christ. Eternal life is a present day possession of the believer according John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13. It has been made clear that those who live after the flesh(who are not born again), will die eternally. We are no longer bound to the flesh, and our Spirits are now bound to the Lord. It is by His Spirit that the deeds of our body (flesh) have been mortified. Salvation from beginning to end is of the Lord. He is the author, and He is the finisher.

As for 1 Cor. 6:9...

Here is what it says:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

(1 Corinthians 6:9)

But that is not where Paul's thought ends...

Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

(1 Corinthians 6:10-11)

We who belong to Jesus are not classified as sinners but have been washed, sanctified and justified. Paul is saying that we may have been characterized by those sins at one time, but not now.

Furthermore not ONE person on this board has forwarded the idea that it is OK to live as an adulterer, thief, fornicator, etc. So I don't even see the relavence of such a Scripture.

As for the Parable of the ten virgins. The ten virgins were not ten "Christians." The five foolish virgins were those who are false professors. They are those may claim a belie or mentally assent to the truth, but are not believers. As Barnes correctly asserts, "The conduct of those

[nebula]

The reason we keep butting heads here, IMO, is that we seem to have a confusion between "faith" and "belief".

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

Someone can believe that Jesus is the Son of God, died on the cross for their sin and rose again and ascended into Heaven and all that -

but if that person never follows Jesus, would you say that person has faith?

Of course not!

Now, someone who believes and follows - that person has faith.

Faith requires action.

No action = no faith, no matter what you believe.

Yes, many who confess Christ with their lips do not bear fruit of righteousness, and this is sad. We wonder, are you truly a Christian?

The rich young ruler confessed that Jesus was a "good teacher" - but did he have faith in Jesus?

You see, Jesus challenged him on his use of the word "good" - for no one is good but God. Do you believe I am good? (In other words, Jesus was asking him in a way, "Who do you believe I am?")

Obviously, the rich young ruler did not have faith in Jesus for he turned away.

If he had faith, he would not have turned away.

This is the difference between belief and faith.

Yes, we need to stir each other on to love and good works. Yes, we need to bear fruit.

But if you focus is on "my good works" and "my bearing fruit", then your focus is not on the One who is good and being grafted into the vine that enables you to bear fruit in the first place.

This is the contention.

[Fisher of Men]

People make the common mistake of taking Paul's statements in this chapter to mean: Walking after the Spirit = doing what is right. Walking after the flesh = committing sin. That is not how Paul is using these terms. Walking after the flesh is another way of saying "under the law" or simply saying that a person is not born again. It is not used here as reference to conduct. As it used in Romans 8, walking after the flesh, or walking after the Spirit has to do with what God sees. If we are not born again, God sees us as under the Law, in Adam, servants of sin, and walking after the flesh.

Shiloh, your contradictions are based on wrong definitions. Here we see your wrong definition of walking after the Spirit and walking after the flesh. They do not fit at all with Gal. 5 which clearly reveals that these terms relate to what we actually do and our responsibility to actually do.

Our salvation depends on whether or not we are actually doing, which doing is accomplished by yielding to the Spirit by which we are strengthened so that we can say we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

So now show us how Him literally strengthening us doesn't really mean that, as you have shown that some of Rom. 8 doesn't really mean what it plainly says.

[Guest shiloh357]

People make the common mistake of taking Paul's statements in this chapter to mean: Walking after the Spirit = doing what is right. Walking after the flesh = committing sin. That is not how Paul is using these terms. Walking after the flesh is another way of saying "under the law" or simply saying that a person is not born again. It is not used here as reference to conduct. As it used in Romans 8, walking after the flesh, or walking after the Spirit has to do with what God sees. If we are not born again, God sees us as under the Law, in Adam, servants of sin, and walking after the flesh.

Shiloh, your contradictions are based on wrong definitions. Here we see your wrong definition of walking after the Spirit and walking after the flesh. They do not fit at all with Gal. 5 which clearly reveals that these terms relate to what we actually do and our responsibility to actually do.

Our salvation depends on whether or not we are actually doing, which doing is accomplished by yielding to the Spirit by which we are strengthened so that we can say we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

So now show us how Him literally strengthening us doesn't really mean that, as you have shown that some of Rom. 8 doesn't really mean what it plainly says.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is nothing wrong with my defintions Fisher of Men. Again, you don't pay attention. I was applying those terms as they are used in Romans 8. They are not used the same way in Galatians 5. Galatians chapter 5, deals with different subject matter. It is the context of a passage that determines, in large part, word usage.

Our salvation depends on whether or not we are actually doing, which doing is accomplished by yielding to the Spirit by which we are strengthened so that we can say we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

That is completely false. Our salvation depends entirely on what Christ did on the cross. Salvation is Christ's doing, not ours. You have an incorrect understanding of the relationship of works to justification.

[fenwar]

Hi there Hill,

I think we mis-interpret Hebrews 11.1 if we read it as though it's a dictionary definition of faith. It describes the character of those who have faith in God's promise - they have not seen his plan come to fruition and yet they are faithful to it all the way.

When people talked about the film versions of Lord of the Rings they would ask "how faithful is it to the book"? Peter Jackson could have read the book and then told a very different story in the film - but he tried to stay as close to the plot as he could.

Faith is not just about belief ("reading the book", if you like) but about changing and being changed to conform to what you have heard. If you have faith in God then you want to conform to his likeness - you want to follow Jesus' example of self-sacrificial living.

How faithful are we to that template?

I dont see in that verse were it says works is a by product of faith.

As shiloh357 has mentioned this is the principle James spells out (see James 2). He is closely following Jesus' own line, however - see for example the good Samaritan or the Sheep and the Goats. When the teachers of the Law ask Jesus what the most important commandment is he tells them "love God and love your neighbour" - and his teaching makes it clear that love involves action.

-Fenwar

[HILL]

Faith determines how much responsibility God will give you.

Like Abraham.

When he made the covenant with God. God had him kill animals split them in half and seperate them making a path between the halves. Then the two would walk between the