"unbeliever" seeking clarity on the plan

[apothanein kerdos]

Jesus isn't a victim. 

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Did someone say He was?

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Original post...thanks for pointing that out Ovedya, I completely missed it.

[eric]

He didn't regret making man, the Hebrew word play said that creating man grieved Him...however it is meant to be understood as man's sin grieved God. He knew man would sin (for Him to not would mean that He doesn't know the future), but this didn't make it any easier with His foreknowledge.

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I take your point SJ, maybe regret was a bad choice of words, so Okay He greived, but why should He, if He knew man was going to fall.

Would you plant a tree if you were certain it was only going to die. Maybe God had a pretty good notion that Adam would fall, but it doesn't mean to say that he was sure if it.....does it?

[apothanein kerdos]

He didn't regret making man, the Hebrew word play said that creating man grieved Him...however it is meant to be understood as man's sin grieved God. He knew man would sin (for Him to not would mean that He doesn't know the future), but this didn't make it any easier with His foreknowledge.

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I take your point SJ, maybe regret was a bad choice of words, so Okay He greived, but why should He, if He knew man was going to fall.

Would you plant a tree if you were certain it was only going to die. Maybe God had a pretty good notion that Adam would fall, but it doesn't mean to say that he was sure if it.....does it?

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Well, certain translations have "regret"...so it's okay...although they are translating it wrong.

It's complex to explain why He "grieved". Think of it this way. We, as humans, know that the ones we love will die. We watch a patient that is terminally ill with cancer knowing full well he or she will die. My grandfather knew that my grandmother would die. Yet the pain didn't cease to be when it happened. The grieving still occured. We still grieve, we still feel pain, even though we know it will happen.

Likewise, God knew man would eventually sin, He knew man would turn His back on Him. If He didn't know, then why did He place a tree in the garden that would allow for it? So, He knew what would happen, but this doesn't change the fact that it still hurt Him when it did. Here were these people that He loved, that He had created, turning against Him and rejecting Him completely. So He grieved, he felt pain, for the sin they did even know He knew it would happen.

Hope that makes sense, if not, tell me what part you're having trouble with. I'l admit, it's not an easy concept.

[eric]

You are not wrong SJ it's all a matter of how one applies scripture. For instance the tree. Because we don't know for certain how long Adam was in the garden, did God plant the tree before or after He created, Adam, given that the " days " of creation has not been fully proven whether they were consecutive days as, in twenty four hours, or a period of several years between each day. I hope I'm not sounding confusing, but there many theories, even among very knowledgable scholars, that differ in the time frames concerning the six days. I am merely cogitating. A good thread,

eric.

[Guest Searchy]

SuperJew says:

God created humans, gave them the rule not to eat of the tree, with full knowledge that they would. In essence, God gave them a rule knowing they would break it, He created them knowing they would run away from Him.

God knew it was impossible to follow all 600+ of the commandments.

Excuse this observation but these comments appear to be opinions, are these concepts actually stated or conceptualized somewhere in the Bible? If they are not, then are they your way of trying to explain what God was thinking?

NewPilgrim says:

By being born of a woman and walking the earth as a Man - Jesus - our God demonstrated that it IS possible to live according to the law and not break it, to lead a sinless life, without any special powers or any special advantage, only living completely in faith and obedience to God. (The miracles that Jesus performed he did entirely through faith in God the Father and through the authority of God the Father; Moses did the same, Elijah did the same, Elisha did the same and Jesus says we can do the same.)

Jesus willing death on the cross was an offering to God the Father as a life that was completely sin free and therefore righteous

Sorry but this concept totally looses me, God is Jesus but not really and he turns himself into a man and pretends to not be God but relies on faith in himself, then perfectly fulfils his own law which proves to humans that it can be accomplished, and finally offers himself to himself?

I think these concepts sound like polytheism.

Under Mosaic Law (Old Testament) Because sin (rebelling against God) is such a serious offence and worthy of death, God demands the shedding of blood as an atonement, payment for sins. Break the law, sacrifice an animal. This sacrifice was not for God's benefit, but to demonstrate to the sinner that sin is a terrible terrible and very serious matter and that making a sacrifice from your own belongings, more specifically the best of your own livestock, is an earnest show of an apology. 

This means then that God must punish those who don

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Searchy:

SuperJew says:

God created humans, gave them the rule not to eat of the tree, with full knowledge that they would. In essence, God gave them a rule knowing they would break it, He created them knowing they would run away from Him.

God knew it was impossible to follow all 600+ of the commandments.

Excuse this observation but these comments appear to be opinions, are these concepts actually stated or conceptualized somewhere in the Bible? If they are not, then are they your way of trying to explain what God was thinking?

God created humans:

Gen1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

He gave us one rule:

Gen 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God has foreknowledge: (and so he knew we would break that rule)

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending [he is infinite, limitless unbound], saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God has demonstrated this foreknowledge by prophecying events which have come to fruition and some which are still to happen, you may even see them for yourself.

God knew it was impossible to follow all 600+ of the commandments:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

(breaking any of Gods laws is sin, if no one can say he has no sin, then no one can say he has kept every law.)

Sorry but this concept totally looses me, God is Jesus but not really and he turns himself into a man and pretends to not be God but relies on faith in himself, then perfectly fulfils his own law which proves to humans that it can be accomplished, and finally offers himself to himself?

You're almost there:

The Nature of God is trinity. If you can understand the nature of an atom (Nucleus, proton, electron) or of H2O (solid, liquid, gas), you can just about understand the nature of God.

God is ONE God, his nature is tri-une. He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each is the same God, fully God and yet each is different. Its a stumbling block for many because they don't understand it. You can't teach a frog the nature of a kettle, likewise we have limitations under God.

Jesus IS God, in the flesh. rather than just "appearing" as a man. He chose to enter the world the same way that we do, so as not to have any distinct advantage on us. God manifest in the flesh (Jesus) is known as the Son of God, because he was not conceived by a human male.

God is omnipresent, everywhere. he is present both in spirit and in flesh (Jesus).

Jesus who was quite entitled, as the Son of God, to use his OWN power and authority on earth, chose not to, but inbstead he set an example to us by using the power and authority of God the Father through obedience, faithfulness and prayer. God will grant power and authority to all those who are obedient, faithful and prayerful and thats what Jesus showed us by the way he lived.

Jesus proved by his sinless life, that while no-one before or after HIM has ever kept all 600+ commandments, it is not impossible. He did it, with the same limitations as you or I. And because he has done this AND sacrificed his life to pay for our sin, he is fit to judge and no one will be able to call him unfit when their judgement comes.

This means then that God must punish those who don

[Smalcald]

Wow.

I would just say that knowing the details of the "plan" is not a necessity of salvation. Loving Jesus believing that He will and has the power to rescue us from sin and the power of sin, which is death, and acting on that faith, this is enough.

No one really knows the mind of God, no one really knows the why of God's actions, beyond the fact that God loves us and wants to save us.

I think putting these pieces together is indeed interesting and can sometimes strengthen our faith. But in the end, our knowledge of these things is totally irrelevant to our salvation and relationship with God.

[Guest Titus]

AMEN. Debate on scripture will always be.....but the bottom line is admitting we have sin, believing Jesus died for us, and accepting Him as our Savior. We DO NOT know the mind of God but if we believe what Jesus said, we don't have to be able to interpret scripture. That's FAITH. AMEN Smalcald. Great post.

Wow.

I would just say that knowing the details of the "plan" is not a necessity of salvation. Loving Jesus believing that He will and has the power to rescue us from sin and the power of sin, which is death, and acting on that faith, this is enough.

No one really knows the mind of God, no one really knows the why of God's actions, beyond the fact that God loves us and wants to save us. 

I think putting these pieces together is indeed interesting and can sometimes strengthen our faith. But in the end, our knowledge of these things is totally irrelevant to our salvation and relationship with God.

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[Atalyah]

Atalyah, thanks for the direct answers, your responses are much easier for me to understand.

You're welcome Let me say right off the start though, there's going to be people that disagree with me, but I can only call it as I see it.

I do have a couple questions though you said:

Edited July 5, 2005 by Atalyah

[eric]

AMEN.  Debate on scripture will always be.....but the bottom line is admitting we have sin, believing Jesus died for us, and accepting Him as our Savior.  We DO NOT know the mind of God but if we believe what Jesus said, we don't have to be able to interpret scripture.  That's FAITH.  AMEN Smalcald.  Great post.

Wow.

I would just say that knowing the details of the "plan" is not a necessity of salvation. Loving Jesus believing that He will and has the power to rescue us from sin and the power of sin, which is death, and acting on that faith, this is enough.

No one really knows the mind of God, no one really knows the why of God's actions, beyond the fact that God loves us and wants to save us.