1 JOHN ONLY ISRAEL CAN BE BORN AGAIN

[Marilyn C]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2020 at 1:08 AM, douge said:

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is the nation of Israel that must be born again. It is not accurate to say members of the body of Christ, in this dispensation, are born again; in all of Paul's epistles being born again is never applied to members of the body of Christ.

Hi douge,

So let`s look a bit closer at this great topic.

"That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"Do not marvel, that I (Jesus) said to you, "You must be born again." (John 3: 6 & 7)

So we can see what Jesus is meaning by looking at verse 6. It is by the Holy Spirit that any one is `born again,` meaning spiritually regenerated.

Now let`s apply that to Israel and the Body of Christ.

ISRAEL

They were promised two inheritances.

1) The Old Testament Saints by the Holy Spirit, believed God for the promise of the city. (Heb. 11:16) and that was accounted to them as righteousness.

2) The Jews at Christ`s return, believe by the Holy Spirit that He is their Messiah and that they will rule over the nations. (Zech. 12: 10)

THE BODY OF CHRIST

They are given the divine nature of Christ, by the Holy Spirit and are made like Christ. Their inheritance is in the third heaven ruling with Christ. (2 Peter 1: 4,  Rom. 8: 29,  Rev. 3: 21) 

[Retrobyter]

20 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

I disagree. Outside of Christ lies slavery to sin and eternal judgment. To Jew and to Gentile.

Shalom, charisenexcelsis.

Sure you do, but you are a slave to a dichotomistic view! The "all or nothing" principle is not right. There are MANY who shall become a part of the Messiah's Kingdom during the Millennium, primarily the children of Israel to whom came the promises, but also all those who are adopted into His family by faith and many nations who have treated His people well!

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi douge,

So let`s look a bit closer at this great topic.

"That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"Do not marvel, that I (Jesus) said to you, "You must be born again." (John 3: 6 & 7)

So we can see what Jesus is meaning by looking at verse 6. It is by the Holy Spirit that any one is `born again,` meaning spiritually regenerated.

Now let`s apply that to Israel and the Body of Christ.

ISRAEL

They were promised two inheritances.

1) The Old Testament Saints by the Holy Spirit, believed God for the promise of the city. (Heb. 11:16) and that was accounted to them as righteousness.

2) The Jews at Christ`s return, believe by the Holy Spirit that He is their Messiah and that they will rule over the nations. (Zech. 12: 10)

THE BODY OF CHRIST

They are given the divine nature of Christ, by the Holy Spirit and are made like Christ. Their inheritance is in the third heaven ruling with Christ. (2 Peter 1: 4,  Rom. 8: 29,  Rev. 3: 21) 

Shalom, Marilyn.

Well, you're not wrong, per se, but you have a misconception of what constitutes the "third heaven."

You really need to understand this from Kefa's ("Peter's") point of view:

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God... 

(1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

(Flood) 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

7 (2) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 (3) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter tells us that this "third heaven" is the skies that are third CHRONOLOGICALLY, NOT SPATIALLY! That is, the skies and the earth before the Flood were the "first heaven"; the skies and the earth that are now, between the Flood and the Fire, are the "second heaven," and we are looking forward to - anticipating - the "third heaven" which are the skies and the earth wherein dwell righteousness, and upon which the New Jerusalem shall land!

It's NOT ...

3rd heaven (God's abode)
(up)
2nd heaven (of stars)
(up)
1st heaven (of clouds),

(as it's described in the Scofield Reference Bible).

It's ...

1st heaven -> (Flood) -> 2nd heaven -> (Fire) -> 3rd heaven

(which correlates to the New Heaven and the New Earth, wherein dwells righteousness) AS TIME PASSES!

The thing you must understand, though, is that the Kingdom of God through His Messiah, Yeshua`, shall begin in the "2nd heaven," for the Day of the Lord is at the END of the Millennium, which is the last 1,000 years BEFORE the Fire.

Then comes the End when the Messiah shall turn over the Kingdom to His Father that God may be all in all, and THEN comes the "Eternal State" when the New Earth and its New Sky (its New Atmosphere) are re-formed and the New Jerusalem descends to its surface.

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, charisenexcelsis said:

No one is saved outside of Christ. So, in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile--salvation by the same means. Outside Christ there is only slavery to sin and eternal judgement.

Not so fast. Now we know that it is because of Christ that anyone can be saved, however NOT all people have the opportunity to know of Christ. Think of all the people in bygone centuries, say in deepest darkest Africa, they didn`t know of Christ.

God tells us that those people will get judged by their `works.` That means how they lived according to their conscience. All know what is right and wrong and that is what they will be judged on. (Rev. 20: 11 - 15)

The Old testament Saints didn`t know of Christ as we do, however they obtain righteousness by believing in what God has promised them. (Heb. 11:  16)

The Body of Christ has the wonderful promise of being made like unto Christ, and we will go to rule with Him in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

Then there are those in Israel who will receive their Messiah when He comes to deliver them. They will go on to rule the nations of the world in the millennium and beyond. (Zech. 12: 10)

God has great purpose and all through Christ. 

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

Even those who do not know his name are saved by grace, through faith, not works. That is the salvation which was purchased by the sacrifice of Jesus, slain from the foundation of the world.

All are saved BECAUSE of Jesus BUT all do NOT know of Jesus.

So do all those who never heard of Jesus go to hell?

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

No. they can be saved by faith. But they cannot be saved by works.

Faith in what, who? They don`t know of Jesus.

[Marilyn C]

29 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

Faith in God. If they could be saved by works, there would be no need for the work of Jesus.

Good. I agree on both counts.

Now how is their `faith in God` shown? (Note these are people who have never heard of Jesus.)

[Marilyn C]

31 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

In the same way ours is shown--hope and love. I am not arguing that they will not do good works, nor that we need not. Only that there is only one Covenant of salvation.

Actually those who do not know of Jesus will need to have `faith` in God as revealed to them by their conscience and by observing creation. Yes, they need to show this by `good works` of doing the right thing.

We, the Body of Christ will be judged for rewards (Bema seat of Christ), on what we have done under the guidance and anointing of the Holy Spirit. No flesh will glory.

 

[Marilyn C]

14 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

I do not believe that we truly differ in anything but our wording.

 Thanks for the discussion.

[Retrobyter]

7 minutes ago, charisenexcelsis said:

In the same way ours is shown--hope and love. I am not arguing that they will not do good works, nor that we need not. Only that there is only one Covenant of salvation.

Shalom, charisenexcelsis.

Well, bro', first of all, "salvation" is the wrong word. "Salvation" in prophecy is about God's RESCUE of His own people, the children of Israel, specifically when Yeshua` comes again. The word you SHOULD be using is "JUSTIFICATION," namely, "justification of an individual by GOD!"

Good works are, well, ... good! However, a person must understand that he or she can NEVER do ENOUGH that will satisfy a PERFECTLY RIGHTEOUS God, YHWH, no matter how many good works one does, and one must come to the end of oneself and fall upon the mercy of that perfectly righteous God to step in and do for one what only HE can do.

And, ironically, when one is justified by God, it will be His Spirit that does the good works THROUGH that person as a RESULT of God's justification of that person!

Now, we know that justification is possible because of the sacrifice that Yeshua` the Messiah made for all on the cross, but can that justification extend to those who don't know of the sacrifice that Yeshua` the Messiah made?

I contend that it CAN and that it HAS in the past! That's why the animal sacrifices that were made by all the ancestors of the children of Israel and by the children of Israel themselves were EFFICACIOUS as PICTURES of the sacrifice the Messiah would make! As you said, Yeshua` was "slain from the foundation of the world."

Therefore, I believe that people who have NEVER known about the Messiah Yeshua` can still be justified by God IF they come to an end of themselves and humbly fall upon the mercy of an all-powerful God.