omega2xx Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 447 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) On 2/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, one.opinion said: "Intelligent Design" (or ID) is a common term as Christians discuss the complexity of life we see today. I share a lot of common sentiment with the supporters of ID. First, most of them are genuine Christ-followers like I am, and believe that all creation is due to His will and for His pleasure. We (ID supporters and I) also believe that the universe and living things we can observe today are better explained by a Creator and His actions through naturalistic processes He set into place than in naturalistic processes operating on their own. The Discovery Institute (the most prominent organization devoted to the study and promotion of ID) defines Intelligent Design as this: There is one thing I like and a few things I dislike about this definition. First, I 100% agree that the features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause. Now on to some of the things I disagree with. * I understand it is for political reasons, but I do like to state that the "intelligent cause" is Jesus Christ, my Savior and Lord, rather than leave that "cause" so vague. * I also object a bit to the use of "theory" in this context. In scientific terms, a theory must be testable and supported by positive evidence. Bio-Complexity, a scientific journal occasionally published by the DI (Discovery Institute - I know... too many "D"s and "I"s...) does not publish any research that supports an "intelligent cause", but merely publishes results that argue against naturalistic evolution. This does not qualify ID as any sort of theory by standard scientific use of the term. * The focus of this definition starts with "features of the universe and living things", but abruptly shifts to focus solely on natural selection. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with taking down "Darwinian natural selection", as if the scientific understanding of evolution has not advanced in the last 150 years. Among the prominent ID figures, like Michael Behe and Stephen Meyer, there seems to be much less interest in the "universe" than there is for the inadequacies of "natural selection". Overall, I find myself sympathetic to ID in concept. For example, I find it more plausible to accept God's direct creation of the first living cells than than to accept random chemical evolution that eventually developed into living organisms. However, I disagree with how ID is actually presented, such as the focus on arguing against "natural selection" and what I perceive as the lack of engagement with recent scientific findings. @Starman @The Barbarian, what are your thoughts? The evolutionist also need to have an answer for the origin of the chemicals they claimed are the origin of life. They would have us believe they just popped in to the universe and nothing was their origin. Evolution is one of he most absurd ideas man has come up with and it certainly is not based on real science. Evolution has no answer for what is he origin of life. How can nothing be the origin of something? What are the finding that support natural selection? Just another unscientific invention of the evolutionists. Edited March 20, 2020 by omega2xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted March 20, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 20, 2020 13 minutes ago, omega2xx said: The evolutionist also need to have an answer for the origin of the chemicals they claimed are the origin of life. They would have us believe they just popped in to the universe and nothing was their origin. Evolution is one of he most absurd ideas man has come up with and it certainly is not based on real science. Evolution has no answer for what is he origin of life. How can nothing be the origin of something? What are the finding that support natural selection? Just another unscientific invention of the evolutionists. This is not relevant to this thread. Please post on the "Theistic Evolution" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 25, 2020 On 2/25/2020 at 9:10 AM, one.opinion said: "Intelligent Design" (or ID) is a common term as Christians discuss the complexity of life we see today. I share a lot of common sentiment with the supporters of ID. First, most of them are genuine Christ-followers like I am, and believe that all creation is due to His will and for His pleasure. We (ID supporters and I) also believe that the universe and living things we can observe today are better explained by a Creator and His actions through naturalistic processes He set into place than in naturalistic processes operating on their own. The Discovery Institute (the most prominent organization devoted to the study and promotion of ID) defines Intelligent Design as this: There is one thing I like and a few things I dislike about this definition. First, I 100% agree that the features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause. Now on to some of the things I disagree with. * I understand it is for political reasons, but I do like to state that the "intelligent cause" is Jesus Christ, my Savior and Lord, rather than leave that "cause" so vague. * I also object a bit to the use of "theory" in this context. In scientific terms, a theory must be testable and supported by positive evidence. Bio-Complexity, a scientific journal occasionally published by the DI (Discovery Institute - I know... too many "D"s and "I"s...) does not publish any research that supports an "intelligent cause", but merely publishes results that argue against naturalistic evolution. This does not qualify ID as any sort of theory by standard scientific use of the term. * The focus of this definition starts with "features of the universe and living things", but abruptly shifts to focus solely on natural selection. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with taking down "Darwinian natural selection", as if the scientific understanding of evolution has not advanced in the last 150 years. Among the prominent ID figures, like Michael Behe and Stephen Meyer, there seems to be much less interest in the "universe" than there is for the inadequacies of "natural selection". Overall, I find myself sympathetic to ID in concept. For example, I find it more plausible to accept God's direct creation of the first living cells than than to accept random chemical evolution that eventually developed into living organisms. However, I disagree with how ID is actually presented, such as the focus on arguing against "natural selection" and what I perceive as the lack of engagement with recent scientific findings. @Starman @The Barbarian, what are your thoughts? Hi one.opinion, The problem that Christians have with Gen 1 is looking at the creation story through "modern eyes". ------ The creation story was written by Moses (assuming), and the creation, and science were viewed differently. In Moses' time there were only 4 elements, air, water, earth, and fire. The creation story shows the creation of those elements. Light was not considered an element because it has no substance. (firm, firmament) ------ The author is removed from the actual events by time and the earth changing event of the flood. The creation of the elements story was likely passed down from generation to generation through the Israelite nation, or there may have been some influence by Moses' education as a prince of Egypt. The story would have perfect sense to the people of Moses' day. It doesn't say exactly how God created the elements. By His words, yes, but how His words became material elements, no. --------- Christians today have a hard time reconciling the creation story as that of the 4 elements with modern science. It does not prove the Bible wrong if the creation story is looked at as the creation of the 4 elements. But it does show that the story cannot be taken literally. If you try to take it literally, then you are proving the Bible wrong. That is, modern science is mostly correct about the creation of the universe. The element creation story of the Bible does not match up exactly with what we know now. It doesn't mean the Bible is wrong, it just means that the people who try to make it literal will never get it reconciled. You won't win souls to Jesus by saying it must be literal. Just be up front and honest that it is not literal. The truth is more important. ------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one.opinion Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,240 Content Per Day: 2.10 Reputation: 1,356 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/03/2017 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 25, 2020 10 hours ago, abcdef said: It doesn't mean the Bible is wrong, it just means that the people who try to make it literal will never get it reconciled. I also believe that a strictly literal interpretation of Genesis is inconsistent with the evidence God has made available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 25, 2020 1 hour ago, one.opinion said: I also believe that a strictly literal interpretation of Genesis is inconsistent with the evidence God has made available. Hi one.opinion, In discussing the creation story (Gen. 1), when we waste a lot of time trying to distort the symbolic into a literal framework we are missing the greater truths to be found there. The story is really showing the transition of the spirit "world", into the material world. See that the story begins with 2 places, where God is, and where God is not. You are either with God, or not with God. If you were not with God, you were in the place called "the deep". You can see the deep if you go outside and look up at the night sky. Of course now it is filled with stars and such, but before any of this material universe was created it was empty, the great empty, the VOID. When you would look down from God's t throne you would see the deep. The face of the deep is what you would see. It would be dark, empty, and seemingly without end. Normally, the face of the deep would be undisturbed, where God is and where God is not, but the Spirit moves on the face of the deep, like a wind (John 3:8), and like water mixes with air, the area where God is, and where God is not, is disturbed. This is where the material world is created, in a place where God is and where God is not. ------ With God..........................Satan, The void, where God is not Good..................................Evil Love...................................No love, empty, Void of love Reason.............................No reason, confusion, chaos, beast Light................................No light, complete darkness Giving...............................Taking Mercy...............................No mercy God is above all...............Ego, self is above all This theme is carried out through the creation story and the rest of the Bible. When God stirred the face of the deep, the area was like waves of waters that mix with air, then they separate. Mixing and separating at the same time. Then see how God creates a universe where the things of creation are coming together and separating at the same time. The waters and the air, waves mixing the 2 together then separating. The waves crashing onto the shore of the earth, mixing and separating. All with the object of creating the human souls. -------- Now within man, are all the elements. Air we breath, mixing with us, then separating. Water we drink, mixing and separating. Food we eat, earth, mixing and separating. Fire inside us, warmth, we stand next to the fire, then we lose heat, fire. Also in the spirit, we live in a world where there is good and evil, mixing and separating. As we live our our lives we cling to what is good, but evil tempts us. -------- Soon, we will be with Jesus. There will come a time after the judgment, when we will never see the darkness of the void again, no more will we see the darkness of outer space. That will be the time of the new heavens and the new earth. ------------- 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,229 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,485 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 25, 2020 1 hour ago, abcdef said: This is where the material world is created, in a place where God is and where God is not. God's Word teaches us there is no place God is not? Ps 139:7-17 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,229 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,485 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted March 25, 2020 14 hours ago, abcdef said: Christians today have a hard time reconciling the creation story as that of the 4 elements with modern science. It does not prove the Bible wrong if the creation story is looked at as the creation of the 4 elements. But it does show that the story cannot be taken literally. How sad for you... even when the Bible says to take it literally you do not .... Ex 31:15-17 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, enoob57 said: How sad for you... even when the Bible says to take it literally you do not .... Ex 31:15-17 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. KJV Hi enoob57, And of course you know that when the Bible says "day", it doesn't always mean a literal 24 hour day, right? The day of salvation has lasted 100's of years. 2 Cor 6:2 The day of temptation in the wilderness lasted 40 years. Heb 3:8-9 The day of Judgement, just one 24 hour day? The 7 days are the same way, not literal, but symbolic showing Jesus in the creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 25, 2020 37 minutes ago, enoob57 said: How sad for you... even when the Bible says to take it literally you do not .... Ex 31:15-17 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. KJV You said that the Bible says to take the creation story literally, that the creation days are supposed to be 24 hour days only. Show me the scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcdef Posted March 25, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,405 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 135 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/14/1951 Share Posted March 25, 2020 1 hour ago, enoob57 said: God's Word teaches us there is no place God is not? Ps 139:7-17 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. 13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! KJV This scripture states that God is in certain places, heaven, hell, sea, where there is no place that man can escape the presence of God, for now. But it does not say that there isn't a place where God is not, as you want it to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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