A Title Suggestion for the Seven Sealed Book

[Dennis1209]

On 3/1/2020 at 8:24 PM, not an echo said:

I would like to propose that the book sealed with seven seals could rightly be entitled, THE DAY OF THE LORD.

Every book has a title.  And granted, this book could rightly be entitled THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK.  But, when titled as I am suggesting, I believe you will find this to be of great value in understanding The Revelation, for the Day of the Lord is what this book is all about.

Is it possible the seven sealed book is the "title deed" to earth and everything that exists that God created?

It appears the little book John was instructed to eat, sounds a lot like the book of Daniel for many reasons.

Revelation 10:9 (KJV) And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Is it possible the seven sealed book is the "title deed" to earth and everything that exists that God created?

It appears the little book John was instructed to eat, sounds a lot like the book of Daniel for many reasons.

Revelation 10:9 (KJV) And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Good thoughts, Dennis1209. It intrigues me how whilst being in the spirit John is able to function as he would in his body, weeping, eating, tasting etc.

[not an echo]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 3/24/2020 at 11:08 AM, not an echo said:

Strange, if one only sees it as you are seeing it Diaste.  I see the vast assembly that came out of great tribulation in Rev 7 as being the Church, which, from a worldwide and historical perspective, has indeed experienced great tribulation.  Even the early Church was warned to expect such (e.g., Acts 14:21-22 and I Pet. 4:12-13), and did.  As I have said, how much more severe would the tribulation have to be in the days that Christians were fed to lions or burned at the stake for such to be considered great tribulation?  Just because the Church in our United States has not been subjected to such great tribulation (relatively speaking), such is and has been the case for the Church from a worldwide and historical perspective since the days of the apostles.  The words great tribulation are from megas thlipsis.  Stephen used these same words, translated "great affliction,"  when he described what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days that Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn (Acts 7:11ff)!  My point is, there is a major difference between going through great tribulation and going through Daniel's 70th Week.  As I see it, the great multitude that John saw in Rev 7 is the Church, which has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through!

From another angle, let's suppose that the "great tribulation" of Rev. 7:14 is in reference to Daniel's 70th Week, and it may be.  Even this doesn't necessarily mean that the Church has gone through Daniel's 70th Week, as the Church will "escape" before the beginning of the Day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-4ff), a period which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  For example, the NIV reads, "These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).  What does it take to "come out of" something?  Of course, it could be said that you would have to be in something before you could come out of it.  But, you can also come out of something in the sense of having escaped it.  Let me illustrate with a narrative that I believe everyone in America can relate to:

For a moment, picture yourself sitting in the coffee shop on the ground floor of the North Tower of the World Trade Center on the morning of September 11, 2001.  You are sipping on your first cup of coffee for the day with some of your co-workers when all of a sudden there is this strange noise, and you feel a shaking sensation.  "What was that?" you exclaim!  Someone remarks that it might have been an earthquake.  There is a stir of curiosity.  In another second, an alarm goes off.  Next thing you know, someone is running by screaming something about an explosion happening in the top of the tower.  Near an exit, you rush outside where everyone is looking up, and you pick out something being said about a jet airliner crashing into the tower.  You keep backing up, looking up, completely awestruck that such a catastrophe is unfolding right before your very eyes.  Everything is in a complete frenzy, debris is falling all around, and there is a great plume of smoke bellowing into the sky.  Everyone is scrambling to get out of the building and from harm's way, and you end up one of the fortunate ones.  When the day is done, you end up being in the number of those who have come out of the great disaster in New York.  And, in what sense have you come out of it?  In the sense of having escaped it.  No one will deny you that!  Moreover, I venture any classroom or church in America would be interested in hearing your personal story.

All of the foregoing reflects thoughts that I have long had concerning the great multitude John saw after the 6th Seal was opened.  Whether the Church has finally "came out of" what it has so long been through (great tribulation/KJV), or, escaped it (the great tribulation/NIV), it is easy for me to see this as being the gathered Church in Heaven.  There are just too many prophetic points of convergence at the 6th Seal for me to see otherwise.  I hope you are "seeing" what I mean.

In regard to the assembly in Rev 15, these are those who have indeed experienced the tribulation of Daniel's 7oth Week.  But, according to many evidences, whereas the great multitude of Rev 7 will be a harvest, the assembly of Rev 15 will be in the category of gleanings.  Not a "vast assembly" like the Church.

Got to go...

I understand.

Your story is missing the entire body of evidence from Matt 24. The main problem with 'great tribulation' as two millennia in duration is that time period is sandwiched between the A of D and the return of Jesus; and both those events occur in the sight of the population of the earth alive at the time. 

What is at issue isn't whether some people over time in certain parts of the world experienced great affliction or pressure, that has certainly been the case too many times to count; the issue is when this 'great tribulation' occurs. It not only must occur near the time of the 2nd coming but also in the sight of those who witnessed the A of D that is related to the end of the age. Also this 'great tribulation' must be,

21) "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." - Matt 24

Literally no other period of enormous pressure can be merged into Matt 24 as this one particular 'great tribulation' is different than any other.

Based on these two truths which are ignored by many the 2000 years since Jesus ascended does not qualify as the 'great tribulation' in the Gospels as related to the end of the age.

Hello Diaste,

If I am understanding you correctly, the way it seems, you are taking the whole of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, or at least the opening of it through Christ's Second Coming, as being part of Daniel's 70th Week.  If that is the case, the 2000 years would certainly be a problem.  On the other hand, if that is the case, what were our first century brothers and sisters in Christ supposed to think when the things Jesus spoke of in His opening began to come to pass?  And what about those of the second century?  And those of the third, fourth, and fifth through---------------our present century?  Knowing what we now know, did the opening of Jesus' discourse have real relevance for them, or for us, or is it really only for that generation that will see the things Jesus spoke of happen IN CONJUNCTION WITH the manifestation of the A of D?

The way I see it, if I had lived in the second century and found myself reading the opening section of Jesus' discourse, I would have thought, "Jesus sure knew what He was talking about!"  Same if it had been the fourth.  Same if it had been the ninth.  Same if it had been the sixteenth.  And, it is the same---for me---this 25 day of March, 2020.  Hmmm...

Making The Revelation connection, we also have the oft made parallels between the first part of Jesus' discourse and the first four seals.  In tune with the opening three verses of The Revelation, would not our first century brothers and sisters in Christ have had good reason to wonder what was at hand to begin to come to pass?  Knowing what we know now, after 2000 years, did all these things really have relevance then?  I certainly think so!!!  And also for our third century brothers and sisters, and those of every century, and decade, and year, and month, and day---even until this very day!  When I consider what I see to be the first section of Jesus' discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:5-14), I marvel that it is so very relevant to any little nook and cranny of time that a Christian may have found himself or herself in during the Christian era.

Did you notice?  I found a way to say what I said without saying "the Church Age."  Oops!    

[not an echo]

On 3/25/2020 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/22/2020 at 2:23 PM, not an echo said:

But Diaste, you are seeing (and equating) the opening of the first four seals with God's wrath---I am not.  

Actually I am not. I'm impressed that you do not either. I'm sure I said in earlier posts that the wrath of the One who sits on the throne and the Lamb is heralded at the 6th seal and commences with the 7th trump. That was my argument for the concurrent/successive nature of the seals/trumps and against the strict chronology of seals/trumps/vials.

Hey, my apologies Diaste, I believe I meant to say "with Daniel's 70th Week," not "with God's wrath."  My bad.

On 3/25/2020 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

Dispensationalism is monkey wrench in the great mechanism of truth. You really should examine this in depth.

Well, I'm having trouble trying to get my post, to which you made this reply, to paste correctly, as the previous one did.  I guess I'm doing something wrong.  Of my post, it would only indicate "quote" without giving date and myself as the origin of the quote.

Annnyway, I guess I'm going to have to use a phrase besides "the Church Age" for my correspondence, because if I don't, I believe you will only see me as being steeped in dispensationalism, which I'm not.  While I have considered this subject in the past, it's kinda in the category of something that I moved past.  Maybe it's time for me to look at it afresh, but I'm not really drawn to it.  Concerning the phrase "the Church Age",  it seems to me to be quite apparent that what has come to be called "the Church Age" got its start on the Day of Pentecost, and it is an era that has continued until the present.  But, I am fine calling the day in which we live "the era of the Church" or "the Christian era" or "the day of the New Testament",  etc.  Whatever one might find more palatable, I certainly believe that there is going to be a rapture of the Church, and all the points of convergence relating to it come together at the 6th Seal (and its related interlude/Rev. 7).  And then the last, or 7th Seal will be opened.  A place we really disagree concerns the sounding of the seven trumpets.  I see them as being part of the CONTENTS of the book, something that cannot be beheld until the covers are opened---which requires the removing of that last, or 7th Seal...IMHO.  But, I do somewhat understand where you are coming from.

On 3/25/2020 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

  On 3/22/2020 at 1:23 PM, not an echo said:

From a worldwide and historical perspective, could it be said of God's children of the Church Age when gathered together in glory, "These are they which came out of great tribulation"?  I believe so!  However, while Christ's Bride has experienced great tribulation, She will not experience any of Daniel's 70th Week.

Whether you are able to agree with me Diaste, I hope you are able to see more clearly where I am coming from.  

On 3/25/2020 at 5:40 AM, Diaste said:

Yes, "It could be said..." A lot of things could be said. That's the definition of speculation. 

Now Diaste, I believe it could be said that you are not being fair with me here 

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/25/2020 at 2:04 PM, Dennis1209 said:

On 3/1/2020 at 8:24 PM, not an echo said:

I would like to propose that the book sealed with seven seals could rightly be entitled, THE DAY OF THE LORD.

Every book has a title.  And granted, this book could rightly be entitled THE SEVEN SEALED BOOK.  But, when titled as I am suggesting, I believe you will find this to be of great value in understanding The Revelation, for the Day of the Lord is what this book is all about.

Is it possible the seven sealed book is the "title deed" to earth and everything that exists that God created?

It appears the little book John was instructed to eat, sounds a lot like the book of Daniel for many reasons.

Revelation 10:9 (KJV) And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

Hello again Dennis.  And again, apologies for not having responded to you earlier.

Though I have certainly heard some refer to the Seven Sealed Book as the "title deed" to the earth, thinking in these terms has just never did as much for my understanding as thinking of it being entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  Just a little sidebar:  Try to imagine each page in this book as representing one year of time.  Whereas seven pages would represent the Antichrist's rule during the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week, Christ's Millennial Reign would be represented by a thousand pages! This shows the time of the Antichrist's rule as being merely "a drop in the bucket," occurring in the transition time between the last day of the Church upon the earth and the day that Christ returns to reign.  The time of the Antichrist's rule is really short-lived, for it falls between the days just mentioned, both literally and utterly.  When Christ makes the scene for every eye to see, the battle for supremacy will be no contest, and long will be the rule of the true King of kings, and Lord of lords!

Concerning the "little book open" that John was instructed to eat being the book of Daniel, I certainly agree with you!  As I see it, chief among the reasons are these three:

#1---What Daniel was told in the last chapter of his little book (Dan. 12:4, 8-10)!

#2---That the first evidences in The Revelation that Daniel's 70th Week has indeed begun are found in the opening verses following this "little book" being NOW OPEN.  Of course, the most apparent evidences are the two 3-1/2 year time periods shown in Revelation 11:2-3, the sum of which I see as being Daniel's 70th Week, or what many refer to as the Seven Year Tribulation Period.

#3---A not so apparent evidence is Revelation 11:1.  Concerning the start of Daniel's 70th Week, the seven year covenant that the Antichrist is prophesied to make with Israel (Dan. 9:27) is accepted to be the event that will mark this time.  It could be rightly be supposed that there would be some evidence of this in The Revelation, either occurring or having occurred.  Well, I believe there is.  Look with me at the opening verse of chapter 11:

  1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and THEM THAT WORSHIP therein.

A couple of things in this verse really need to be noted.  One, "the temple of God" is in existence here.  As I see it, if the rapture were to occur today, it is not necessary that the Antichrist confirm his infamous covenant with Israel tomorrow, but he will begin his rise to power.  Likewise, if the rapture were to occur today (March 28, 2020), we know that the temple will not be in existence tomorrow, but the rebuilding of it will soon begin.  Perhaps the temple will be rebuilt before the rapture, but I'm inclined to doubt it.  If not, it will be rebuilt soon afterwards.  Secondly, "worship" is occurring in the temple of God.  I submit, however, that the worship occurring at this time is not worship of Almighty God.  Just because the account says this is the temple of God, this doesn't mean it is God who is being worshiped.  Let us see if the Light of Scripture can help us to here understand Scripture a little more clearly.  Consider Paul's words in the following verses from II Thessalonians 2:

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

  4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is WORSHIPPED;  so that he AS GOD sitteth in THE TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself THAT HE IS GOD.

I believe the worship taking place in Revelation 11:1 is towards that "man of sin...the son of perdition" of whom Paul writes, better known as the Antichrist.  This is that "prince that shall come,"  spoken of in Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks (Dan. 9:27).  Also, Jesus had something to say concerning this.  In Matthew 24 we read:

  15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth let him understand:)

  16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...

That part in parenthesis, "(whoso readeth let him understand:)",  relates to the little book of Daniel.  In other words, whoever reads the little book of Daniel, "let him understand."

One more thing Dennis, before I sign off.  You noted Revelation 10:9.  It seems that Daniel experienced similar to John when he received some of the revelations that he recorded in the little book that bears his name.  His first was a vision that interpreted a dream King Nebuchadnezzar had (Dan. 2:1-13), a revelation Daniel received with great joy (Dan. 2:19-23).  But, some visions he later received himself, which expounded further upon the king's dream (chps. 7-8) caused him to become sickly (Dan. 7:15, 28, and 8:27).  Needless to say, the ending of this present world order will be a bitter/sweet thing.

Hey, hope you and yours do well during this coronavirus pandemic.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

When I started this thread, it was for the purpose of sharing with other brothers and sisters in Christ an interpretative thought that I have found helpful.  That thought is that the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.

In the course of this and some other threads, I have shared some basic things related to this book that I would like to reinforce with this post:

#1---I asked if anyone knew of anything from the opening of the 7th Seal (Rev. 8:1) through the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) that wasn't a part of the Day of the Lord.  So far, no one has come up with anything.  I have went as far as to state that the contents of the Seven Sealed Book pertain to the Day of the Lord---every single page.  If this continues to hold (and I submit that it will), the value of my suggestion, as an interpretative thought, is substantiated.  Just saying...

#2---I have reinforced that the seals of this book do not pertain to the Day of the Lord, but, those things leading up to what is within the book.  In other words, the seals pertain not to the Day of the Lord, but to those things leading up to the Day of the Lord.

#3---I have stated that the seals pertain to the era of the Church---every single seal.  How do I reconcile this with what is said after the opening of the 6th Seal, "For the great day of His wrath (the great Day of the Lord) is come;  and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17)?  Very simply.  The 7th Seal is opened the same day that the 6th Seal is opened.  There is no prohibitive time frame for this understanding.

#4---According to Scripture, the Church will be raptured before the Day of the Lord begins (I Thess. 4:13-18 with 5:1-11, esp. 5:1-3).  It is elementary that many prophetic points come together, or converge, at the 6th Seal.  Several of these are seen in Matthew 24:29-31.  I submit that if it were not for the word "after" in verse 29, everyone would easily see this as a rapture passage.  This is because the word tribulation has been interpreted for so long to be Daniel's 70th Week---and I understand.  If I could liken prophecies of the last days to pieces of a scenery puzzle, this verse reminds me of one of those difficult blue sky pieces!  However, as I see it, the body of the scriptures will support that the tribulation of verse 29 is not that of Daniel's 70th Week, but that of the Christian era, which has been brought on by the activity of the four horsemen.  They have been responsible for that that Jesus warned of in the opening verses of His Olivet Discourse.  If you are unable to see this as I do, I at least hope that you won't hate on me too much as some kind of enemy.  I have been looking at what everyone else says, I just ask that you look at what I'm saying, and consider.  Many puzzle pieces fall into place with this understanding.  Before moving on, I see "all the tribes" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:30 as being "all the tribes" that John wrote of in the 6th Seal interlude (Rev. 7:4).  Also, I see the elect that the angels "shall gather together" (Matt. 24:31/II Thess. 2:1) as being the "great multitude" John wrote of in the same 6th Seal interlude (Rev. 7:9-17).  Very fittingly said, these have "came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14), meaning that that was effected by the activity of the four horsemen.  If this great tribulation is Daniels' 70th Week, it just as easily fits that "came out of" is in the sense of escaped.  Moreover, I see the prophecy of Joel's, quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21), as marking the very day of the inauguration of the era of the Church as well as the very day of the conclusion of this era.  This is a most overlooked and remarkable prophecy, holding a most valuable key to understanding the timing of the rapture relative to other events.

#5---Was it a book or a scroll that God was holding in His right hand (Rev. 5:1)?  Well, we know that some translations have "book" and some have "scroll" and we can look into the Greek, which to me, favors scroll.  Buuut, I am used to saying and thinking "book," because I grew up with the KJV---and still love it.  Please don't throw tomatoes at me!  I have many translations in my library and do a lot of comparing, and recommend it.  My observation, however, has been that there is less concern over whether it was a scroll or a book and more concern over how it was sealed.  My further observation is this:  In what ever kind of way it was sealed, the outcome would be as broad as it is long.  If it is a scroll with seven external seals, the last seal has to be removed before the scroll can unroll.  Likewise, if it is a book with seven external seals, the last seal has to be removed before the book can be opened.  If it is a scroll and there is some roll out after the 1st Seal, and then some more roll out after the 2nd Seal, it don't really matter.  The main body of the scroll would not be able to unroll until the 7th Seal is removed.  Again, likewise, if it is a book and some pages can be opened after the 1st Seal is removed, and some more pages can be opened after the 2nd Seal is removed, it don't really matter.  The main body of the book would not be able to be opened until the 7th Seal is removed.  As I see it, there just ain't no legit merging possibilities with the seals and the trumpets.  I know, I know, but ain't is a word in Kentucky, and its okay to use double negatives where I come from.  Just saying.

Listen brothers and sisters, I believe you are working at understanding all of this just like me.   And, I would certainly rather you sense a twinkle in my eye when we disagree, than a glimmer of fangs.  Let's seek God together on it.  If what I say won't hold, show me in the "Good Book."  Hey, pray to God that He do whatever is necessary to get me to see what I need to see.  This is how I pray concerning me!  For now, I sure have a lot of peace with how I am seeing things.

With Christian charity, not an echo...echo...echo...

HAVE A BLESSED EASTER.  HE IS RISEN! HE IS RISEN!HE IS RISEN!

 

[Hindsfeet77]

Not an echo,

 Your title thread had got me started digging in the Word again, personal revival hopefully!

Having just read thru most of your responses on this thread ( I generally avoid reading long threads, as there is always much contention here),

Your views are the most similar to my learnings/understanding derived from an intense awakening and eschat. study (spring/summer '14)

Very Refreshing! Thank you for taking the time to share!

[not an echo]

On 4/15/2020 at 5:11 AM, Hindsfeet77 said:

Not an echo,

 Your title thread had got me started digging in the Word again, personal revival hopefully!

Having just read thru most of your responses on this thread ( I generally avoid reading long threads, as there is always much contention here),

Your views are the most similar to my learnings/understanding derived from an intense awakening and eschat. study (spring/summer '14)

Very Refreshing! Thank you for taking the time to share!

Hello Hindsfeet77, 

Thanks so much for your words.  They were a very refreshing encouragement.  Please remember me in your prayers as I continue to share what I most assuredly believe to be the truths of Scripture.

[not an echo]

On 4/15/2020 at 5:11 AM, Hindsfeet77 said:

Not an echo,

 Your title thread had got me started digging in the Word again, personal revival hopefully!

Having just read thru most of your responses on this thread ( I generally avoid reading long threads, as there is always much contention here),

Your views are the most similar to my learnings/understanding derived from an intense awakening and eschat. study (spring/summer '14)

Very Refreshing! Thank you for taking the time to share!

Hello again Hindsfeet77,

I've been having some fun with illustrations.  Somebody put me up to it!  I know I have always liked pictures and charts.  Hopefully you and the rest of the forum family will too.  Planning to add some to about all my opening posts.  One of my first ones is in my opening post for this thread.  See what you think. 

[Hindsfeet77]

@not an echo, some of my favorite graphs are from Clarence Larkin - just got a few of his books recently - worth a look!  I will check yours out!  one guy in one of your threads, I think 'Light..something, has brought to light,,,, something that i had been wrestling with for a few years, and just now 'clicked' in my brain that i will need to do some further digging into, that there is an additional 3.5 years added to daniels week - this makes much sense to me and fits much more into my 'timeline' ykwim. I will be sure to check out your graphs! Blessings!