The last seven years of plenty followed by seven years of desolation is the Great Tribulation.

[R. Hartono]

39 minutes ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

I am pointing out that Jesus never taught of pre-tribulation rapture when the disciples asked him what will be the sign of the end times.  If there was a pre-tribulation rapture event Jesus would have made some mention of a rapture prior to the tribulation events, but there is no mention other then the rapture immediately after the tribulation.  To add in this pre-tribulation event  prior to tribulation is adding something to scriptures that simple is not there.  And to say so is also saying there are two separate raptures one prior to the tribulation and one immediately after, which is not taught in scriptures.

I hv written be4 that many people mislead with the word "and then", the more correct translation shud read at that time (end of Times).

Because the raptured is mentioned as the great multitude in heaven, n the souls under the altar came one by one later as beheading of saints took place on earth in the great Tribulation.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

11 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

I hv written be4 that many people mislead with the word "and then", the more correct translation shud read at that time (end of Times).

Because the raptured is mentioned as the great multitude in heaven, n the souls under the altar came one by one later as beheading of saints took place on earth in the great Tribulation.

And how do you get pre-trib rapture from that?  Your proving more of a Post-trib stance, that there will be saints here on earth during the great tribulation.   In correct reference of the great multitude before the throne of the Lamb you mentioned in Rev 7 of scripture it says this multitude are those whom came out of the Great Tribulation meaning they were in the Great Tribulation.   

Rev 7:9, 13-15 KJV - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ... And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[R. Hartono]

7 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

And how do you get pre-trib rapture from that?  Your proving more of a Post-trib stance, that there will be saints here on earth during the great tribulation.   In correct reference of the great multitude before the throne of the Lamb you mentioned in Rev 7 of scripture it says this multitude are those whom came out of the Great Tribulation meaning they were in the Great Tribulation.   

Rev 7:9, 13-15 KJV - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ... And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The great multitude hv living bodies that no longer thirst or hungry, while those under altar were souls/spirit of deceased n they are waiting for their fellows who shall be beheaded on earth as great Tribulation happened n these beheaded saints are foolish virgins who were left behind.

Do you want to be taken into heaven Alive as Paul said or by beheading of the sword,  you are free to choose.

Edited April 11, 2020 by R. Hartono

[iamlamad]

On 3/27/2020 at 10:16 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The MAIN SIGN is the manifestation of the Beast like a lamb who has TWO HORNS (lamb has HORNS? Do you know what mean these two horns?) MANIFEST HIMSELF as the messiah, such as the Jews are waiting him in this current time.  Then you will understand better the last days or the last 7 years, and also the END of the world of the Devil.

WHAT THINGS WILL HAPPEN FROM NOW ON IN ACCORDING THE SCRIPTURES,  THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY? The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy.

Rev.11:1-2-   1...Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2-But the COURT WHICH IS WITHOUT THE TEMPLE LEAVE OUT, and measure it not; for IT IS GIVEN UNTO THE GENTILES: and the Holy City shall they tread under foot forty and two months. -1.260 days - 

What will be the SCENÁRIOS in Jerusalem-SPIRITUALLY Sodom and Egypt- when the OUTER COURT of the temple be trodden by the Gentiles in the days ahead or, very soon, or yet as soon manifest himself the Beast from the earth like a lamb, but speaks as a Dragon?

THE FIRST SCENARIO TO BE SEEN IN JERUSALEM 
In fact what will happen is that the pseudo messiah will manifest himself in the holy city in short future. The supposed messiah, called Eliyahu, born in Jerusalem, living in Jerusalem for decades ago (this detail is very important to be known of everyone here, of course), this MAN as soon as he manifest himself as a messiah in the days to come, he will begin to make signs and lying wonders. The esoteric and spiritist and kabbalistic messiah of the Jews will make great signs and wonders, even will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, deceiving them that dwell on the earth by the miracles which he has power to do. 

THEN A SECOND SCENARIO WILL BE SEEN IN JERUSALEM
All kind of comunications, the midea in general, will show and comment the great signs and lying wonders of the esoteric and spiritist and kabbalistic messiah of the Jews, do you understand? And they will show to the whole world, mainly the channels of television, and, in the other hand, SIMULTANEOUSLY, Ministries and Ministers of all denominations and sects, and all religious leaders of all religious system that exist, they all will comment and preach at the four corners of the earth sayung that Christ is in Jerusalem.  Then the whole world will hear by/through the leaders of the evangelical Churches and non evengelic too, that he is the Christ or messiah. - a false Christ of course -  

AFTER THAT, A THIRD SCENARIO WILL TAKE PLACE IN JERUSALEM
The third scenario in Jerusalem, the holy city, will be of human upheaval, the environment in the holy city will be of EXTREME convulsion evidently, multitudes of people and kindreds and tongues and nations will travel to Jerusalem, a strong tourist movements from all nations, mainly religious tourism from all religions and evangelical churches of all denominations, and sects, and they will travel to Jerusalem, multitudes will be circling in holy city. Even the Pope will meet the false messiah in the midst of a great human mass of religious people, in fact a strong religious movements towards Jerusalem.

These will be the FIRST THREE scenarios in Jerusalem during 42 months or 1260 days, as soon as manifest the false messiah in Israel, enthroned in Jerusalem, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt.Thus will fulfil literally what is written in Revelation 11 and 13.

A FOURTH AND TERRIBLE SCENARIO TAKE PLACE, A SCENARIO OF WAR 
Rev.11:v.2 - the COURT which is without the temple leave out...it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. -  1.260 days -
See, in paralel with the three scenarios described above, the true Christians will preach AGAINST these SATANIC movements, the ENVIRONMENT on the earth will be a spiritual and religious War and one of the (7) seven heads of the Beast of sea -the Papacy and the Whore which rides upon him - will be wounded to death. 

Then the pseudo messiah will make a deal with the Pope to build an Universal religious Empire, and the false messiah will give to the Pope his Power, and his Throne and great Authority(check it out in Revelation 13:v.2), then the deadly wound of the Papacy will be healed and all the World will be wondered after the Pope, called or nicknamed Paulus VII, seated on the throne of the false messiah in the holy city.

And the peoples of the earth included the Jewish people, guided by the pseudo messiah, called Eliyahu, they will worship the pseudo messiah which gave power unto the Pope, and also they will worship the Pope, saying, Who is like unto the Pope? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:v.4) Then, face to the environment extremely favorable, the pseudo messiah will make a deal with the Pope to build an Universal and religious Empire, yeah, a religious Empire, atually an anti-JESUS Empire or AntiChrist's Empire, and according Scriptures who will be the FIRST to rule this satanic Empire for 42 months will be the Pope, as it is prophesied in Revelation 13:v.5. (In that occasion will be the Pope Paulus VII)    

Then will be given unto the Pope Paulus VII a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and also will be given power unto him to continue with his blasphemy for forty and two months (Rev.13:v.5) and he will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name-JESUS-, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heavenly places in Christ.
And will be given unto the Pope Paulus VII to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power will be given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations, all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. 

Rev. 13:v.9-10 say: 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the PATIENCE AND THE FAITH OF THE SAINTS.

But the worst of all, as soon as ends the FIRST period of 42 months of the Antichrist's Empire, ruled by the Pope Paulus VII, is that afterwards will assume the RUTHLESS false messiah, and he will rule the Antichrist's Empire for 1.290 days (Dan.12:v.11), then will be established the Abomination of Desolation, the end of the Dispensation is arrived, yeah, this will be the worst of all precedent things as they are described in Revelation 13:v.11-18.

Among the evangelical people of all denominations will be divisions, they will be hated of all nations for JESUS name's sake, among the believers many will be offended and will betray one another, and will hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise in the churches and will deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan; 12:v.12

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
 

Sorry, but Paul's rapture will take us out of this world before any of these signs will be seen.

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

...

Do you want to be taken into heaven Alive as Paul said or by beheading of the sword,  you are free to choose.

This is well put: it is a choice of the human will. 

[iamlamad]

23 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

And how do you get pre-trib rapture from that?  Your proving more of a Post-trib stance, that there will be saints here on earth during the great tribulation.   In correct reference of the great multitude before the throne of the Lamb you mentioned in Rev 7 of scripture it says this multitude are those whom came out of the Great Tribulation meaning they were in the Great Tribulation.   

Rev 7:9, 13-15 KJV - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ... And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

One MUST pay attention to John's Chronology.  In chapter 7 John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half where Jesus said the days of GT would begin. John is only telling us of this great crowd too large to number that it is the CHURCH AGE that He, God, is calling "the great tribulation." The point is, those two words together: "Great" and "tribulation" were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: because He uses those two words together for other times; He had to ADD more words, that these days in the last half of the week would be greater than any time before or after. And WHY is that? Because it is going to be worldwide. It will be quite like a Jew trying to hide in Berlin say in 1944, when they have just about ZERO chance to live - only here it is going to be a worldwide manhunt. 

People come ONE BY ONE out of the church age darkness into the light of the gospel and are born again.  Then, there will not be another group of people mentioned in Revelation that will ever come CLOSE to this number: it is going to be billions of people: perhaps up to 50 generations of believers all together in one place at one time: PLUS all the children of the world at the time of the rapture. It would take John perhaps 32 years to count to a billion, if he did not get lost in counting.  Just from the words, "which no man could number" tells us this is the raptured church.  There is not one hint that they are martyred saints. Just common sense tells us that the number of martyrs during the church age will not come anywhere close to the number NOT martyred. 

Knowing that "the trib" starts with the 7th seal, and this is between the 6th and 7th, it is PRETRIB in any language. 

In other words, they WERE in the "GT" of the church age, but NOT in the days of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of.

Edited April 12, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 4/10/2020 at 10:57 PM, R. Hartono said:

I hv written be4 that many people mislead with the word "and then", the more correct translation shud read at that time (end of Times).

Because the raptured is mentioned as the great multitude in heaven, n the souls under the altar came one by one later as beheading of saints took place on earth in the great Tribulation.

I think you are confusing the church age martyrs with this great crowd too large to number. The martyrs are only a very small percentage of those NOT martyred. Which then will be the larger number? Note carefully, John does not arrive at the beheaded saints until chapter 15!!!! The days of GT that JEsus spoke of only begin late in chapter 14 - after the warning given by the angels.

[iamlamad]

On 4/10/2020 at 10:13 PM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

I am pointing out that Jesus never taught of pre-tribulation rapture when the disciples asked him what will be the sign of the end times.  If there was a pre-tribulation rapture event Jesus would have made some mention of a rapture prior to the tribulation events, but there is no mention other then the rapture immediately after the tribulation.  To add in this pre-tribulation event  prior to tribulation is adding something to scriptures that simple is not there.  And to say so is also saying there are two separate raptures one prior to the tribulation and one immediately after, which is not taught in scriptures.

OF COURSE Jesus did not teach of a pretrib rapture, for the pretrib rapture is of the Gentile church of today: jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR day.  Even though God KNOWS the outcome of every situation, He allows men to choose. He WAITED after His resurrection for some amount of time for Israel as a nation to Accept Him as their messiah. They refused, and THEN God turned to the Gentiles.  So no on is "adding" pretrib to Matthew 24 because it is just not there to begin with. It is about Daniel's 70th week - for THEIR people, not the Gentile church of today.

Note carefully, Matthew said a GATHERING, not a rapture. 

[Jedi4Yahweh]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OF COURSE Jesus did not teach of a pretrib rapture, for the pretrib rapture is of the Gentile church of today: jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR day.  Even though God KNOWS the outcome of every situation, He allows men to choose. He WAITED after His resurrection for some amount of time for Israel as a nation to Accept Him as their messiah. They refused, and THEN God turned to the Gentiles.  So no on is "adding" pretrib to Matthew 24 because it is just not there to begin with. It is about Daniel's 70th week - for THEIR people, not the Gentile church of today.

Note carefully, Matthew said a GATHERING, not a rapture. 

Your deceiving yourself and others their is no GENTILE CHURCH.  The church is the body of Christ made up of both Jew and Gentile.  You trying to discredit Jesus teachings by saying it does not apply to Gentiles.  If it were true than salvation and and resurrection and everything else taught to the Jews by Jesus would also need to be discredited.    The Gospel and New Covenant was for the Jews that was extended to Gentile believers out of the grace of God.  It is not a different Gospel then what Jesus preached to Jews.  Its the same Gospel and truth that he told is disciples to take to all the nations.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Jedi4Yahweh

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Jedi4Yahweh said:

Your deceiving yourself and others their is no GENTILE CHURCH.  The church is the body of Christ made up of both Jew and Gentile.  You trying to discredit Jesus teachings by saying it does not apply to Gentiles.  If it were true than salvation and and resurrection and everything else taught to the Jews by Jesus would also need to be discredited.    The Gospel and New Covenant was for the Jews that was extended to Gentile believers out of the grace of God.  It is not a different Gospel then what Jesus preached to Jews.  Its the same Gospel and truth that he told is disciples to take to all the nations.

OF COURSE the church of today is mostly a Gentile church. Did you never read?

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

 

Come in WHERE? Where else? Of course come in to the church, the body of Christ on earth. On day the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, the pretrib rapture will take place, the Day of the Lord will instantly follow, and God will then focus back on the Jews for the 70th week of Daniel. 

 

I wonder, can you find ONE (1) verse in Matthew 24 or 25 that you think points to the church rather than Israel?