Hell is humanity's predestination

[Ineedhugs]

8 hours ago, choir loft said:

To begin, the concept of immortal life began with the ancient Egyptians.  Look it up.  Eternal torment was NEVER a concept recognized in Hebrew literature or tradition.  

Look it up.  

When the Greek and Roman empires arose, they adapted the Egyptian myth into their own form of classic pagan religion.   Hades, for example, was the god of the underworld.  Hades was a mythical person, not a place.  

Look it up.

In the first centuries of the Catholic corruption of Christianity the Roman myths of an underworld populated by the damned (a word that properly means condemned) was further adapted and adopted.   Hades became a place of everlasting punishment instead of a person.  Gehenna, which was in reality a city dump for the residents of Jerusalem, also became a synonym for everlasting punishment.  Finally the English word hell isn't Biblical either.  The word hell is derived from the Old English word hel, which in turn is derived from a pagan Anglo-Saxon myth also referring to the nether world.  Hell was adopted into the English language in 725AD, long after Jesus' ascension into heaven. 

Look it up.

All the concepts of eternal torment are pagan in nature, not originating with Hebrew scripture at all.  Neither are they references made by Christ.  (Hell was adopted in 725AD, long after Jesus' ascension into heaven.)

Look it up.  It's all true.

Moving Forward......

In Hebrew, the place of the dead is called sheol.  Also referred to as a place of darkness or a place where the spirits of the sleeping dead are sent.  Nothing is said about torment, nothing at all.

The Christian subversion of the meanings of words is rampant.  In order to force false doctrine upon its members, the Catholic church, as well as aberrant Protestant sources, change the meanings of simple words.   The concept is not unknown among those experts in political propaganda.   For instance, dead means a condition devoid of life.  It doesn't refer to unDead, an occult phrase popular today.  Life refers to consciousness and continuity and fire refers to that which utterly destroys that which is exposed to it.  In no instance does fire EVER suggest eternal life - including eternal torture.   Its not rocket science except for those who seek to justify their own aberrations of doctrine into something God did not intend.

When God said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" in Genesis 6:3a was He lying?

When Timothy, St. Pauls protege, wrote in his first epistle chapter six verse sixteen of God that He, "alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light." was he too promoting a lie?

Either the Bible is coherent with its representations or it is terribly inconsistent.  Or perhaps certain people have been led to believe a lie.

Which do you believe, pagan myth or Biblical truth?

Matt 25:46 refers to judgment that has no reversal.  It speaks to God's everlasting contempt for sinners and that He will destroy them utterly without hope of renewal.

Mark 9:43 is a misquote. You failed to quote the rest of the verse which states the condemned would be cast into unquenchable fire and destroyed.

Matt 25:41 also speaks of permanent irreversible and FINAL destruction by fire - the Second Death.  (Do you know what 'death' means?)

Matt 10:28 is another deliberate misquote by YOU.   The rest of the verse promises total destruction of body & soul.

Your quote of Revelation 14 mentions the sea-beast.  In the Bible a beast represents a system an organization or a nation.  Specifically the quote refers to a religious system.  Since it is impossible for systems organizations or nations to experience pain and torment, the section is meant to be taken figuratively.   If not, then please show me another section of scripture which suggests otherwise.  One cannot base a dogma on a singe verse and approach clarity or truth or intent of God to teach.

The correct quote of Matthew 23:23 is as follows;  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."  Once again you have misquoted scripture to support a false doctrine.

Popular and deliberate misconceptions of the afterlife continue in your often quoted section from the gospel of Luke describing the rich man and Lazarus (Luke chapter 16).

The point of the story is that of Jesus' teaching a moral lesson.  The background of the story was commonly known in Jesus' day as a type of folk story or fiction.  Jesus used it to teach a moral lesson.  There are numerous references to such folk tales which are mentioned by the Jewish historian Josephus as well as Biblical scholars such as Gressmann, Froom, Whiston, Edward White, Henry Constable and Edward William Fudge.  Jesus often used related subjects to teach moral or spiritual lessons.   

I hope this helps some readers to understand the difference between pagan influence on modern dogma and what scripture is clearly teaching us all.

Study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Umm dude the bible clearly talks about hell and eternal torment in the new testament. If you think that hell is a lie and the bibles been corrupted then how do you know what scripture to believe or throw out? Do you believe in God and Jesus Christ? yes? good, then accept the bible as Gods inerrant word inspired by the holy spirit. If God and Jesus are real, then there will be no mistakes and corruption of the bible, trust me. God doesn't make mistakes.  The bible was purposefully put together and protected from corruption by God. He wouldn't give us a book with lies in it!

Also, look up Bill Wiese 23 minutes in hell. He went to hell for 23 minutes and now warns the world about it. Is he lying if he spends his whole life warning others about hell? I doubt it, it's a waste of life. Also noone is saying he has had mental problems in the past.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Ineedhugs

[Your closest friendnt]

On 3/23/2020 at 1:51 AM, Jostler said:

Adam's fall means we all were born dead.  Hell bound from birth.  Jesus came to make way to avoid that certain destination, if we will choose Him as He chose us.  I'm actually surprised there is any confusion over the title, that simply expresses a fundamental Biblical truth.

God said to Moses to tell the Israelites...when they asked who is this God...

He said tell them: 

I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, I am the God of the living and not the God of the dead....

This is something!!....in your post you do not make this distinction...between the rest of the world and Abraham and his seed.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Your closest friendnt
Spellings

[Blood Bought 1953]

15 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

What "stuff" Scripture? All scripture is from the Holy Ghost, therefore it all must be taken into account. The way we overcome is by following the Holy Ghost, not our own inclinations, but rather the clear directives we find in, scripture. If we grieve His Holy Spirit we become His enemies; Isaiah 63:10, Ephesians 4:30- 5:5, Philippians 3:18-19.

And yes, dear one, all the promises of God are and must be true;

"The enemies of the Lord will be as the splendor of the meadows; they shall vanish, into smoke shall they consume away" Psalm 37:20.

 

Our belief that Christ died and rose from the dead should motivate us to obey Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:15.

"Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them" Hebrews 7:25

"they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts" Galatians 5:24  Having come to God sincerely for forgiveness of and cleansing from sin, via faith in His Son.

"He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ" Philippians 1:6.

 

The only way it would not complete is if we are resisting any change, or ignoring any change, or thinking that we don't have to change, or thinking that we can't.

Through His Spirit we can do all things.

If you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh you shall live. What kind of life and death is Paul speaking about in Romans 8:13-14?

God saved all flesh by shedding His Holy Spirit upon all flesh via the death and resurrection of His Son, the Holy Spirit is the actual gift we accept via faith in Christ; Acts 2:38.

To reject the Holy Spirit, the work of the Holy Spirit in our life, is to reject Gods salvation.

 

I offer my sincere apologies for the use of the word, “Stuff.” I lacked the courage that Paul had—- he referred  to some of these things as “ Dung.” We Don’t “ overcome” by “ following directives” or by our “willingness to change.” Changing will make one more Moral- unfortunately, God is not looking  for those who use will-power to “turn over a new leaf.” God’s goal for His Children goes way  beyond change—- He wants to actually TRANSFORM us......That is something that only HE can do.

Contrary to “rejecting the Holy Spirit,” I think I hold Him in higher esteem than you do—- I actually Believe that He will do what God said He would do— transform me into into the image of His Son.He does not need my help.Everytime a Biblical Character tries to “ help out” God , it turns out to be a mistake.All that Trouble we have seen for  centuries in the Mideast? Trace It back to Abraham who did not fully Trust God when he decided to have relations with Hagar to “ help God out” with His Promise to make Abraham a Father Of Multitudes.Abraham and this entire World would be much better off if Abraham had Trusted God and GOD ALONE to fulfill His Promise.He did not REST in God”s Promise .......just like many today fail to  fully REST in His Promise-His Gospel Of Grace -to  Save all that merely  believe it.If we do our part-Trust and rest in what He has done for us at the Finished Work Of The Cross- He will the part that only He can do.....Transform us.

Of course people can change, but that ain’t what this Christian Walk is all about......it is not our willingness to “ Change”.......It is our Faith that God will keep his Promise and we will  “BE” changed.All Of my self-improvement schemes turn out to be Dung.......

I offer apologies if this little rant does not apply to you.....I can guarantee it will benefit “ somebody” out there......

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 3/24/2020 at 3:14 PM, choir loft said:

As I wrote earlier, if you can find a fuel that burns eternally please let me know so I can get some for my car.

God can surely make fire that lasts forever. Can He not?

The end of the Bible clearly declares twice that God will send divine fire upon the world; Revelation 19:21 

"the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded from His mouth" [Micah 5:2-5, Isaiah 30:30-33]

And Revelation 20:9 "and a fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them"

 

Isaiah 33:14 says everlasting burnings, and it simply means what it says. Everlasting burnings. Everlasting. How, I don't know, God knows and certainly can.

It will be as prophesied; Isaiah 10:24-26, 30:30-33 + Micah 5:2-5 + Revelation 19:21. 

 

Clearly the Messiah is God in the flesh; 1 Tim. 3:16,  Jeremiah 17:10 + Revelation 2:23.

He will be the peace when the "Assyrian" comes into the land; Micah 5:2-5. Isaiah 14:25.

The day will be like the day against Midian; with trumpets; Judges 6:34, 7:18, Isaiah 10:24-26.

The Lord will set fire to the land with His voice; Isaiah 30:30-33.

His voice will be heard before (at the front of) His army; Joel 2:11.

 

"For Tophet it is ordained of old; yea for the the king it (the fire) is prepared; He has made it deep and large (the lake of fire)

the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord (divine fire that surely can last forever) like a stream of brimstone doth kindle it." Isaiah 30:33

All the above is ultimately fulfilled during Revelation 19:21 and 20:9.

 

2 Peter 3:10-12

Jude 1:14-15, Psalm 58:10, Malachi 4:3 'the righteous shall trample down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under your feet in the day that the Lord does this'

Revelation 19:7-21 the marriage supper of the Lamb. Resurrections and wrath, those resurrected enjoy the marriage supper; Psalm 58:10 and Malachi 4:3; Revelation 19:17-21.

 

"He that overcomes shall inherit all things, but the fearful and unbelieving...

 and all liars, shall have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Revelation 21:7-8.

 

Therefore let us be overcomers by letting our belief in Christ motivate us to live for Christ; motivate us to love as Christ taught.

[Desopixi Seilynam]

On 3/25/2020 at 1:19 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said:

God is not looking  for those who use will-power to “turn over a new leaf.”

God is looking for those who use His Spirit to change.  Romans 8:13-14 as Paul clearly and repeatedly says Galatians 5:14-24.

And the words I originally quoted were Paul's own words, your telling me that they are "Dung"?

"they that live [according to the flesh] shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven" Galatians 5:19-21

"they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts" Galatians 5:24

 

It's not self help, it's faith, faith that God's Holy Spirit is inside of me, therefore, as Paul said; I can do all things through Christ who is strengthening me.

As Paul said; If you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. Romans 8:13

The actual gift we as believers literally have is the Holy Spirit of God; Acts 2:38. 

 

"For with the heart man believes unto righteousness" Romans 10:10

The kind of belief we are to have is clearly supposed to be motivational, a belief that motivates us to act; 2 Corinthians 5:15, not a passive belief.

 

Paul also said to consider ourselves dead to sin, Romans 6:1-4, so the faith is not that we will be changed, but that we are changed now, we have been given a new nature, we have been given the Holy Spirit, and therefore are dead to sin now, changed now, we need therefore live that way, by faith, and we will see that it is true.

 

And yes, Abraham, Abraham did not sincerely believe that at 100 he could, get his 90 year old wife pregnant, but he needed to have faith and believe that he could. Because that is ultimately exactly what happened, he needed to have faith that he could because God surely gave him and his wife the power TO get pregnant. It is what Abraham and Sarah doubted, perhaps they were waiting for it to just magically happen, but God wanted them, to, right? God wanted them to actually do something, yes? By faith!  

And Abraham, what was he going to do, was he going to actually kill Isaac or was he just going through the motions waiting for God to show up? What can we conclude from scripture; Hebrews 11:19? Abraham believed that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead is what scripture tells us! So Abraham's faith; what he believed; that Isaac was going to be risen from the dead; did not lead him to inaction, but rather to action, BY FAITH. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Desopixi Seilynam
Romans 6:1-4, Abraham

[choir loft]

On 3/24/2020 at 6:28 PM, Ineedhugs said:

Umm dude the bible clearly talks about hell and eternal torment in the new testament. If you think that hell is a lie and the bibles been corrupted then how do you know what scripture to believe or throw out? Do you believe in God and Jesus Christ? yes? good, then accept the bible as Gods inerrant word inspired by the holy spirit. If God and Jesus are real, then there will be no mistakes and corruption of the bible, trust me. God doesn't make mistakes.  The bible was purposefully put together and protected from corruption by God. He wouldn't give us a book with lies in it!

Also, look up Bill Wiese 23 minutes in hell. He went to hell for 23 minutes and now warns the world about it. Is he lying if he spends his whole life warning others about hell? I doubt it, it's a waste of life. Also noone is saying he has had mental problems in the past.

Did you read anything I wrote?

HISTORY, especially that of the Roman Catholic church, is replete with references to the underworld.  

SECULAR BELIEF, which has insinuated itself into Christian dogma, suggests a form of immortal life APART from divine judgment.

NO my friend, the Bible emphatically does NOT speak to eternal torment.   Is Jesus Christ the dungeon master of torments in the bowels of the earth?  Show me in the Bible where it says he is or that he has fashioned such a place.  You will not find it because it does not exist.  

Do you read the Bible or do you simply acknowledge the rumor of centuries?  The Bible is God's honest truth, but it HAS been improperly interpreted.  

If not, then please explain why there are so many different translations.  

In one translation the words of Jesus are quoted as referring to sheol or gehenna, while in another at exactly the same verse it will say hell or hades.   The latter references are pagan in origin, while references to sheol and gehenna are strictly Biblical.  This is not due to inerrancy of the Bible, but to flaws in the translation process.   Any serious study of scripture will reveal these differences.  This is why the Bible itself encourages us to "study to show yourself approved" (2 Tim 2:15)  Do you study the Bible at all or are you content with rumors and doctrines?

In one notorious version of the Bible, the Scofield Reference Bible, aberrant doctrine of Catholic Jesuits is introduced and reinforced by chain link references.  It isn't a study Bible so much as it promotes Roman Catholic doctrine.  

My purpose isn't to cast aspersions upon the Word of God.  My purpose is to share knowledge of the history of the unBiblical doctrine of eternal torment and of the history of its transmission thru the years.   It's there for anyone to discover if only they will have a look.   This isn't something I've cooked up on my own and it isn't something intended to hurt one's faith.   Indeed it is intended to reinforce faith.

I NEVER said the Bible was full of lies.  I DO say that liars like satan use the Bible to teach falsehood and SIN.  From Genesis chapter 3 to the present day it has been true of the enemy.

For if there is a hell, then there is NO judgment of death upon SINNERS and Jesus died on the cross for nothing.   If there is a hell, then Almighty God - the standard of righteousness - can be bribed against His own intentions andjudgments.  The Catholic doctrine of hell says there is no real fire and no real death and that the wicked can bribe God.  Is this not the vary antithesis of Biblical truth?

Think.   Read.  Study.

Don't just sit there and repeat rubbish you learned from Hollywood and comic books and classic mythology.   Read the Bible.   It uses simple words like 'death' and 'fire' to describe the fate of the wicked.

Satan twists the word 'death' to mean something other than death and 'fire' to mean nothing more than hot water.   If one examines the Bible for consistent references one will discover death means total end of life and fire means absolute destruction.  Sodom was destroyed by fire, not burned by hot water.  Sodom will never rise again forever.  It is not burned forever.

Does not the Bible also say that ONLY GOD has immortal life?  How then can anyone assume in truth that mankind has it?  We can not if we read the Bible correctly.   Jesus came to give life to those who repent of their sin and accept Him.  Nobody else gets it, especially the wicked who deny Him to their last breath.

Is the Bible inconsistent or is the interpretation confused?   Think.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Edited March 27, 2020 by choir loft

[choir loft]

On 3/24/2020 at 9:57 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

"The sinners in Zion are afraid, fearfulness has surprised the hypocrites.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" Isaiah 33:14

 

"The streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, the dust into brimstone, and the land shall become burning pitch.

It shall not be quenched day or night; the smoke thereof shall go up forever." Isaiah 34:9-10

 

The lake of fire is the second death, the method by which souls die; Isaiah 10:18, Matthew 10:28.

All scripture must be true however; Daniel 12:2 "eternal abhorrence" Isaiah 33:14 "everlasting burnings".

All will be resurrected, those not in the book of life, thrown into the lake of fire; Revelation 20:13-15.

God is love, yes the lake ultimately can cause non-existence, but the choice to "sink or swim" will be up to the person, as it is now.

Therefore many will choose to struggle forever against the flames, preferring to exist rather than not exist; however painful; and therefore there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So no whips and chains, no direct torture, but the place is torturous by nature. 

Again you are deliberately misunderstanding the meaning of simple words.

The fire burns continually.   That which is thrown into it is destroyed utterly.  There is no hope of reconstitution forever.

That which is exposed to flame is utterly destroyed.  It does not burn forever.  The fire burns forever, not the fuel.

Why is this so hard to understand?  It's not rocket science, you know.

Gehenna, which was an actual dump outside of Jerusalem, burned continually because of the constant deposit of garbage thrown into it.  The worms or maggots that lived in the dump constantly feasted upon the detritus of the city SO AS TO CONSUME IT ALL.   It should be known also that gehenna was also the place where ancient Hebrews once worshipped the pagan god Molech.   The statue of the god was filled with fire into which the people threw their infants.  This is a popular practice even to this day, where 'civilized' people murder their children for the sake of convenience.   The worm and the fire go on - the waste is destroyed.

The judgment upon those who deny God until their dying breath is the same as deadwood.  They are thrown away and destroyed.

Life is a gift to the righteous in Christ.   The doctrine of hell is a lie - suggesting life of an unpleasant nature, but life nonetheless.   Nowhere in the Bible does it promise God will grant life to the wicked.  No indeed.  It says they will be utterly destroyed and removed as were the residents of Sodom.   Do they still suffer from fire or were they burned once and for all?   THINK.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

[Desopixi Seilynam]

36 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Nowhere in the Bible does it promise God will grant life to the wicked.

Acts 24:15 "that there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust"

Which is described in Revelation 20:13-15. So they get resurrected back to life only to be destroyed painfully in a fire?

What the Messiah said is not true? "It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gamorah, than for you..." 

Or is God love? Lovingly resurrecting them with special bodies, not fully immortal bodies as the saints get, but clearly some sort of other body, themselves but different.

Able to struggle against the flames of "hell" for forever, IF, they so choose. Most will choose so, and therefore it will be forever, by their choice, and by Gods never ending love.

 

[Ineedhugs]

9 hours ago, choir loft said:

Did you read anything I wrote?

HISTORY, especially that of the Roman Catholic church, is replete with references to the underworld.  

SECULAR BELIEF, which has insinuated itself into Christian dogma, suggests a form of immortal life APART from divine judgment.

NO my friend, the Bible emphatically does NOT speak to eternal torment.   Is Jesus Christ the dungeon master of torments in the bowels of the earth?  Show me in the Bible where it says he is or that he has fashioned such a place.  You will not find it because it does not exist.  

Do you read the Bible or do you simply acknowledge the rumor of centuries?  The Bible is God's honest truth, but it HAS been improperly interpreted.  

If not, then please explain why there are so many different translations.  

In one translation the words of Jesus are quoted as referring to sheol or gehenna, while in another at exactly the same verse it will say hell or hades.   The latter references are pagan in origin, while references to sheol and gehenna are strictly Biblical.  This is not due to inerrancy of the Bible, but to flaws in the translation process.   Any serious study of scripture will reveal these differences.  This is why the Bible itself encourages us to "study to show yourself approved" (2 Tim 2:15)  Do you study the Bible at all or are you content with rumors and doctrines?

In one notorious version of the Bible, the Scofield Reference Bible, aberrant doctrine of Catholic Jesuits is introduced and reinforced by chain link references.  It isn't a study Bible so much as it promotes Roman Catholic doctrine.  

My purpose isn't to cast aspersions upon the Word of God.  My purpose is to share knowledge of the history of the unBiblical doctrine of eternal torment and of the history of its transmission thru the years.   It's there for anyone to discover if only they will have a look.   This isn't something I've cooked up on my own and it isn't something intended to hurt one's faith.   Indeed it is intended to reinforce faith.

I NEVER said the Bible was full of lies.  I DO say that liars like satan use the Bible to teach falsehood and SIN.  From Genesis chapter 3 to the present day it has been true of the enemy.

For if there is a hell, then there is NO judgment of death upon SINNERS and Jesus died on the cross for nothing.   If there is a hell, then Almighty God - the standard of righteousness - can be bribed against His own intentions andjudgments.  The Catholic doctrine of hell says there is no real fire and no real death and that the wicked can bribe God.  Is this not the vary antithesis of Biblical truth?

Think.   Read.  Study.

Don't just sit there and repeat rubbish you learned from Hollywood and comic books and classic mythology.   Read the Bible.   It uses simple words like 'death' and 'fire' to describe the fate of the wicked.

Satan twists the word 'death' to mean something other than death and 'fire' to mean nothing more than hot water.   If one examines the Bible for consistent references one will discover death means total end of life and fire means absolute destruction.  Sodom was destroyed by fire, not burned by hot water.  Sodom will never rise again forever.  It is not burned forever.

Does not the Bible also say that ONLY GOD has immortal life?  How then can anyone assume in truth that mankind has it?  We can not if we read the Bible correctly.   Jesus came to give life to those who repent of their sin and accept Him.  Nobody else gets it, especially the wicked who deny Him to their last breath.

Is the Bible inconsistent or is the interpretation confused?   Think.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Read Matthew 25:31-46. How he talks about separating the sheep from the goats at the end. The goats go away into 'eternal punishment'. Also read the rich man and Lazarus because the rich man was in torment in the flames, he didn't get burned up.

Read Matthew 13:38-42. He says those thrown into the blazing furnace will weep and gnash their teeth. Sounds like eternal suffering to me. Why would you weep and gnash your teeth if you die?

Just google Bible verses about hell man there are websites who list many of them. There's more than what i put down.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

18 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

God is looking for those who use His Spirit to change.  Romans 8:13-14 as Paul clearly and repeatedly says Galatians 5:14-24.

And the words I originally quoted were Paul's own words, your telling me that they are "Dung"?

"they that live [according to the flesh] shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven" Galatians 5:19-21

"they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts" Galatians 5:24

 

It's not self help, it's faith, faith that God's Holy Spirit is inside of me, therefore, as Paul said; I can do all things through Christ who is strengthening me.

As Paul said; If you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live. Romans 8:13

The actual gift we as believers literally have is the Holy Spirit of God; Acts 2:38. 

 

"For with the heart man believes unto righteousness" Romans 10:10

The kind of belief we are to have is clearly supposed to be motivational, a belief that motivates us to act; 2 Corinthians 5:15, not a passive belief.

 

Paul also said to consider ourselves dead to sin, Romans 6:1-4, so the faith is not that we will be changed, but that we are changed now, we have been given a new nature, we have been given the Holy Spirit, and therefore are dead to sin now, changed now, we need therefore live that way, by faith, and we will see that it is true.

 

And yes, Abraham, Abraham did not sincerely believe that at 100 he could, get his 90 year old wife pregnant, but he needed to have faith and believe that he could. Because that is ultimately exactly what happened, he needed to have faith that he could because God surely gave him and his wife the power TO get pregnant. It is what Abraham and Sarah doubted, perhaps they were waiting for it to just magically happen, but God wanted them, to, right? God wanted them to actually do something, yes? By faith!  

And Abraham, what was he going to do, was he going to actually kill Isaac or was he just going through the motions waiting for God to show up? What can we conclude from scripture; Hebrews 11:19? Abraham believed that God was going to raise Isaac from the dead is what scripture tells us! So Abraham's faith; what he believed; that Isaac was going to be risen from the dead; did not lead him to inaction, but rather to action, BY FAITH. 

 

Let me clarify what is “ dung”...All Religion is Dung—-That would be adding ANY Human Merit to Salvation.....Saul ( not Paul) was the KING KONG of the Religion of Judaism.....he had all the proper Pedigrees, the best teaching available at that time ( by Gamaliel), the intelligence to remember the countless rules and regulations of his religion and the will-Power to live by them to the degree that he was held in very high esteem by all of his fellow Pharisees. 

After Saul became Paul and got to know Jesus, he came to know that which  was TRULY important— something God had chosen to keep a secret for Millennia —- “ Christ In Us” for Salvation.Trusting in Christ and His Finished Work at the Cross To Save was the only way to be saved and when he realized that Truth, Paul knew that all of his religious works has been a complete waste of time......of no more value than Dung.

The dumbest person in Here knows that I would never call a verse of Paul “ dung”......perhaps I was unclear for some that would give anything to trip me  up and have me accidentally show myself for the Heretic they believe that I am .I believe a confused , poorly taught person can take the writings of Paul and turn them “ into” dung” if they misunderstand complex verses and then have to cancel out hundreds of other crystal- clear verses to make their error look like it is Truth.

Your common misunderstanding of Hebrews 10 is an example of what I am talking about— Nothing  wrong with the verses - there never is— but it is the false interpretation of those verses that is rubbish, or dung.George has provided an excellent video in the video section that is so sensible that there is no longer an excuse for misunderstanding these verses that have brought misery to sensitive, but confused Believers.