choir loft Posted March 28, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,221 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 335 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) On 3/27/2020 at 9:39 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said: Acts 24:15 "that there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust" Which is described in Revelation 20:13-15. So they get resurrected back to life only to be destroyed painfully in a fire? What the Messiah said is not true? "It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gamorah, than for you..." Or is God love? Lovingly resurrecting them with special bodies, not fully immortal bodies as the saints get, but clearly some sort of other body, themselves but different. Able to struggle against the flames of "hell" for forever, IF, they so choose. Most will choose so, and therefore it will be forever, by their choice, and by Gods never ending love. The principle of TEMPORARY resurrection is demonstrated in the gospels. Read about Jairus' daughter, Lazarus and the young man that Jesus raised. All of those were TEMPORARY resurrections. They died later on. So too will the resurrection of the unjust be at the end of the age. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unjust, will be for Final Judgment. GOD HATES SIN and He despises those who have rejected His loving overtures all their lives. At the Final Judgment He will cause them to depart from His presence into the Second Death - total utter destruction and annihilation. GOD does NOT resurrect the unjust with "special bodies" other than for Final Judgment. Nowhere does the Bible say God gives immortal life to the wicked. NOWHERE. CONSIDER if you can that the false doctrine of hell, as well as your own denial of divine judgment against SIN, is a futile attempt to establish life for the dead. - If the unjust are given life, then Christ died for nothing. - If the unjust can bribe God to relieve them of their punishment, then Christ died for nothing. Only the blood of Christ can save. Why did Jesus die upon the cross? He died so that those who REPENT and CONFESS their SIN and accept His lordship in their lives could receive forgiveness and immortal life. Those who reject Christ all their physical lives get NO second chance for repentance after death. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a The word MORTAL refers to creatures that are naturally subject to death - all of us in other words. At death the opportunity to REPENT is lost. Final judgment is FINAL. I am really curious why you are so eager to defend SIN and the works of the devil. I am curious as to why you wish to subvert the work of Christ upon the cross and to substitute a demonic version of the afterlife. You write as though you have no idea what Christ's sacrifice for SIN was about. This is typical of illiterate Christians as well as the secular world. The opportunity to accept Christ ONLY happens during physical life. NOWHERE does the Bible suggest otherwise. The idea that choices continue after death is pagan in origin and Roman Catholic in practice. It is wholly a demonic lie. You CAN NOT bribe God to forgive you after death and you CAN NOT hope to remain alive, even a torturous life, after death. Only the just receive immortal life and then at the first resurrection. Stop approving of SIN. Stop making allowance for it. It is not Biblical. REPENT or die in your SINs. Today is the time for salvation. - 2 Corinthians 6:2 that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited March 28, 2020 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted March 28, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,221 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 335 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted March 28, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Ineedhugs said: Read Matthew 25:31-46. How he talks about separating the sheep from the goats at the end. The goats go away into 'eternal punishment'. Also read the rich man and Lazarus because the rich man was in torment in the flames, he didn't get burned up. Read Matthew 13:38-42. He says those thrown into the blazing furnace will weep and gnash their teeth. Sounds like eternal suffering to me. Why would you weep and gnash your teeth if you die? Just google Bible verses about hell man there are websites who list many of them. There's more than what i put down. Beasts in the Bible are properly interpreted to refer to systems nations and organizations unless otherwise stipulated. Therefore, the reference to sheep and goats is a reference to nations - those that are favored in God's eyes and those that are not. The same is true of references to the sea-beast and the earth-beast in Revelation 13. Those beasts represent a religious system and a nation - specifically the Roman Catholic church and the United States. Since it is impossible for a nation or system to experience pain and torture, the beast punishment is figurative, not literal. When eternal punishment is referenced with regard to Final Judgment, it connotes God's hatred of those entities, which will be for all time in perpetuity (perpetuity means forever). God's hatred will be forever, not the punishment. The punishment will be final. Therefore the goats will be destroyed and the sheep blessed. The precedent for this also appears in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. The Bible is self-interpreting. Read it, not the internet. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. God has stated on numerous occasions in Holy Writ that He hates it. God has stated that He intends to make a permanent end to SIN as well as its works. Therefore, man must either CONFESS and REPENT of his SIN and end it or God will end it by the man's death - physically and spiritually. God WILL have an end to SIN. God will not allow SIN to continue after physical death. If He did, it would be a continuation of that which God promised to end. The pagan notion of an underworld dungeon does not appear in scripture anywhere. Give us chapter and verse if you can, instead of twisting scripture to occult purpose. How long does the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" described in Matthew 13:42 last? That snippet of scripture you picked doesn't tell us. The realization of imminent spiritual death on the part of the unjust may last a blink of an eye or a moment or two. Death will come and many that suffer it will weep EVEN BEFORE it arrives. I have seen it in fact. Many also rant against God for bringing them to that point in time. GOOGLE is a search engine, not a Bible scholar. It will yield results for any search parameter. If you search for the root word you will discover the following from Wikipedia; The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon period. Thus even Google reveals the word hell is pagan in origin, not Biblical. Why do you refuse to acknowledge your own references? I submit you are so eager to dismiss God's Final Judgment upon SIN and those who love it that you can not and will not admit the Bible's promise of divine retribution for it - that God WILL have an end to SIN - forever. As usual, those who love SIN and seek to justify and continue satan's lie that "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) are living a false hope and promoting a demonic doctrine. Those who love SIN continue to subvert the Bible's clear and unequivocal statement that he who sins shall die. (Romans 6:3). Death is the cessation of life. How simple does it have to get to persuade sinners? Fire destroys all that is cast into it. Nothing long survives the touch of flame, including a sinner sentenced to the Second Death in the lake of fire. "What the fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away" - Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1988 Study the Bible to learn its consistent teaching about life death and eternal reward and punishment. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:9 The soul that sins shall surely die. - Ezekiel 18:20 Death means cessation of life both physical and spiritual. This is a simple idea, not rocket science. To be subverted by demonic purpose the simple meaning of words MUST FIRST be redefined. This is true in religion as well as human politics. Beware those who reverse the meaning of words. They are liars one and all. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited March 28, 2020 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted March 28, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,875 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,769 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2020 8 hours ago, choir loft said: Beasts in the Bible are properly interpreted to refer to systems nations and organizations unless otherwise stipulated. Therefore, the reference to sheep and goats is a reference to nations - those that are favored in God's eyes and those that are not. The same is true of references to the sea-beast and the earth-beast in Revelation 13. Those beasts represent a religious system and a nation - specifically the Roman Catholic church and the United States. Since it is impossible for a nation or system to experience pain and torture, the beast punishment is figurative, not literal. When eternal punishment is referenced with regard to Final Judgment, it connotes God's hatred of those entities, which will be for all time in perpetuity (perpetuity means forever). God's hatred will be forever, not the punishment. The punishment will be final. Therefore the goats will be destroyed and the sheep blessed. The precedent for this also appears in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. The Bible is self-interpreting. Read it, not the internet. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. God has stated on numerous occasions in Holy Writ that He hates it. God has stated that He intends to make a permanent end to SIN as well as its works. Therefore, man must either CONFESS and REPENT of his SIN and end it or God will end it by the man's death - physically and spiritually. God WILL have an end to SIN. God will not allow SIN to continue after physical death. If He did, it would be a continuation of that which God promised to end. The pagan notion of an underworld dungeon does not appear in scripture anywhere. Give us chapter and verse if you can, instead of twisting scripture to occult purpose. How long does the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" described in Matthew 13:42 last? That snippet of scripture you picked doesn't tell us. The realization of imminent spiritual death on the part of the unjust may last a blink of an eye or a moment or two. Death will come and many that suffer it will weep EVEN BEFORE it arrives. I have seen it in fact. Many also rant against God for bringing them to that point in time. GOOGLE is a search engine, not a Bible scholar. It will yield results for any search parameter. If you search for the root word you will discover the following from Wikipedia; The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon period. Thus even Google reveals the word hell is pagan in origin, not Biblical. Why do you refuse to acknowledge your own references? I submit you are so eager to dismiss God's Final Judgment upon SIN and those who love it that you can not and will not admit the Bible's promise of divine retribution for it - that God WILL have an end to SIN - forever. As usual, those who love SIN and seek to justify and continue satan's lie that "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) are living a false hope and promoting a demonic doctrine. Those who love SIN continue to subvert the Bible's clear and unequivocal statement that he who sins shall die. (Romans 6:3). Death is the cessation of life. How simple does it have to get to persuade sinners? Fire destroys all that is cast into it. Nothing long survives the touch of flame, including a sinner sentenced to the Second Death in the lake of fire. "What the fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away" - Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1988 Study the Bible to learn its consistent teaching about life death and eternal reward and punishment. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:9 The soul that sins shall surely die. - Ezekiel 18:20 Death means cessation of life both physical and spiritual. This is a simple idea, not rocket science. To be subverted by demonic purpose the simple meaning of words MUST FIRST be redefined. This is true in religion as well as human politics. Beware those who reverse the meaning of words. They are liars one and all. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... I don't agree with anything you have put on the table... You put forwards a lot of scenarios and you build on them with the assumption that many hold the same believes...and you are not providing prophetic and scriptural support.... Introducing too many issues and giving them your enchanted interpretation don't make you right.... Jesus Christ does not need anyone to instruct him what to do..... You cannot paved the path that Jesus has to follow... Jesus Christ never said anything close to what you say...."to save us from "destruction"... He came to saved us from the Devil...and the death inheritance and Hades.... We need to believe and throw our crowns at his feet if we have any... Jesus Christ came to give life and judge him who holds the power of death.... Who boasted that he opens the Gates of Hades and close them and no one can open.... Jesus Christ disarmed the death and the devil and they surrender the Keys of Death and Hades to him...Jesus....rev: 1,18. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineedhugs Posted March 29, 2020 Group: Junior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 103 Content Per Day: 0.06 Reputation: 54 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/13/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 29, 2020 16 hours ago, choir loft said: Beasts in the Bible are properly interpreted to refer to systems nations and organizations unless otherwise stipulated. Therefore, the reference to sheep and goats is a reference to nations - those that are favored in God's eyes and those that are not. The same is true of references to the sea-beast and the earth-beast in Revelation 13. Those beasts represent a religious system and a nation - specifically the Roman Catholic church and the United States. Since it is impossible for a nation or system to experience pain and torture, the beast punishment is figurative, not literal. When eternal punishment is referenced with regard to Final Judgment, it connotes God's hatred of those entities, which will be for all time in perpetuity (perpetuity means forever). God's hatred will be forever, not the punishment. The punishment will be final. Therefore the goats will be destroyed and the sheep blessed. The precedent for this also appears in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. The Bible is self-interpreting. Read it, not the internet. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. God has stated on numerous occasions in Holy Writ that He hates it. God has stated that He intends to make a permanent end to SIN as well as its works. Therefore, man must either CONFESS and REPENT of his SIN and end it or God will end it by the man's death - physically and spiritually. God WILL have an end to SIN. God will not allow SIN to continue after physical death. If He did, it would be a continuation of that which God promised to end. The pagan notion of an underworld dungeon does not appear in scripture anywhere. Give us chapter and verse if you can, instead of twisting scripture to occult purpose. How long does the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" described in Matthew 13:42 last? That snippet of scripture you picked doesn't tell us. The realization of imminent spiritual death on the part of the unjust may last a blink of an eye or a moment or two. Death will come and many that suffer it will weep EVEN BEFORE it arrives. I have seen it in fact. Many also rant against God for bringing them to that point in time. GOOGLE is a search engine, not a Bible scholar. It will yield results for any search parameter. If you search for the root word you will discover the following from Wikipedia; The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon period. Thus even Google reveals the word hell is pagan in origin, not Biblical. Why do you refuse to acknowledge your own references? I submit you are so eager to dismiss God's Final Judgment upon SIN and those who love it that you can not and will not admit the Bible's promise of divine retribution for it - that God WILL have an end to SIN - forever. As usual, those who love SIN and seek to justify and continue satan's lie that "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) are living a false hope and promoting a demonic doctrine. Those who love SIN continue to subvert the Bible's clear and unequivocal statement that he who sins shall die. (Romans 6:3). Death is the cessation of life. How simple does it have to get to persuade sinners? Fire destroys all that is cast into it. Nothing long survives the touch of flame, including a sinner sentenced to the Second Death in the lake of fire. "What the fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away" - Doobie Brothers WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES song of the year 1988 Study the Bible to learn its consistent teaching about life death and eternal reward and punishment. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse! - Galatians 1:9 The soul that sins shall surely die. - Ezekiel 18:20 Death means cessation of life both physical and spiritual. This is a simple idea, not rocket science. To be subverted by demonic purpose the simple meaning of words MUST FIRST be redefined. This is true in religion as well as human politics. Beware those who reverse the meaning of words. They are liars one and all. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Choir loft if you believe in the Christian God and Jesus then you need to accept the bible as Gods inspired word, by faith. Therefore, it would not have lies in it. The bible clearly talks about hell and it being torment. Do not lean on your own understanding but trust what the bible says above your own opinion. Otherwise you will get into trouble. Proverbs 3:5-6 trust in the lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your paths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopixi Seilynam Posted March 29, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,004 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 305 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/12/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 29, 2020 19 hours ago, choir loft said: - If the unjust are given life, then Christ died for nothing. - If the unjust can bribe God to relieve them of their punishment, then Christ died for nothing. Revelation 20:13-15 and Acts 24:15 say that the unjust will be given life. Revelation 20:13-15 says that only those not in the book of life will be thrown into the fire. The fire they get thrown into is described here; Isaiah 10:18, 30:27-31, 33:14, 34:9-10, Matthew 10:28, Revelation 21:8. What they ultimately experience is described as "everlasting" Daniel 12:2 and "everlasting" Isaiah 33:14. Nobody has to bride God, Christ paid all the cost already, all who are alive, whenever they are alive, have the choice to follow Christ. John 14:21-23, John 15:12-17. And because Christ was the plan from since before creation, He purchased eternal life for all His creation before they were even created. As He said, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gamorah, than for the cities that rejected His apostles. That means there are varying degrees of 'punishment' in 'hell'. This current earth gets set on divine fire by God; Revelation 20:9-15, 2 Peter 3:10-12. New Jerusalem, the prepared city, descends as they sky melts into the sea, causing the sea to become lava; 2 Peter 3:10-12, Revelation 6:12-14, 21:1-2. Those worthy to enter the prepared city, enter it, all others remain outside of the city, outside of the city is this current earth, set on eternal fire. That is what we can conclude from scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopixi Seilynam Posted March 29, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,004 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 305 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/12/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) On 3/28/2020 at 2:29 AM, Blood Bought 1953 said: if they misunderstand complex verses and then have to cancel out hundreds of other crystal- clear verses to make their error look like it is Truth "And that He died for all, that they which live should henceforth not live unto themselves, but unto Him that died for them and rose again" 2 Corinthians 5:15 "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto all, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present age" Titus 2:11-12 "And let everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity" 2 Timothy 2:19 "If anyone teach otherwise, and consents not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine that is according to godliness, he is proud knowing nothing" 1 Timothy 6:3-14. ------- Acts 5:31-23, 11:18 Romans 6:1-4 Romans 8:13-14 Romans 10:9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 Paul lists 4 reasons WHY a person is saved starting in verse 10. Thereby defining the kind of belief he is speaking about; a motivational belief. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness" Romans 13:8-10 Ephesians 2:10 through 5:5 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 1 Corinthians 16:22 John 14:21-23 John 15:12-17 Galatians 5:14-24 Philippians 3:18-19 Titus 2:11-12 1 Timothy 6:3-14 2 Timothy 2:19 1 John 2:3-4 1 John 4:8 2 John 1:9-10 ------- Yes, the scripture makes the truth very clear. ------- Hebrews 10 was not in the last reply of mine to you, what was in there is very clear by itself, the direct simple words of Paul; "they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts" Galatians 5:24 Which is a true statement, not a false statement, definitely not dung, it is a statement that defines those that sincerely belong to Christ; they have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts, by His Spirit that is inside of them. The Bible specifically declares that believers are granted self-control; control over their own self; Galatians 5:14-24; by the Holy Spirit of God. And therefore; they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Just as Paul wrote. Edited March 29, 2020 by Desopixi Seilynam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted March 29, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 29, 2020 I am seeing a lot of discussion-derailing tripe over whether or not there is an eternal damnation of suffering and fire for the lost. 1. whatever that disposition, mankind is ALREADY condemned to it This was my simple point. Thanks so very little to those who complicated this with your preconceived dogmas. 2. Since this is where my simple discussion ended up... just remember... you asked for it! Revelation 20 (AV) 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. STOP! Before you go into some diatribe about not being there forever... Human beings are not just bodies, just souls, just spirits. ALL three dispositions must be taken into account. Yes the body will be burned up at once. Yes the soul will cease to exist. Yes the spirit will continue on forever. So, where would you warehouse eternal spirits separate from God and his people? Bible says lake of fire. Anyone who can read sees this. You may not accept it. But there it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted March 29, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,221 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 335 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said: I don't agree with anything you have put on the table... You put forwards a lot of scenarios and you build on them with the assumption that many hold the same believes...and you are not providing prophetic and scriptural support.... Introducing too many issues and giving them your enchanted interpretation don't make you right.... Jesus Christ does not need anyone to instruct him what to do..... You cannot paved the path that Jesus has to follow... Jesus Christ never said anything close to what you say...."to save us from "destruction"... He came to saved us from the Devil...and the death inheritance and Hades.... We need to believe and throw our crowns at his feet if we have any... Jesus Christ came to give life and judge him who holds the power of death.... Who boasted that he opens the Gates of Hades and close them and no one can open.... Jesus Christ disarmed the death and the devil and they surrender the Keys of Death and Hades to him...Jesus....rev: 1,18. 2 hours ago, JohnD said: who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light - 1 Tim 6:16 ONLY GOD is immortal. The Bible says so. The natural tendency of humans is to die - body, brain and spirit. "they die just like animals" - Psalm 49:12 49:20 "humans and animals have the SAME DESTINY" - Ecclesiastes 3:19 NO the spirit does NOT continue forever. Nowhere does the Bible say such a thing. It is, however, inferred by misguided illiterate folks who believe pagan myth over Biblical truth. Your assertions are VERY confused because they are based upon illogic and illiterate understanding of the Bible. "human beings are not just bodies, just souls, just spirits," you write. I need to interject the correct definition of terms here. You write souls, but don't know the meaning of the word. Greek philosophers defined the human as having three components; body mind and spirit. TOGETHER this tripartite collection is called a SOUL. On the other hand, the word soul can be interchanged with spirit provided it's used in correct context. You did none of it, probably because no one has instructed you on what context means. Look up the meaning of the word context and learn a useful definition. The illogic of your assertion begins with the statement a human is a collection of three parts - a soul composed of body mind and spirit. Correct! You then destroy your own logic by stating later the body and mind are destroyed, but the spirit goes on. Separation of the three is unBiblical. Jesus taught the whole thing can be DESTROYED - body mind and spirit together. The Bible promises a resurrection of the righteous soul - ALL THREE COMPONENTS. The righteous are resurrected as a complete soul - body mind and spirit. Not a disembodied spirit. How do we know this? Jesus demonstrated the unity of body mind and spirit when He was raised. He wasn't raised a spirit only. Your assertion adopts pagan illogic and myth. Your words prove NOTHING. You wrote: "So, where would you warehouse eternal spirits separate from God and his people? Bible says lake of fire. Anyone who can read sees this." Apparently you need to revisit the book of Revelation and READ it again. The lake of fire described in Revelation is called the Second Death, not a storage facility. Fire destroys. Death implies a cessation of life. Go to a cemetery and see how many people writhe in pain in the grave. Not one because they're all DEAD. Twisting words is the devil's business. God is not the author of confusion. Nobody, not even God, warehouses anything in fire. Roman Catholic doctrine was adopted from centuries old pagan myths about the underworld - the afterlife. None of it is Biblical, but Protestants who march in lock-step with Vatican dogma continue to accept Roman rubbish as gospel. Hades, which was originally a Latin translation of the Hebrew word sheol, was originally the pagan god of the underworld. Hades was a person, not a place. Look it up. The false translation was re-translated from latin to English, the first version of which was the King James Bible. It stuck because illiterate people didn't bother to check it out. Hell was originally an anglo-saxon (pagan English) word hel, which also meant the underworld. Look it up and learn something. The KJV used the ancient pagan version of hel to represent sheol also. Compare different translations of the same verses. Look it up and learn something. Now is also a good time for you to investigate the meaning of the Hebrew word sheol. It will tell you much about the meaning of Jesus' words as well as the apostles - all of whom were Jews. The word gehenna, when employed by Bible translations more indicative of correctness, refers to a garbage dump outside the south gate of Jerusalem in Jesus' time. Garbage thrown into the city dump was consumed by fire and maggots - as it is to this day. The garbage is consumed, but the flames and worms continue. Do you actually know anybody who LIVES in the city dump? The idea of a storage locker or closet for the newly dead comes from the Catholic version of the Apocrypha. In the Catholic dogma the newly dead are shut up in a closet with a name tag on the door. The tag reads, "Purgatory". The doctrine of Purgatory was further developed and popularized by Dante Alighieri in his book THE DIVINE COMEDY. The work was intended as satire, but because it was such a fine story it was adopted as truth by church leaders and laity alike. According to Catholic/Protestant myth, spirits of the dead (not souls) are locked up until BAILED OUT by BRIBE money given to God via the local priest. They do it to this day. Look it up and learn something. Yes boys and girls the whole sad subject of purgatory and eternal torment is really about spiritual extortion, not salvation or damnation. It's all about the money. Money, money, money. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Can God be bribed? He cannot. (Deuteronomy 10:17) If you buy a slice of the afterlife bovine excrement shoveled out by the Roman Catholic church, you must buy it all. But the Bible doesn't say anything like that at all. ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL. who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light. - 1 Tim 6:16 Humans die. "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" - Genesis 6:3a THE GOOD NEWS is that God has chosen to give of His immortal life to those who REPENT and CONFESS their SINs and accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior. ONLY THE JUST get to live forever. Nowhere does the Bible promise immortality to the wicked. Men torture. God does not. You ascribe the villainy of mankind to God? You err wickedly in your assertions. Jesus isn't the dungeon master of a subterranean concentration camp. The Bible says the wicked will be utterly and permanently destroyed without hope of parole or bail. God hates SIN and has promised to destroy it and all its works, including those who love it. God has promise to grant immortality to those who deny SIN. How about concentrating on the hope of immortal life in Christ Jesus and the FACT that He will not allow the Second Death to touch those who are His own? THAT is something to really holler about. Yes it is. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited March 29, 2020 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted March 29, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 70 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,221 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 335 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted March 29, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Ineedhugs said: Choir loft if you believe in the Christian God and Jesus then you need to accept the bible as Gods inspired word, by faith. Therefore, it would not have lies in it. The bible clearly talks about hell and it being torment. Do not lean on your own understanding but trust what the bible says above your own opinion. Otherwise you will get into trouble. Proverbs 3:5-6 trust in the lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him and he will direct your paths. Which Bible are you referring to? Yours? You are no expert, friend. It is grossly inappropriate to insult someone else's relationship with Christ. Your Biblical illiteracy and attitude of spiritual superiority is disgusting. The Bible does NOT speak of eternal torment. Show me chapter and verse. You cannot because it does not - not at least unless you spin it according to Catholic doctrine. The Bible speaks of utter everlasting destruction, which is totally different. The pattern of the destruction of the kingdom of Sodom is a precedent - a pattern. (Jude 1:7) How many of the residents of Sodom suffer the pains of fire today? None, because they died suddenly and for all time in the fires of divine judgment. The dead don't keep dying. They die and that's it. Kapish? Go to a Christian bookstore or Amazon's web site. In those places you will find many different translations of the Bible. Why are there so many? Have you ever asked yourself that question? The reason is that the ORIGINAL words were Hebrew in the Tanakh (Old Testament). Tradition tells us the New Testament was written in Greek. In the 5th century, the entire collection was translated into a single language for the first time. That first collection language was Latin and it was called The Vulgate. Look it up and learn something. Some scholars now believe the entire New Testament was also originally written in Hebrew. They've come to this conclusion by the frequent use of Hebrew idioms which pass across translational barriers. Have a look at the gospel of Matthew. Hebrew idioms have been transliterated into English where almost every sentence begins with the word AND. It makes for difficult reading because that's the way Hebrew is intended to be read originally. It's a Hebrew idiom, which when translated into English, word for word, makes for difficult reading. Greek isn't like that. Are you familiar with the Greek language? Look up the meaning of the word idiom and learn something. The first time a Bible translation was commissioned in English it was called THE GREAT BIBLE and was a conglomeration of the Vulgate (Latin), Greek and German translations. The most well known attempt to translate directly from Hebrew and Greek into English resulted in the King James Version. Unfortunately the KJV is riddled with English phrases and cultural English idioms. For instance, the pagan anglo-saxon word hel was used to substitute for the Hebrew word sheol. Hel or hell as it came to be known was a pagan reference to the underworld, while sheol has a completely different meaning. Look up sheol and learn something. Other words such as Hades (a pagan god of the underworld - a person not a place) and gehenna (Hebrew for 'city dump') were also mistranslated from the original. There are very many translations of the Bible from the original into English because English isn't the language of God's chosen oracle - the Jews. Look up the word oracle while you are busy learning other words. Or don't and remain illiterate. Look up the word illiterate as well. It's not intended as an insult. It's a statement of learning level - a fact. There are many translations of the Bible because modern scholars have learned that idioms have complicated the text. Worst of all is that Catholic dogma and anti-semitism, which is in lock-step with Protestant doctrine, has insinuated itself into the Bible to promote the agenda of those who do not approve of the Bible's intent. The most well known of these is the Scofield Reference Bible. It's notorious in that it promotes several false doctrines while presuming to be an accurate translation. I wouldn't touch that book with a ten foot pole. Neither should you. The story goes on, but the bottom line here is that one should study study study. When illiterate people fixate themselves on popular religious slogans and buzz words they do themselves a disservice. They forsake study for the lazy comfort of familiar inaccurate phrases, myth and prejudice - not truth. God did not intend this when He gave us His Word. Gleaning truth requires work and study - something few people devote themselves to these last days. that's me, hollering from the choir loft..... Edited March 29, 2020 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Bought 1953 Posted March 30, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,726 Content Per Day: 2.86 Reputation: 6,258 Days Won: 5 Joined: 12/03/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted March 30, 2020 16 hours ago, Desopixi Seilynam said: "And that He died for all, that they which live should henceforth not live unto themselves, but unto Him that died for them and rose again" 2 Corinthians 5:15 "The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto all, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly righteously and godly in this present age" Titus 2:11-12 "And let everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity" 2 Timothy 2:19 "If anyone teach otherwise, and consents not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine that is according to godliness, he is proud knowing nothing" 1 Timothy 6:3-14. ------- Acts 5:31-23, 11:18 Romans 6:1-4 Romans 8:13-14 Romans 10:9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 Paul lists 4 reasons WHY a person is saved starting in verse 10. Thereby defining the kind of belief he is speaking about; a motivational belief. "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness" Romans 13:8-10 Ephesians 2:10 through 5:5 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 1 Corinthians 16:22 John 14:21-23 John 15:12-17 Galatians 5:14-24 Philippians 3:18-19 Titus 2:11-12 1 Timothy 6:3-14 2 Timothy 2:19 1 John 2:3-4 1 John 4:8 2 John 1:9-10 ------- Yes, the scripture makes the truth very clear. ------- Hebrews 10 was not in the last reply of mine to you, what was in there is very clear by itself, the direct simple words of Paul; "they that are Christs have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts" Galatians 5:24 Which is a true statement, not a false statement, definitely not dung, it is a statement that defines those that sincerely belong to Christ; they have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts, by His Spirit that is inside of them. The Bible specifically declares that believers are granted self-control; control over their own self; Galatians 5:14-24; by the Holy Spirit of God. And therefore; they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. Just as Paul wrote. Are you trying to make the case that a Christian never Lusts? That is preposterous .....I heard about a Born-Again Believer - a man that was “ in Christ”—That even lusted after his own Mother ( step mother , perhaps) and fulfilled his lust. As with all Children Of God, the man was chastised . If “ crucifying the Flesh” means we no longer give in to our old Flesh Nature.......why the need for any Chastisement ? All those that Trust in the Gospel Of Grace are considered “ Righteous”..... it is an “imputation”.Those That Trust in the Gospel are “ in Christ” and God “ reckons” us “ dead to sin”and sees us as those who have “ crucified the flesh”. There is no such thing as Sinless Perfection in a Body made of Flesh.The “ crucifixion Of the Flesh” is a part of Sanctification, and like being “Righteous”, it won't be full manifested until we receive our New Bodies.As Christians, we LIVE in the Spirit, but we do not always WALK in the Spirit......we are in a war , and not a war against flesh and blood ......we are in a War against Evil that is on Invisable to us. “For The Flesh Lusts against the Spirit , and the Spirit against the Flesh, and these are contrary to one another, so that you do NOT do the things that you wish” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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