The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:18 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning your statement, "replacement theology is worse than that,"  I'm thinking .  Why would you saying something like that in your reply to what I've put forth?

It's the insistence on the pretrib scenario. In my experience here and researching  every pretrib adherent is both dispensational and supersessionist. They have to be. The 'church' must have a special status under pretrib doctrine in that it is more holy than everyone else, that the Jews alone are the object of punishment, that the extant 'church' avoids all ills while lesser beings do not, and receives a secret imminent exit unavailable to their Jewish brothers, who only deserve punishment, and the potential believers in Jesus who must endure what pretrib classifies as the wrath of God.

Dispensationalism and supersessionism are the bedrock of pretrib and both are false. Know how I know that? Raised pretrib. Spent many years increasing my knowledge of pretrib. Know what else? The doctrine has changed to combat the pressure of scriptural assaults the doctrine can't ignore. Know what doesn't change? Jesus words. The comparison is the death of the pretrib doctrine.

Your take on what is required to be pre-trib does not reflect any mentality that I have.  First of all, the thing of being subject to God's wrath is what non-believers will face, whether Jew or Gentile.  Those who have been saved are not destined to be subjects of God's wrath, again, whether Jew or Gentile.

According to what Scripture bears out, the purpose of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy is spelled out in Daniel 9:24.  There, Daniel writes this that was told to him:

 24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

According to my interpretation of Scripture and what history bears out, 69 weeks of this prophecy have been fulfilled.  The last, or 70th Week is yet to be fulfilled.  But, the purpose of this last week is not to subject the saved of the Israelite nation to God's punishment or wrath.  No, the purpose of this last week is to fulfill to completion what the Seventy Weeks prophecy was all about in the first place---again, what is spelled out in Daniel 9:24.

Further, a child of God post-Cross is not more of a child of God than a child of God pre-cross.  In the OT days, there were both Jews and Gentiles that were children of God, and now, in these NT days, there are both Jews and Gentiles that are children of God.  To me, it is quite apparent that from the beginning, God's desire has been to redeem humanity period, and His plan for this redemption has always revolved around the Promised Seed (Gen. 3:15), the Second Adam (I Cor. 15:21-22, 45), God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ (Col. 1:15, 2:9;  II Cor. 5:19).  If God had not repeatedly intervened in the affairs of corrupted fallen humanity, there would have come a time when none would have any longer found grace in His eyes, and there would have ceased to be a line by which the Promised Seed could come.  It just bespeaks the extent of our corrupted fallen condition, whatever our race or nationality.

God intervened in the days of Noah and then He intervened at the Tower of Babel.  I would suggest that in the days of Abraham, things were again not far removed from what they were in the days of Noah.  Even Abraham's people were idolaters, but not Abraham.  Because of Abraham's devotion to God, God determined to make a covenant with him, that through his seed, all nations of the earth might yet be blessed.  By God's continued interventions, and on account of His covenant promise to Abraham, the Israelite Nation eventually came into being, and ultimately, the Promised Seed was born into the world.  Again, I would suggest that this would have never happened if God had not continued to intervene.  Interestingly, the Israelite Nation didn't get it, God's chosen Nation didn't get it, and it ended up a party to the crucifixion of the Promised Seed.  Again, it all bespeaks the extent of the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.  But, it also bespeaks the love of God that He would still intervene for the sake of the entity that He made in His likeness and image.  For God so loved the world...(Jn. 3:16).

With the resurrection of the Promised Seed, and God's determination to---by His Holy Spirit---make man's heart His temple, the era of the Christian Church came into being.  Now, it is no longer by the Israelite Nation, but by the Christian Church (ALL who are saved) that God's covenant promise to Abraham is carried forth.  It is the Christian Church that is the herald of this good news, the message of the Gospel.  To me, it is all so very interesting.

Well, I hadn't planned on writing all this tonight.  And certainly, much more can be said.  How much longer is God going to let this world continue?  I would suggest that until Heaven will be populated to the extent of His desire.  God knows just exactly what He is working to accomplish, and all the ifs, ands, and buts.  Presently, we are living out the reality of what He already knows.  For me, it has been an engaging thought to consider what God foreknew about me.  I would like to ask anyone reading this:  What did God foreknow about you?  Did He know that you would receive Him as your Savior...that you would love Him in return, seeing He first loved you?  Or, did He foreknow of you otherwise?  Everything about this world revolves primarily around God's desire to love and to be loved, and that by an entity made in His likeness and image.  That's just the way love goes, and God is love (I Jn. 4:7-21, esp. vss. 8 and 16).  Some, when they think about this world, wonder how that God could be love, and make a world such as this.  The thinking of the atheist is often that, if God is perfect and all powerful, He would have made the best possible world, and it is apparent that this world can be improved upon, so there must not be a God.  The following response to that thinking has long resonated with me.  It goes something like this:  "It is apparent that this world is not the best possible world, but it is the best possible way to the best possible world."  That world is Heaven, and we that go there will be loved by God, and we will love God, not as robots, but as free entities, made in His likeness and image.    

Forgive me Diaste, I didn't mean to forget about you and our discussion, and I certainly don't mean to derail my own thread.  Just following my heart the best I know how.  Annnyway, the thing of the rapture of the Church, I don't see it having to do with protecting the Church from something that it is too good to go through at all.  Rather, it's merely a thing of the fulfilling of what's left of Daniel's 70th Week.  And, I might add, part of what might be considered closure for this present world.  God's gonna wrap all of this up one of these days.  And, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, young or old, red or yellow, black or white, the important thing is for one to know that he or she is saved.  And be it known, all who are saved are God's children, loved equally by God, and there's not gonna be any segregation in Heaven.

It's getting really late for me and my old eyes are getting blurry, but I had this one other thought to clarify something more before I turn in for the night.  You have repeatedly mentioned that those of the common pre-trib position see all of Daniel's 70th Week as being the wrath of God.  While I believe it is apparent that God's wrath will be poured out in that time, that is different than throughout that time.  Moreover, whatever the case, God is quite able to protect the saved in the midst of whatever is befalling the unsaved.  And, whatever befalls the unsaved, God's desire would be that it would bring them to repentance, but, we see that it won't, even during the pouring out of the vials (Rev. 16:9-11).  Again, it just bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.

Edit add---Diaste, I'm sure glad I didn't lose this post, like I did that other one the other day. 

Edited April 9, 2021 by not an echo
Edit add---

[WilliamL]

On 4/2/2021 at 12:41 PM, not an echo said:

Hello WilliamL,

Was just wondering how you would have Daniel 9:24-27 to actually read.  Could you give us like the WLV (WilliamL Version) of it?

Explanations for every word can be found in my 7-part blog series starting here:

38. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 1: Verse 24

Begins a seven-part series about this highly-controversial prophecy. A detailed translation from the Hebrew is provided for each verse, with the relevant Hebrew grammar explained, beginning here with verse 24.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy,

and [Kethib] (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings or [Qere] (in order) to cause to complete sin/sin offering,

and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and (in order) to close up vision and prophecy,

and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

Daniel 9:25 “Now you should know, and you should cause to be understood: from a going forth of a word/command (for the purpose) to cause to restore and to build Jerusalem unto an Anointed One, a leader, shall be seven weeks and 62 weeks. You [that is, Israel] shall return, and she/it [Jerusalem] shall be built: street(?) and wall(?), even in the distress of the times.”

Daniel 9:26 “Then after the 62 weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself; and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with a flood of attackers, and unto an end of battle/warfare, desolations being decreed.”

Daniel 9:27 “And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/31/2021 at 1:56 PM, not an echo said:

I keep getting the impression that there is an undercurrent with your replies to what I have put forth that connects way more with your rejection of the common pre-trib view than it does with anything that I have actually said.  I feel that it is needful for me to keep reinforcing that mine is A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation.

Still pretrib though. Can't make a gold ring from dross.

Now Diaste, I could say the same thing about your post-trib persuasion, but what kind of weight would that kind of statement carry?  Aw, shucks, I get it, you're just being humorous!

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Whereas the common view would have the seals as being inseparable from Daniel's 70th Week, I don't see any evidence of Daniel's 70th Week until Revelation 11:1-3.  I believe Scripture and history consistently bears out (and will bear out) that the seals pertain to the post-cross era, which will continue until the NT Church is raptured.  This means that I understand all seven seals as pertaining exclusively to this era.  How in?

I understand the first four seals as being opened before the close of the first century, and the activity of the four horsemen as having continued from then even until this very day of 3/31/21.  When understood within the bounds that Scripture affords, the 5th, 6th, and 7th Seals can be opened today, 3/31/21.  If today were the day, the 5th Seal could have been opened this morning (on any given day, I see it as being open), with the cry of the martyrs appropriately replied to in accord with the narrative.  After this, the 6th Seal could be opened (even as I am now typing), and the Sign Appearance of Christ (which includes the rapture) could take place---easily.  Within the next hours, or even the next minutes, the 7th Seal could be opened as well.  There is no Scriptural bound that prohibits such a view.

Joel disappoints here. The 1st and 3rd trump have sounded by the time of the A of D. The idea the 6th seal is the nest to open puts us already past the midpoint of the week as the 6th seal is the sign of Jesus coming. Per Matt 24 this is only after the A of D and the GT. 

First of all, I believe you are trying to fit some of Joel's prophetic puzzle pieces into a place where they do not go.  There may be some color similarities, but it takes more than that for a puzzle to come together correctly.  The cause of the locust destruction spoken of in Joel is not the same as the cause of the destruction spoken of in The Revelation.  Whether literal locusts or an army, nothing of this sort is spoken of in connection with the trumpets of The Revelation until the 5th Trumpet, and then, it has nothing to do with the flora of the earth.  Quite to the contrary, "it was commanded them (the locusts) that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree;  but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

Concerning the last half of your reply, my first thought I will borrow from you:  The Revelation "disappoints here."  If you are allowing that the 6th Seal is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), where do you locate Christ's Second Advent in a post-trib view?  According to my understanding of what you believe, the "great sound of a trumpet" in Matthew 24:31 would have to be the 7th Trumpet.  But, if this happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, what about the five month period (Rev. 9:5, 10) where the locusts of the 5th Trumpet are not allowed to hurt those with "the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4), meaning those sealed with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:3)?  You already have a conglomeration Diaste, and we haven't even got to the 7th Seal.  I just can't get the puzzle pieces to come together for me in this way, not even if I allow what I feel to be the forcing of a piece.  And, there's a lot more pieces that these.

I would encourage you to visit again how Jesus' Olivet Discourse should be understood, all the while being mindful of Mark and Luke's accounts of it and The Revelation.

I think for the moment of Luke's parallel account of Christ's Sign Appearance and how it reads, from chapter 21:

 25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;  and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity;  the sea and the waves roaring;

 26  Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:  for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

 27  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This reads like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal.  And then, notice the very next verses in Luke's account:

 28  And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh.

Now, you know that those of the common pre-trib persuasion interpret the coming of Christ in verse 27 to be of His Second Advent.  But, if this is so, verse 28 does not fit.  Do you see it?  When someone is present, their return is not pending, or "nigh."  Verse 28 will only fit if verses 25-27 are understood to be of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven",  which is what Jesus refers to this as according to Matthew's account (Matt. 24:30).  When the different accounts of Jesus' discourse are compared, everything comes into better focus, as should be expected.  Then, when The Revelation is brought along side, it is like The Key.  And, according to The Key, we don't have any evidence of the A of D or the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week until Revelation 11:1-3.  Compare Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20, and II Thessalonians 2:3-4.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

As I see the Seven Sealed Book being all about the Day of the Lord, I believe an appropriate title for this book could be THE DAY OF THE LORD.  In accord with my understanding of the seals, I see the seals as representing what will take place leading up to the Day of the Lord.  When it is understood that the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, this makes the cry of those left behind in Revelation 6:17 true indeed:  "For the great day of His wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand?"

Left behind? There's that dispensational supersessionist Hal Lindsey, Walvoord doctrine again.

Oops, I meant to say, "those remaining on the earth..." 

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Now, let me see if I can go a little further before having to sign off this afternoon.  There is also no Scriptural bounds that would prohibit the understanding that the first four trumpets can be sounded the same day as the Seven Sealed Book is opened.  Of course, the "third part" destruction that occurs with the sounding of these four trumpets is huge.  But, if this third part destruction is hemisphere specific---and the hemisphere is our Western Hemisphere---huge is an understatement.  If you have been able to read my other threads, I have pointed out that the geography of our Western Hemisphere represents the third part of the earth to within less than one-percent.  When you stand back and look at the possibility that both the Church and what is in our Western Hemisphere can be taken out of the picture on the same day, the prophetic implications of this are immense.  Consider:  This would mean that as the Church and what is in our Western Hemisphere were not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 Weeks of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy, neither will these be a part of the 70th Week.  Talk about a STAGE RESET!

Moreover, if the only remaining population of the earth at the end of Daniel's 70th Week exists in the hemisphere of which Israel is a part, this takes all the mystery away for how that "every eye" will simultaneously behold Christ at His Second Coming.

Concerning the 5th Trumpet and part of the period of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 9:13-21), I see these connecting with the final preparations of the stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  As soon as the stage is fully ready, the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" (Rev. 10 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10), and the curtain is opened to reveal the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:1-3ff).  Consider again Revelation 11:1 with Matthew 24:15 and II Thessalonians 2:3-4.

There are a lot of assumptions here born of arguments from silence. There would have to be two or three thread to deal with them. 

However, both Joel and Matthew contradict the above. Trumps sound before the A of D or in conjunction with. Any scenario that has the first 5 seals opened put us past the midpoint of the week.

Concerning your first sentence, for me, it's a matter of putting 2 and 2 together.  Though nothing is said of 4, that's what 2 and 2 add up to.  Diaste, some would say that anything is possible.  With this, I would have to strongly disagree.  But, if it is something that doesn't conflict with Scripture, it's worth looking into.  Moreover, you can't just up and dismiss the record of history and the geography of God's earth.  Well, you may be able to, but I can't. 

Concerning your second sentence, I presently have some 15 threads concerning my different pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture interpretation.  I could certainly use a little more time to stay on top of them.  One of these days!   So far, I feel my interpretations have held up as well as anything else out there.  Well, to be quite honest, much better.  But, that's what we all think, huh?  Really, I prefer to think of my interpretations as making a worthy contribution to all of our understandings.  And, I know we're back and forth some, but I hope you don't take me as being overly argumentative.  It seems that mostly what I find myself doing is trying to clarify, which isn't surprising, when something different is put forth.

Concerning the middle sentence of your last paragraph, I agree, "Trumps sound before the A of D or in conjunction with",  I just like to go into more detail.  Concerning the bookend sentences to your last paragraph, well, you know I'm in disagreement here.  Show me Scripture, rightly divided.

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/3/2021 at 6:40 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

 

For me, this understanding is in such harmony with Scripture that it is Divine.  I mean by this, that it came from God, through the leadership of His Holy Spirit, in accord with what Jesus said to His first disciples in John 16:13, the night before He was crucified.

Show me something that is more from God Diaste...

Okay...because the claim is made it came from God is nothing short of sloganeering in this case. Every one that adheres to some doctrine claims the same thing and it's not any kind of proof. Written documentation is proof. Every rapture doctrine says the same thing. That's a real problem, don't you agree? Most telling for me is the dogged reliance on personal belief. Most just say, "I believe...." and then to them it takes on the weight of holy writ. You're convinced. I see that. 

 

The Bereans searched the scriptures for proof, they didn't believe Paul's claims until the written word confirmed; and Paul used the same words as you did above. So have hundreds of others. 

Now Diaste, I asked you to "Show me something that is more from God" and you only denied any validity connected with my understandings.  Do you believe that anyone is understanding correctly?  Do you believe that you are understanding correctly?  Do you believe that anyone can understand correctly?  Do you believe that we can get closer to understanding correctly?  Do you believe that God ever speaks to your heart?

Rhetoric aside, I hope that you will realize by what I say that I do understand where you are coming from.  I know that some when they say similar would suggest that their understanding is infallible.  That is not me.  But, for me, what I have come to realize concerning the subject of the rapture harmonizes so much better with Scripture than anything else I have had exposure to that I feel God has been in it.  I just can't help feeling that way.  Important to note in what I said are the words, "For me".  I also said that in the post above that you replied to.  For me, what I am understanding is something that God opened my eyes to as I sought Him in my study of His Word.  If you said the like to me, I could understand exactly where you are coming from.  But, I would know that that wouldn't make you necessarily right.  And, my saying that don't necessarily make me right.  I may be wrong.  I freely acknowledge that.  I chose the letters imaybewrong for my email address!  I don't believe that I am wrong, but I know that I may be.  I understand that I may not be understanding God as clearly as He would like for me to.  But, I'm tuning in the best I know how.  Isn't that what we are all doing, or should be doing?  I listen to what other brothers and sisters in the Lord say (even you), and I talk to God about whether I need to tweak the tuner of my spiritual receiver any.    

Yes, in accord with what you say, I'm convinced.  Quite naturally, I believe I should be, until I'm shown something to be more truthful than what I am presently convinced of.

So, again Diaste, show me something that is more from God.  Let's do diligence to know the truth.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

41 minutes ago, not an echo said:

  Do you believe that anyone is understanding correctly?  Do you believe that you are understanding correctly?  Do you believe that anyone can understand correctly?  Do you believe that we can get closer to understanding correctly?  Do you believe that God ever speaks to your heart?

Well, no, not me. None of us. One of the things that has become apparent to me is just how little understanding we all have when it comes to things above. When all this started for me I heard one thing that changed my life; "Jesus is coming back, you know." My cousin said that. From that moment long ago that is the one thing I wanted to know, the only thing that really mattered to me, and to this day I know when, and I don't know when.  Seeing through a glass darkly is most we can achieve. We can get closer to understanding and we can understand a great deal, but only about very limited topics when it comes to the things of God and especially so eschatology. 

But we don't KNOW. Only God KNOWS. We hear, hopefully. Seven times Jesus said, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

I'm convinced that when we believe we know we fail to hear. A full cup cannot be filled, as the saying goes. From all that I read I understand we are called to listen.

I think the key to hearing the Lord when He speaks is to understand we may not understand. We of course understand full well the need for salvation and who saves and how that was accomplished but even in that, just from poking around the corners of this forum people don't have the grasp of the above, some deny parts it and some all of it. 

How can we come to the conclusion a person has understanding about eschatology as a whole when there are 10 different schools of thought on the subject? Even narrowed down to a single event like the rapture there are 5: pre, post, mid, pre-wrath and none. I'm convinced not all of them are true and equally certain one is correct. We don't debate the fact we debate the timing. So we understand the fact of the rapture but we are far apart on the full understanding or we would all be saying the same thing.

I think Jesus knew understanding would be a difficult thing. In Matt 24 He said,"...let whoso read understand." As if understanding is kept from us and a special request is made on our behalf to understand one thing. I find that humbling and profound.

Certainly God speaks to us. We hear the voice of our conscience all the time so there's always that. If you mean something like, "God spoke me and told me the truth." then a new epistemology follows from that I would be quite cautious if it cannot be verified by the written word. The one thing in all this I know for certain, with perfect clarity, fully convinced and unshaken; the written word is the Truth. 

I don't understand these things. I read and repeat. I cannot KNOW, I can only listen.

 

41 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Rhetoric aside, I hope that you will realize by what I say that I do understand where you are coming from.  I know that some when they say similar would suggest that their understanding is infallible.  That is not me.  But, for me, what I have come to realize concerning the subject of the rapture harmonizes so much better with Scripture than anything else I have had exposure to that I feel God has been in it.  I just can't help feeling that way.  Important to note in what I said are the words, "For me."  I also said that in the post above that you replied to.  For me, what I am understanding is something that God opened my eyes to as I sought Him in my study of His Word.  If you said the like to me, I could understand exactly where you are coming from.  But, I would know that that wouldn't make you necessarily right.  And, my saying that don't necessarily make me right.  I may be wrong. 

After all this time another thing I have come to understand is an obligation to others to say the right thing in this. So in God's domain of His truth passed to us we are charged with speaking the thing that is right. Our obligation is to honor God first, speaking His truth, and to let that truth be heard in the ears of others. Not our truth, God's. Then we can never be wrong. That truth is contained in the scriptures

41 minutes ago, not an echo said:

 

I freely acknowledge that.  I chose the letters imaybewrong for my email address!  I don't believe that I am wrong, but I know that I may be.  I understand that I may not be understanding God as clearly as He would like for me to.  But, I'm tuning in the best I know how.  Isn't that what we are all doing, or should be doing?  I listen to what other brothers and sisters in the Lord say (even you), and I talk to God about whether I need to tweak the tuner of my spiritual receiver any.    

Yes, in accord with what you say, I'm convinced.  Quite naturally, I believe I should be, until I'm shown something to be more truthful than what I am presently convinced of.

I don't know about tuning in. A person can tune into a lot of things that are not good.  I may be old fashioned and simple but if it cannot be verified by the Word, or is prohibited by the Word, then the voice we hear may be our own or the voice of the enemy. So if you mean a general 'spiritual tuning' I'm dubious. If a request has been made and an answer is heard and is verifiable that's a different story. 

For me if I hear a voice and scripture confirms, well. If not it's rebuked. So then to be specific in this, I find timing for the rapture in scripture in two places. What I heard as voices was incorrect when compared to the written word. 

 

41 minutes ago, not an echo said:

So, again Diaste, show me something that is more from God.  Let's do diligence to know the truth.  

I don't know what you mean here. All I have to cite is the written word. We have to trust what is put to paper is truthfully correct. That the best I have.

[Diaste]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your first sentence, for me, it's a matter of putting 2 and 2 together.  Though nothing is said of 4, that's what 2 and 2 add up to.  Diaste, some would say that anything is possible.  With this, I would have to strongly disagree.  But, if it is something that doesn't conflict with Scripture, it's worth looking into.  Moreover, you can't just up and dismiss the record of history and the geography of God's earth.  Well, you may be able to, but I can't. 

You mean arguing from silence? 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the middle sentence of your last paragraph, I agree, "Trumps sound before the A of D or in conjunction with," I just like to go into more detail.  Concerning the bookend sentences to your last paragraph, well, you know I'm in disagreement here.  Show me Scripture, rightly divided.

If by 'rightly divided' you mean 'to handle correctly' I'm good with that.

One of the things I say I feel falls on deaf ears is, "All the evidence is valid and it all must be considered and added to the whole for an accurate conclusion."

I read a story about a 40 year old cold case that was reopened and solved because of single bit of cloth. One small piece of truth shed the light of understanding on a complex case after many years.

Joel 1 explains the water is undrinkable and the grasses and pasture are gone at the time the meat and drink offering are cut off from the house of God, and this before the great and terrible day of the Lord which at this point is near.

This truth of all the grass and pasture gone, the trees scorched and the undrinkable water is the 1st and third trumps at the time of the A of D and near to the great darkness of the terrible day of the Lord. 

This is truth that must be added to the knowledge base of eschatology. 

[not an echo]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 4/2/2021 at 1:41 PM, not an echo said:

Hello WilliamL,

Was just wondering how you would have Daniel 9:24-27 to actually read.  Could you give us like the WLV (WilliamL Version) of it?

Explanations for every word can be found in my 7-part blog series starting here:

38. Daniel 9:24-27 Examined, Part 1: Verse 24

Begins a seven-part series about this highly-controversial prophecy. A detailed translation from the Hebrew is provided for each verse, with the relevant Hebrew grammar explained, beginning here with verse 24.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1568-daniel-924-27-examined-part-1-verse-24/

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed/determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

(in order) to utterly restrain/restrict the rebellion/transgression/apostasy,

and [Kethib] (in order) to close up/seal up sins/sin offerings or [Qere] (in order) to cause to complete sin/sin offering,

and (in order) to utterly atone for iniquity, and to cause to bring in everlasting righteousness,

and (in order) to close up vision and prophecy,

and (in order) to anoint a Most Holy One.”

Daniel 9:25 “Now you should know, and you should cause to be understood: from a going forth of a word/command (for the purpose) to cause to restore and to build Jerusalem unto an Anointed One, a leader, shall be seven weeks and 62 weeks. You [that is, Israel] shall return, and she/it [Jerusalem] shall be built: street(?) and wall(?), even in the distress of the times.”

Daniel 9:26 “Then after the 62 weeks, Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself; and people of a leader/commander, the one coming in, he shall cause to destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end shall be with a flood of attackers, and unto an end of battle/warfare, desolations being decreed.”

Daniel 9:27 “And he shall cause to prevail/confirm (or, shall make strong) a covenant for the multitude one week; and in the midst/middle of the week, he shall cause to cease blood sacrifice and offering. And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer, even until a (the) consummation/complete end so having been decreed shall be poured out upon a desolator.”

Hello again WilliamL,

I can appreciate your blog, and the Daniel 9:24-27 passage deserves its own thread(s).  However, I'm still wondering how you would have the Daniel 9:24-27 passage to actually read.  Could you give us a clean WLV (WilliamL Version) of it?  According to my understanding, the Daniel 9:24-27 passage is the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve, with chapter two certainly holding relevance as well.  I have never heard my perspective on this put forth (the understanding of Dan. 9:24-27 being the hub), and I must avoid getting into that on this thread---other than to encourage the reading of Daniel with this in mind.  But, I would still like to see that WLV. 

Meanwhile, the four horsemen are still riding, plying Satan's craft as his henchmen.  Concerning the rider on the white horse of the first seal, I would encourage the reading of my OP (and beyond) once more...