The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[not an echo]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/7/2021 at 2:31 AM, not an echo said:

  Do you believe that anyone is understanding correctly?  Do you believe that you are understanding correctly?  Do you believe that anyone can understand correctly?  Do you believe that we can get closer to understanding correctly?  Do you believe that God ever speaks to your heart?

Well, no, not me. None of us. One of the things that has become apparent to me is just how little understanding we all have when it comes to things above. When all this started for me I heard one thing that changed my life; "Jesus is coming back, you know." My cousin said that. From that moment long ago that is the one thing I wanted to know, the only thing that really mattered to me, and to this day I know when, and I don't know when.  Seeing through a glass darkly is most we can achieve. We can get closer to understanding and we can understand a great deal, but only about very limited topics when it comes to the things of God and especially so eschatology. 

But we don't KNOW. Only God KNOWS. We hear, hopefully. Seven times Jesus said, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."

I'm convinced that when we believe we know we fail to hear. A full cup cannot be filled, as the saying goes. From all that I read I understand we are called to listen.

I think the key to hearing the Lord when He speaks is to understand we may not understand. We of course understand full well the need for salvation and who saves and how that was accomplished but even in that, just from poking around the corners of this forum people don't have the grasp of the above, some deny parts it and some all of it. 

How can we come to the conclusion a person has understanding about eschatology as a whole when there are 10 different schools of thought on the subject? Even narrowed down to a single event like the rapture there are 5: pre, post, mid, pre-wrath and none. I'm convinced not all of them are true and equally certain one is correct. We don't debate the fact we debate the timing. So we understand the fact of the rapture but we are far apart on the full understanding or we would all be saying the same thing.

I think Jesus knew understanding would be a difficult thing. In Matt 24 He said,"...let whoso read understand." As if understanding is kept from us and a special request is made on our behalf to understand one thing. I find that humbling and profound.

Certainly God speaks to us. We hear the voice of our conscience all the time so there's always that. If you mean something like, "God spoke me and told me the truth." then a new epistemology follows from that I would be quite cautious if it cannot be verified by the written word. The one thing in all this I know for certain, with perfect clarity, fully convinced and unshaken; the written word is the Truth. 

I don't understand these things. I read and repeat. I cannot KNOW, I can only listen.

Hello Diaste,

I understand and can appreciate what you are saying, especially in the context of not knowing this "not an echo" guy personally.  But, I believe we are getting to know each other a little better, which should be one of the things we seek to do on a Christian forum, don't you think?  Hey, won't it be neat, if in God's providence we don't get to meet in this life, when we get to meet each other for the first time in Heaven?

Me---Hey, Diaste, what's going on with you today!

You---Hey, not an echo, just been down at the Crystal River skipping some stones with Elijah.  What about you!

Me---Just having me another taste of that 9th variety from the Tree of Life...Um, Um, Good!!!   Man, we sure used to have some good discussions on the boards way back when, didn't we?

You---Yeah!  Hey, wanna skip some stones and reminisce?

Me---Sure!

Now, you know what's gonna end up happening down there by the water's edge when you got your back turned and you're least expecting it???   (Hint:  Holy Tsunami)

[not an echo]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Rhetoric aside, I hope that you will realize by what I say that I do understand where you are coming from.  I know that some when they say similar would suggest that their understanding is infallible.  That is not me.  But, for me, what I have come to realize concerning the subject of the rapture harmonizes so much better with Scripture than anything else I have had exposure to that I feel God has been in it.  I just can't help feeling that way.  Important to note in what I said are the words, "For me."  I also said that in the post above that you replied to.  For me, what I am understanding is something that God opened my eyes to as I sought Him in my study of His Word.  If you said the like to me, I could understand exactly where you are coming from.  But, I would know that that wouldn't make you necessarily right.  And, my saying that don't necessarily make me right.  I may be wrong. 

After all this time another thing I have come to understand is an obligation to others to say the right thing in this. So in God's domain of His truth passed to us we are charged with speaking the thing that is right. Our obligation is to honor God first, speaking His truth, and to let that truth be heard in the ears of others. Not our truth, God's. Then we can never be wrong. That truth is contained in the scriptures

Sounds good.   I would only add that in my personal journey of seeking the Lord and learning the truths of His Word, I discovered some things that I had been raised to believe that I didn't feel were in complete harmony with all of Scripture.  Like the illustration of prophetic puzzle pieces that I sometimes use, when I would discover what seemed to be other pieces that factored in, or other arrangements (if you will) that fit better, my heart would burn within me (Lk. 24:32).  This has happened a lot with me.  Well now, these decades later, I've arrived at an understanding that harmonizes (for me) in such a way, that I feel comfortable sharing it with the rest of the family of God---with this disclaimer:  I may be wrong.  I don't think I am, but I may be.  This I know:  What I am understanding is based on Scripture.  Rightly divided, or wrongly, you and everyone else will come to your own conclusion(s) on that.  I would only ask that you (and all) consider.  And, maybe there is yet even a better understanding that we can all come to.

I would like to say that I have a lot of other deeply held convictions, borne out of my personal seeking of the leadership of Christ's Spirit (Jn. 16:13) and study of Scripture (II Tim. 2:15; 3:16-17).  My prayer is continually like unto David's (Psa. 119:18).  Of course, whereas I share a lot of other beliefs with others in our family of God (even you Diaste), I am not a carbon copy of any one or group or camp on the face of this earth.  In accord with my avatar, I am not an echo.  Not sure if you have ever read my testimony, but if it matters to you what I believe about other things, I would like to encourage you to read it.  I would certainly like to read yours.  Personally, I would like to read the testimony of anyone who interacts with me on this forum.  A lot matters besides what we may be persuaded of concerning these last days.  My testimony is in the testimony section of this forum.  Here's the link...

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/)

Edited April 8, 2021 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I freely acknowledge that.  I chose the letters imaybewrong for my email address!  I don't believe that I am wrong, but I know that I may be.  I understand that I may not be understanding God as clearly as He would like for me to.  But, I'm tuning in the best I know how.  Isn't that what we are all doing, or should be doing?  I listen to what other brothers and sisters in the Lord say (even you), and I talk to God about whether I need to tweak the tuner of my spiritual receiver any.    

Yes, in accord with what you say, I'm convinced.  Quite naturally, I believe I should be, until I'm shown something to be more truthful than what I am presently convinced of.

I don't know about tuning in. A person can tune into a lot of things that are not good.  I may be old fashioned and simple but if it cannot be verified by the Word, or is prohibited by the Word, then the voice we hear may be our own or the voice of the enemy. So if you mean a general 'spiritual tuning' I'm dubious. If a request has been made and an answer is heard and is verifiable that's a different story. 

For me if I hear a voice and scripture confirms, well. If not it's rebuked. So then to be specific in this, I find timing for the rapture in scripture in two places. What I heard as voices was incorrect when compared to the written word. 

On the thing of me "tuning in the best I know how",  we can always know that we are not tuned in as we should be if what we think we are hearing is in conflict with God's Word.  God don't speak out of both sides of His mouth, as the saying goes out here in Kentucky.  Hey, and on the thing of "old fashioned and simple" that's what I am---no "may be" about it. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:17 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

So, again Diaste, show me something that is more from God.  Let's do diligence to know the truth.  

I don't know what you mean here. All I have to cite is the written word. We have to trust what is put to paper is truthfully correct. That the best I have.

I guess I should have said, "show me an understanding that is more from God."  My bad... 

[WilliamL]

On 4/7/2021 at 11:45 AM, not an echo said:

According to my understanding, the Daniel 9:24-27 passage is the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve...

So it sounds like you have a preconception/presumption, of what Daniel must say. And my response is, that anyone who reads the Scriptures with preconceptions of what they think should be in some passage has lost all objectivity.
This is what is known in apologetics as the difference between eisegesis --

" the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas "

and exegesis --

" interpretation of a text-based solely on what it says. "

I come from the latter approach.

On 4/7/2021 at 11:45 AM, not an echo said:

Could you give us a clean WLV (WilliamL Version) of it?

That is exactly what I did. Sorry if you didn't find it acceptable.

[not an echo]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/7/2021 at 1:32 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your first sentence, for me, it's a matter of putting 2 and 2 together.  Though nothing is said of 4, that's what 2 and 2 add up to.  Diaste, some would say that anything is possible.  With this, I would have to strongly disagree.  But, if it is something that doesn't conflict with Scripture, it's worth looking into.  Moreover, you can't just up and dismiss the record of history and the geography of God's earth.  Well, you may be able to, but I can't. 

You mean arguing from silence? 

Not sure if I'm catching how your question relates to the above portion of my post.  But, if I'm reading you right, an example of what you are alluding to may have to do with my thoughts concerning the first four trumpets, the sphere shape of the earth, and the possible destruction of what is in our Western Hemisphere.

So, I have previously pointed out that the land area of our Western Hemisphere represents one-third of the land area of the earth to within less than one percentage point.  Interestingly, if the third part destruction of the first four seals is concentrated (to one side of the earth), rather than cumulative (earth-wide/the common interpretation), this destruction could be hemisphere-specific, meaning it could be to our Western Hemisphere.  Besides this, I have also pointed out that when it is high noon in Kentucky, every eye in our Western Hemisphere can behold the sun simultaneously.  And, the same holds true for those on the other side of the earth when it is high noon in Israel.  Interestingly, if our hemisphere is taken out of the picture with the sounding of the first four trumpets, the world's focus would be brought to bear upon the lands of the Bible days---once again---as it was for the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy.  It has remained a highly engaging thought for me that all of this supports a world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  Furthermore, if this represents what the future holds, the only remaining people (meaning the only remaining eyes) on the face of the earth at the time of Christ's Second Coming would be on Israel's side of the earth, in that hemisphere.  Meaning, at Christ's Second Coming, every eye will see THE SON simultaneously and in Person, without any help from man's satellites, TVs, and smart phones, as many have begun to think.

Is my above narrative representative of what the future holds?  I submit that it is not without solid Biblical support.  But, for a juror looking for eyewitness testimony, it really goes more into the category of circumstantial evidence.  Does this kind of evidence count for anything?  Hmmm.

Well, I'm really disinclined to argue about such things.  I'm just putting it forth for everyone's consideration.  About forgot, my first thread ever on Worthy Christian Forums concerned The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Now, where was I?  Oh, this thread on The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse.  Yes, I submit that according to Scripture (and other evidences) the rider on the white horse of the 1st Seal is still on the gallop, as are the other three.  But, I would suggest that the rider of the 3rd Seal is probably kicking up the most dust right now.  Wonder which rider will dig in his spurs next, when the black horse rider slows down... 

Edited April 9, 2021 by not an echo
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[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Sounds good.   I would only add that in my personal journey of seeking the Lord and learning the truths of His Word, I discovered some things that I had been raised to believe that I didn't feel were in complete harmony with all of Scripture.  Like the illustration of prophetic puzzle pieces that I sometimes use, when I would discover what seemed to be other pieces that factored in, or other arrangements (if you will) that fit better, my heart would burn within me (Lk. 24:32).  This has happened a lot with me.  Well now, these decades later, I've arrived at an understanding that harmonizes (for me) in such a way, that I feel comfortable sharing it with the rest of the family of God---with this disclaimer:  I may be wrong.  I don't think I am, but I may be.  This I know:  What I am understanding is based on Scripture.  Rightly divided, or wrongly, you and everyone else will come to your own conclusion(s) on that.  I would only ask that you (and all) consider.  And, maybe there is yet even a better understanding that we can all come to.

I would like to say that I have a lot of other deeply held convictions, borne out of my personal seeking of the leadership of Christ's Spirit (Jn. 16:13) and study of Scripture (II Tim. 2:15; 3:16-17).  My prayer is continually like unto David's (Psa. 119:18).  Of course, whereas I share a lot of other beliefs with others in our family of God (even you Diaste), I am not a carbon copy of any one or group or camp on the face of this earth.  In accord with my avatar, I am not an echo.  Not sure if you have ever read my testimony, but if it matters to you what I believe about other things, I would like to encourage you to read it.  I would certainly like to read yours.  Personally, I would like to read the testimony of anyone who interacts with me on this forum.  A lot matters besides what we may be persuaded of concerning these last days.  My testimony is in the testimony section of this forum.  Here's the link...

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252050-my-testimony-and-more/)

Well there are some things I have witnessed I would very much like to relate. However that is not part of the plan at this time. As far as testimony I like to think we testify daily, a dynamic growth on straight path, to who we interact with. Hopefully the witness is approved by our Father as He is the just Judge.

[Diaste]

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

Your take on what is required to be pre-trib does not reflect any mentality that I have.  First of all, the thing of being subject to God's wrath is what non-believers will face, whether Jew or Gentile.  Those who have been saved are not destined to be subjects of God's wrath, again, whether Jew or Gentile.

I agree.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

According to what Scripture bears out, the purpose of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy is spelled out in Daniel 9:24.  There, Daniel writes this that was told to him:

 24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

I agree here as well.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

According to my interpretation of Scripture and what history bears out, 69 weeks of this prophecy have been fulfilled.  The last, or 70th Week is yet to be fulfilled.  But, the purpose of this last week is not to subject the saved of the Israelite nation to God's punishment or wrath.  No, the purpose of this last week is to fulfill to completion what the Seventy Weeks prophecy was all about in the first place---again, what is spelled out in Daniel 9:24.

Well....I would say  other evidence concerning the last week is not being considered in this conclusion.  I agree to the stated purpose of the last week [it's clearly written  so to deny it is foolish] but what must be considered is what is written about the last week in Daniel, Joel, the Gospels, some of the Epistles, and Revelation. These all lend clarity to the final 7 years.

I'll argue from Daniel alone there is a change because of the Messiah and the 70th week no longer belongs to the Jews based on their failure proven by the death of Jesus. If the Jews truly had the full 70 weeks then what was Messiah doing there before the 70 weeks was competed? I imagine He was there so the Jews could anoint the Most Holy. Certainly the Most Holy didn't refer to either the Temple or the inner chamber of the Temple, nor the gold and copper altars.

But they didn't anoint, they sacrificed. The Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week and what did the Jews do? Continue the pursuit of the commission? No. They went right back to the religious hypocrisy characteristic of every organized man made construct. Even as presented with the guidelines of the commission they failed long before the 69th week arrived. 

 But Daniel proceeds to tell us a 7 year covenant will be confirmed and that covenant will be broken in the middle of the last week, putting an end to Temple liturgy. From at least the midpoint of the last week the Jews no longer control their destiny and will not be fulfilling the commission of Dan 9:24-26 per Rev 12 and 13.

And the idea that the Jews still have a shot at the fulfilling of the commission in a long awaited last week of man's governance is an argument from silence. It is a belief and not evidence based. Because the source material does not prohibit the idea of the last chance doctrine does not confirm this is the case. It's a negative evidence proof which is no proof at all. 

The positive evidence of Dan 9:26-27 points to a very different circumstance and outcome. That, and the reality of at least the last half of the week where the beast rules absolutely, confirmed by multiple prophets over 2000 years or longer; completing or even furthering the commission is impossible.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

Further, a child of God post-Cross is not more of a child of God than a child of God pre-cross.  In the OT days, there were both Jews and Gentiles that were children of God, and now, in these NT days, there are both Jews and Gentiles that are children of God.  To me, it is quite apparent that from the beginning, God's desire has been to redeem humanity period, and His plan for this redemption has always revolved around the Promised Seed (Gen. 3:15), the Second Adam (I Cor. 15:21-22, 45), God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ (Col. 1:15, 2:9;  II Cor. 5:19).  If God had not repeatedly intervened in the affairs of corrupted fallen humanity, there would have come a time when none would have any longer found grace in His eyes, and there would have ceased to be a line by which the Promised Seed could come.  It just bespeaks the extent of our corrupted fallen condition, whatever our race or nationality.

Agreed.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

God intervened in the days of Noah and then He intervened at the Tower of Babel.  I would suggest that in the days of Abraham, things were again not far removed from what they were in the days of Noah.  Even Abraham's people were idolaters, but not Abraham.  Because of Abraham's devotion to God, God determined to make a covenant with him, that through his seed, all nations of the earth might yet be blessed.  By God's continued interventions, and on account of His covenant promise to Abraham, the Israelite Nation eventually came into being, and ultimately, the Promised Seed was born into the world.  Again, I would suggest that this would have never happened if God had not continued to intervene.  Interestingly, the Israelite Nation didn't get it, God's chosen Nation didn't get it, and it ended up a party to the crucifixion of the Promised Seed. 

Yes. Interesting, isn't it?

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

Now, it is no longer by the Israelite Nation, but by the Christian Church (ALL who are saved) that God's covenant promise to Abraham is carried forth.  It is the Christian Church that is the herald of this good news, the message of the Gospel.  

I know you say you aren't dispensationalist or supersessionist but you are leaning right up against it here. The difficult thing here is defining the terms Israel and church. I don't think many want to know. Paul gives the idea of Israel a thorough examination in the Epistles and it's not what contemporary Christianity thinks it is.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

  God's gonna wrap all of this up one of these days.  And, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, young or old, red or yellow, black or white, the important thing is for one to know that he or she is saved.  And be it known, all who are saved are God's children, loved equally by God, and there's not gonna be any segregation in Heaven.

Amen.

On 4/6/2021 at 1:18 AM, not an echo said:

 You have repeatedly mentioned that those of the common pre-trib position see all of Daniel's 70th Week as being the wrath of God.  While I believe it is apparent that God's wrath will be poured in that time, that is different than throughout that time.  Moreover, whatever the case, God is quite able to protect the saved in the midst of whatever is befalling the unsaved.  And, whatever befalls the unsaved, God's desire would be that it would bring them to repentance, but, we see that it won't, even during the pouring out of the vials (Rev. 16:9-11).  Again, it just bespeaks the corrupted fallen condition of humanity.

This is good as it's exactly what's written. Now is someone could just prove pretrib from what's written....

[not an echo]

On 4/7/2021 at 4:40 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Concerning the middle sentence of your last paragraph, I agree, "Trumps sound before the A of D or in conjunction with," I just like to go into more detail.  Concerning the bookend sentences to your last paragraph, well, you know I'm in disagreement here.  Show me Scripture, rightly divided.

If by 'rightly divided' you mean 'to handle correctly' I'm good with that.

One of the things I say I feel falls on deaf ears is, "All the evidence is valid and it all must be considered and added to the whole for an accurate conclusion."

I read a story about a 40 year old cold case that was reopened and solved because of single bit of cloth. One small piece of truth shed the light of understanding on a complex case after many years.

Joel 1 explains the water is undrinkable and the grasses and pasture are gone at the time the meat and drink offering are cut off from the house of God, and this before the great and terrible day of the Lord which at this point is near.

This truth of all the grass and pasture gone, the trees scorched and the undrinkable water is the 1st and third trumps at the time of the A of D and near to the great darkness of the terrible day of the Lord. 

This is truth that must be added to the knowledge base of eschatology. 

Hello Diaste, it's a beautiful spring day out here in my neck of the woods, how about out there in your parts?

Concerning the first sentence of your reply, I'm good with that too.  Concerning the second sentence of your reply, I'm good with that too!  Hey, too for too---or should that be two for two? 

Concerning the next couple of sentences, I'm kinda figuring that that "single bit of cloth" would go into the category of circumstantial evidence.  From my previous post, you already know that I'm all good with circumstantial evidence---if there's enough of it.  Sometimes this kind of evidence is more reliable than the professed eyewitness testimony.  I was once the jury foreman in a case where we returned a guilty verdict on account of how everything added up.  Yes, I'm all good with that.  But, there was one in the courtroom that day that wasn't.  The way he looked at me (and the jury) when the judge read that little piece of paper that I handed off to him gave me the heebie-jeebies.  I don't want to ever be a jury foreman again, especially in a case trying a murder suspect.  Notwithstanding, I'm still good with circumstantial evidence---again, if there's enough of it.  I am, however, just a little surprised that you are.  It could be that I misunderstood you a couple of posts back. 

Concerning the rest of your reply, I remain curious concerning how you make the fit complete of Joel 1 with Revelation 8.  I'm wondering what it would be like for us if we sit down over a cup of coffee and a scenery puzzle.  I'm thinking that I might have to keep an eye on you, lest you try to make a piece go where it doesn't belong.  But, I would be nice, I promise.

[not an echo]

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 4/7/2021 at 12:45 PM, not an echo said:

According to my understanding, the Daniel 9:24-27 passage is the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve...

So it sounds like you have a preconception/presumption, of what Daniel must say. And my response is, that anyone who reads the Scriptures with preconceptions of what they think should be in some passage has lost all objectivity.
This is what is known in apologetics as the difference between eisegesis --

" the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas "

and exegesis --

" interpretation of a text-based solely on what it says. "

I come from the latter approach.

Hello WilliamL,

Well, sounds can certainly be deceiving.  I understand what might have been your first impression, but I didn't get my cart before the horse.  To the contrary, my cart is waaay behind the horse, in that I never saw Daniel 9:24-27 as being like a hub until after decades of Bible study.

"Cart before the horse"

"Horse before the cart"

I come from the latter approach too.