The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[not an echo]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/17/2021 at 3:38 PM, not an echo said:

A curious thing for me is that it seems you kinda hold me in contempt at my every mention of the Church.  Wish I understood a little more of what the undercurrent is all about.  Is there something that I have said (me personally) that is a flag for you, or is it something that I haven't said?  I'm kinda feeling that we are probably more in agreement than we are otherwise, but there is still something in the mix that I haven't quite picked up on.  Know this---I embrace every Word of God on the subject...

I apologize. That is not my intent. In general I find the modern definition of the 'church' to be lacking. It's like the letters to the churches in Revelation in a way. Some good, some bad. But Revelation speaks to the true church and not the accepted modern entity of today. 

What we see today is a haunt of motivational speakers and prosperity hawkers. 

The Most High God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not the church. 

I'm thinking that your last sentence probably stems from something that I said at the end of the opening post of my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I had said, "I would like to dedicate this opening post of this thread to the Church, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15b), of which I am most grateful to be a part."  To this you replied...

"A group made up of mankind is the foundation of the truth?!

Madness. Paul referred to God as the foundation of the truth. To frame the verse in this fashion is a self exalting lie.

'Let God be true and every man a liar.'

'The heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked.'"

And, to this, I replied...

====================

"Hello Diaste (and all),

I must say, I cringed when I saw how that my dedication of this thread "to the Church" might be taken.  To be quite honest Diaste, I don't recall ever having considered I Timothy 3:15 along the line of what you have put forth.  I certainly don't want to "frame" any verse in such a fashion that it becomes "a self exalting lie."

I think of the Church as being that that Jesus said He would build (Matt. 16:13-18), and I am most grateful to be a part of this.  When Paul speaks of the Church as being Christ's Body (Eph. 1:22-23) and of Christ being the Head of this Body (Col. 1:18), it is easy for me to see the Church as being the subject of his statement, "the pillar and ground of the truth."  I would encourage you to look at this further, and also consider how others in the family of God have taken it.

I know for me, I'm thankful for what I consider to be the true Church.  I am not talking about some denominational or non-denominational body, but the body of true Christians upon the face of the earth, who "speaking the truth in love" have continued to "grow up into Him in all things, which is the Head, even Christ" (Eph. 4:15).  To be sure, some in the body are mature, some are not, some are wayward, and there are tares among the wheat.  But, in accord with Jesus' words, the "gates of hell" have not prevailed against it---though the battle has raged.

Because of your concerns, I will here delight in re-framing my dedication in such a way that there might be no mistaking what I mean:  I would like to dedicate the opening post of my thread to "the church of the living God" (I Tim. 3:15b), of which I am most grateful to be a part."

====================

Though I continue to feel quite at ease with my original statement, I ended up at that time satisfied to merely express the gist of my desire, which was to dedicate my opening post to the Church.  I really had no desire at that time to get into a back and forth over the fullness of what Paul was here trying to convey to Timothy.  I had never anticipated that the way I worded my dedication would occasion such a response as you gave.

At this time, I do have something further that I would like to say, and I hope you understand.  First of all, the Scripture I had quoted was from this that Paul was telling Timothy in I Timothy 3:

14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I would like to once again encourage you to look at this further and to consider all the other translations of this passage and what is found in the writings of others---none of which (that I have found) detracts from my original statement.

On my part, I can see why that someone who has been hurt by a local congregation might struggle with what Paul tells Timothy (as it is overwhelmingly understood).  But, consider that Paul also said that the Church is "the body of Christ" (I Cor. 12:27;  Eph. 4:12).  Would you say what you did above about this?

"A group made up of mankind is [the body of Christ]?!

Madness."

I am at ease holding Christ's Church in very high regard, being careful to understand that everyone that might put him or herself forth as being a part of it is not, and everything that is put forth as being a part of it is not.

I think of a restaurant.  It is certainly not the "brick and mortar" that makes for what interests us most when we sit down in one for a meal.  Around my neck of the woods, some places that vacationers might not think would have very good food are, for the locals, considered the best place to go!  And why?  Because of the people there that know what they are supposed to be about.

Same with a courthouse.  It is certainly not the "brick and mortar" that makes for what interests us most when we go there for justice or law related matters.  What most interests us is that the people there know what they are supposed to be about.

Same with a school or college.  Same with a bank.  Same with a grocery store, or hardware store, or any kind of store.  And, and...

Same with a local church.  It is certainly not the "brick and mortar" that makes for the things that interests us the most (or should) when we enter such a building.  What most interests us is that the people there (of whom we may become a part!) know what they are supposed to be about.

And, that part about "the pillar and ground of the truth"?  We don't go down to the restaurant seeking to hear the Word of God read and expounded, or to bear one another's burdens, or to sing praises to Almighty God with others, or to worship and pray to Him with others.  We don't go down to the courthouse seeking to do these things there.  Or to the hardware store.  Or the dealership.  Or anywhere else that has been built for some other purpose.  No.  Rather, we go down to that "brick and mortar" place, often adorned with a steepled cross, that has been build for and sanctified for that purpose by the local believers in Christ.  We assemble there with the "Church" that would still exist, even if the "brick and mortar" part were suddenly destroyed---as we have seen happen.  Further, these assembling believers will continue to dot the landscape of the earth and to meet in the "brick and mortar" edifices built to weekly accommodate them---endeavoring to be a part of "the pillar and ground of the truth" in their little corner of God's world---till that glorious day that Jesus comes to receive them unto Himself.

I had began to work on this reply much earlier today and had to pull myself away from it to do some things around the house and to mow my field, etc.  While I was mowing---with the above still on my mind---I thought of the activity of the horseman of the 1st Seal---the subject of this thread.  I thought of those who Jesus warned of thus: "For many shall come in My name, saying I am Christ;  and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:5).  Or, of those He warned of thus: "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:10-11).  I would submit that it has been chiefly, or equally, the activity of this rider and the dust kicked up by his horse, if you will, that has left many of God's children weary, battle worn, and even defeated.  As the rider of the 1st Seal went forth "conquering, and to conquer" (Rev. 6:2) soon after John received The Revelation, so has he done down through the corridors of history, even until now.  He is all about conquering the faith of God's children, or their joy, or their sense of purpose, or their desire to continue as disciples, or their desire to give their best to the cause of Christ.  The activity of the rider on the white horse of the 1st Seal is to conquer anyone or anything that helps toward the success of Christ's Church for His Kingdom purposes.  It goes without saying that the forces of evil bask in any such success---even the defeat of one of God's children.  Even the defeat of you.  But, come what may, we can be "more then conquerors through Him that loved us" (Rom. 8:37).  Much more can be said, but I hope these words have been both enlightening and encouraging.

I'm at this time reminded of what is written in Hebrews 10...

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I thought of highlighting some words, but, as they are all worthy of being highlighted, I will just give that to the Lord to emphasize what He would like for you at this time.

I most certainly believe that the Father has a place for all of His children to attend, where they can fellowship with others of like faith, and serve with others for the cause of Christ and the message of the Gospel, and worship Almighty God and His Christ with others, till He has finished with His purpose(s) for us here---part of that being to be a part in "the pillar and ground of the truth."

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Spiros]

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And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

In Greek the word for crown is stephanos. Another name for it is wreath. The bow and the wreath were symbols of the anceint Greek god Apollo.

 

This is actually encoding the birth of Jesus Christ who will appear – be born as the morning star, as Apollo. Looking at the astronomy:

 

https://i.postimg.cc/cLdrqhzz/Apollo-Birth-of-Jesus01.jpg

 

Let’s not forget(2 Peter 1.19 corrected):

 

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And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and Phosphorus rises in your hearts;

Phosphorus: “The Bright Morning Star” or “The Morning Star”

[not an echo]

On 4/19/2021 at 6:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/18/2021 at 8:57 PM, not an echo said:

Not for sure what you are not getting, but I will try to clarify a little.  First of all, if what is in our Western Hemisphere is destroyed (North and South America and half of Antarctica), this would represent one-third of the land area of the earth to within less than one percentage point.  The population of our side of the earth is just a fraction of the population of the earth.  So, with our side of the earth essentially out of the picture, much more than "a small portion" of the population of the earth would remain.  I just Goggled the population of South America (422.5 million) and North America (579 million).  As can be seen, the population of these combined is just a hair over one billion, which is less than 1/7th of the population of the earth (7.674 billion/2019).

Yes, but this could be found by parceling out other regions as well.

True.  But, don't you find it interesting that the parcel of the Western Hemisphere---which wasn't known of in the Bible days and wasn't a factor in the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy---equals one-third of the land area of the earth, to within less than one percentage point?  And, an asteroid, when it impacts, doesn't pick and choose.  In other words, if one impacts the Central America region with enough wherewithal to take out a third part of the earth, it isn't going to leave Arizona and take Colorado.  Or, leave Colombia and take Brazil.  However, such an impact would be prevented by the earth's mass from having the same effect on its opposite side.  It is also easily conceivable that if an impact like this were to occur in our hemisphere, the land of Israel is situated such that it would be shielded from tidal waves that would result from the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.  Moreover, it is equally conceivable that the resultant dust, vapor, and smoke from such an impact could fill the atmosphere to the point of affecting day and nighttime light by one-third.  The earth, being a sphere, is ideal for a cataclysm resulting in such as this to occur.  Admittedly, this possibility is beyond what we can know for sure, before the fact, but it is more than pure conjecture.  It has both relevant substance and strong scriptural support.

The nature of what I am pointing out supports that just prior to Daniel's 70th Week, there could be a systematic reversal of world conditions, so that in a very short time, things upon this earth may be looking much as they did in the Bible days.  If this is what John is beholding, this would be like a giant leap backward in time to the pre-Cross era, the world's stage being reset for the fulfilling of the 70th Week and also for the Jew's witnessing of Jesus' Second Advent, this time as their King of kings, and Lord of lords to rule upon this earth for a thousand years.

On 4/19/2021 at 6:14 AM, Diaste said:

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Interestingly, if at the time of Christ's Second Coming, there are no survivors on our side of the earth, the only remaining eyes on the face of the earth will be on the other side of the earth---on Israel's side of the earth.  A point that I have often made is that just as the sun at noon time in Israel can be seen by every eye (simultaneously) in Israel's hemisphere, so will THE SON be seen by "every eye" when He comes again as King of kings and Lord of lords.  Realizing all of the foregoing can take the mystery away from how every eye will simultaneously see Christ at His Second Coming (Rev. 1:7).  Now, I may be wrong, but there is nothing here that conflicts with Scripture.  Rather, it is all supported by Scripture and gives some very interesting insight into the possibilities of a world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, so that the focus is brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE MORE---as during the first 69 weeks.  Even when I say this is interesting or even very interesting, I see these as huge understatements.

How is it that 'no conflicts with scripture' equals the truth of scripture? And then you  say 'it doesn't conflict' then say 'it's supported'. They are not the same thing. So is it supported or merely at a silent standoff?

What your opening question indicates is not what I have proposed.  What I have proposed stems from and is supported by Scripture, and the possibilities I have pointed out do not conflict with Scripture in any way.  Rather, things sure do come together in a very interesting way when understood as I have proposed.

On 4/19/2021 at 6:14 AM, Diaste said:

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As far as your question concerning "All the tribes of the earth,"  are you thinking that there might not be 144,000 Jews, 12,000 from each tribe, to be found in Israel's hemisphere at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal?

Scripture says, all the tribes of the earth. That would be more than just the tribes of Israel. Are you thinking some tribes are eliminated in the Hemisphere Theory? So you're reading the scripture to mean 'all' is defined as 'what's left'? I guess I always thought it meant 'all' and no east, west, north or south hemisphere was devoid of mankind at the time Jesus appeared.

The answer to your question is, "No".  The 144,000 will be where ever they are. Scripture isn't dogmatic about their location when they are sealed or caught up. If we wax unequivocal here we are outside what the Word says. For instance, a tribal Israeli male virgin could be born anywhere in the world. Ben Shapiro is quite proud of the fact he remained a virgin till marriage in his early 20's; he was born in the US and lives in Florida. I used to think all these sealed from the 12 tribes would be quite young, maybe no older than 13-14. But that's just speculation on my part. There are much older Israeli tribal male virgins.

The other problem is where these tribes are. The US has a population of Jews equal to Israel and Jews are found on all continents. Now not all of them can be descended from the 12 tribes as many are probably converts. To this day no one is sure where the tribes went or how far they spread. The Jews say they know and I have no reason to doubt them. But to limit the tribes to one region of earth is purely dogmatic. 

And even then I don't see in scripture where 1/3 of the population is killed all contained in a single region of earth. Maybe, but I don't see it.

Concerning your first paragraph, because of the fit of the prophetic puzzle pieces (e.g., Matt. 24:30 with Rev. 7:4) and the tenor of Scripture from one end of the Bible to the other, it is quite reasonable to take "all the tribes" to be in reference to all the tribes of Israel.  Also (if I am understanding you correctly), concerning the first four trumpets and where people will still be left on the earth for the time of Christ's Second Advent, this will depend in large part on whether the "third part" destruction is concentrated or cumulative.  Just off the cuff, it's not hard to conclude that what happens with the sounding of the 2nd and 3rd trumpets will be highly concentrated, and arguably, hemisphere specific.  Consider again my thread, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Concerning your second paragraph, it is logical that the 144,000 will have to be where they can actually "see" the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven",  as Jesus says---"and they shall see the Son of man..." (Matt. 24:30).  Of course, God can effect their seeing the Son anyway He wants, even if some are on the opposite side of the earth from the event!  But, a lot of what He wants or intends to do is revealed in Scripture.  We just have to try to interpret it correctly.  I submit that the 144,000 will be saved as a result of seeing "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and realizing that who they've just seen is the glorified Jesus---their Messiah indeed!---the same Jesus they had been rejecting up till this time.  The same Jesus that their ancestors had also rejected---and also crucified---some 2000 years prior.

Concerning the last sentence of your third paragraph, other than the limitations that Scripture would seem to impose, I'm not limiting anything, and I apologize if it seems to you that I have been, or am being, dogmatic.  How ever it comes to pass, I believe we agree that it will all fit God's Word perfectly.  Even if all the earth is to be destroyed but the land of Israel, I wouldn't have any problem believing that 12,000 Jews from each tribe would still be sealed.  There were many more than this (and from each tribe) that passed through the Red Sea and followed Moses to Mt. Sinai.

Concerning your last paragraph, I've never said anything about "1/3 of the population" in connection with the "third part" destruction of the first four trumpets.  I may be mistaken on where you are coming from.

On 4/19/2021 at 6:14 AM, Diaste said:

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Just thought about them four horsemen   Though the white horse (with its rider) of the 1st Seal has kicked up its fair share of dust over the centuries (and is chomping at the bits), I think the black horse (with its rider) of the 3rd Seal is kicking up the most dust presently.  Especially in India...

The first seal is the beast and probably after he is wounded and healed and receives power and authority from the dragon, about 3 years before he declares himself god. 

Diaste, I just can't see how you get all the prophetic puzzle pieces to fit together in such a way that this is the resultant picture.

[not an echo]

On 4/19/2021 at 7:47 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/18/2021 at 7:39 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Now, I'm thinking, "Wow, if I had of posted something like this in response to Diaste, he would have had a field day with it."  Where do you get all this?  For openers, you said...

     I have posted this on a few occasions in other topics but I don't remember where so here goes:

     Joel 1

     "Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD;

     the priests are in mourning, those who minister before the LORD.

    [This is the A of D at the midpoint.]

So, as you would say, "Where does the Bible say, [This is the A of D at the midpoint.]?  All I can gather is that you are thinking that because the "Grain and drink offerings have been cut off from the house of the LORD..."  that this must be on account of the A of D.  Only thing is, what is looming on Judah's horizon has nothing to do with the A of D and everything to do with the Day of the LORD.  The A of D is not even alluded to anywhere in Joel's prophecy---neither in "the day of the LORD" that was "at hand" (1:15) or the "day of the LORD" that would "come to pass afterward" (2:28, 31).  The grain and drink offerings being here "cut off" has nothing to do with the activity of the A of D, but everything to do with there not being anything left to offer---it has all been destroyed.  Consider the following from chapter 1:

Astute observation. The logic here fits with what I said about Joel's prophecy as related to the end of the age and the return of Jesus. If you remember I parallel Joel 1 with Matt 24 and the seals and trumps of Rev. So...if it's due to scarcity then it's the result of the 1st trump destroying all the green grass which are the cereal grains used in the oblation. Daniel says the sacrifice and oblation are stopped at the midpoint. At the most basic the zebach is an offering of thanksgiving and the minchah is a meal offering on the order of the fruit of the ground like Cain offered up. This scarcity in my mind is the reason the sacrifice and oblation is stopped by the beast as there is scarcity and this practice is seen as wasteful when people are starving and dying of thirst due to the calamities of the trumps. 

You say it's not the beast but a dearth and a matter of practicality but this is exactly what the beast does in Dan 9: "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,"

Recalling what Joel said the 1st trump [burns up ALL the green grass] has sounded at the time this calamity concerning the house of God has occurred:

The field is ruined; the land mourns. For the grain is destroyed,

wail, O vinedressers, over the wheat and barley, because the harvest of the field has perished. - Joel 1:10-11

Joel tells us how this happened:

the grain has withered away.

for fire has consumed the open pastures

and flames have scorched all the trees of the field.

for the streams of water have dried up,

and fire has consumed the open pastures. - Joel 1:17-20

Maybe you'll say, "Aha, this is the pastures and not the fields of grain!" But Joel says, "for the grain has withered away." telling us it's dried up, not eaten by locusts or worms. Also the flames have scorched all the trees. That's a wide ranging flame and to my mind indiscriminate as to trees, pastures or grasses.

So the 1st trump has sounded here at the time when the sacrifice and oblation has ceased, which is associated strongly with the act of the beast and near to the day of the Lord which Joel says is near. This isn't outrageous at all.

And yes, I inquire perpetually about direct evidence but I do not abhor conclusions based on factual premises and deduction.  I do that all the time. I present scriptural premises and conclude from there. The problems arise when the case is weakened by non scriptural premises. 

I will put forth what you quoted of me once again, with the addition of a couple of questions.  One I've asked before:  Where do you see any indication that the fires spoken of in "Joel 1" stem from the sky instead of the activity of the invading nation?  Big difference.  Secondly, doesn't your take on the 3rd Seal go counter to your position?  I mean, "oil" and "wine" (Rev. 6:6) aplenty, but nothing to offer at the temple?  Whatever would be needful to sustain offerings at the temple would utterly pale in relation to what would be needful for the people.  I submit that the A of D is not going to "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (Dan. 9:27) because he has to, but because he wants to.

On 4/19/2021 at 7:47 AM, Diaste said:

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 5  Awake, ye drunkards, and weep;  and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine;  for it is CUT OFF from your mouth.

Why is it cut off?  Because...

 4  That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten;  and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten;  and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

Sure, but it's not how you see it. Joel 1:4 is analogous to Joel 1:6-7. The destruction of v.7 is likened to the effects of the pestilence of the locusts and worms. 

"He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white."

And this 'he' did it with this;

"For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth [are] the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion."

In connection also with what I just said in my previous reply, on the one hand---again---where do you see the fires of Joel's prophecy stemming from the sky (1st Trumpet) instead of the invading nation?  On the other hand, where do you see the "nation" of Joel's prophecy relating to the 1st Trumpet, or the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th?

On 4/19/2021 at 7:47 AM, Diaste said:

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While I'm desirous to move on, I would add these few other notes concerning your post as a whole:  Any similarity between what is effected by the worms/locust (1:4) and/or "nation" (1:6) of Joel's prophecy and the sounding of the 1st Trumpet is like pieces of a puzzle that have an element of similarly, but don't fit.  As I said in my post, if we were sitting down over coffee and working on a puzzle, I would have to---well, you know. 

Won't fit? It's the similarities that allow the fit. When detectives are faced with solving a crime you know what they do? They go check out known perps who have committed similar crimes involving the same M.O. We use this sort of deductive and inductive reasoning in our daily lives multiple times a day. Suddenly when it comes to scripture and prophecy dissimilarities are the raison d'etre. And it's not just you, I have seen it many, many times. 

I'm not denying that a side of one of the puzzle pieces you have focused on happens to fit with the side of another.  I'm just seeking the interlocking of all the pieces.  Said another way, notwithstanding some of the things you have pointed out, the DNA needs to match.

On 4/19/2021 at 7:47 AM, Diaste said:

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As the book of Joel opens, his prophecy revolves around what is looming over the land of Israel ("my land"/1:6).  In contrast, in the context of the trumpet judgments, the first four trumpets are impacting "the third part" of the earth (Rev. 8:7-12).  There are major differences here in both the extent, the cause, and more.

But this idea is based on the premise you have conjured. Let's see what the 1st trump affects:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass"

This is not limited to 1/3 of the earth. It's "all the green grass" and "a third of the trees". Both of these are along with "A third of the earth was burned" not limiting the area of the burned trees and the grass. 

greenfacts.org says, "Total forest area in 2005 was estimated to be around 30% of the planet’s land area," That means far less than 1/3 of the earth would have to be affected for this to come to pass. 

Further:

"Among world regions, Europe (which, for the purpose of this assessment includes the Russian Federation) accounts for one-quarter of total forest area, followed by South America and then North and Central America. South America is the region with the highest percentage of forest cover (almost half of the land area) and Asia is the region with the lowest percentage of forest cover (less than 20% of land area)."

That doesn't fit well with the Hemisphere Theory. Russia alone accounts for 1/4 of the trees. Most of it could be limited to that region. It's more sensible to think this 1/3 of trees is an even distribution occurring during the burning of ALL the grass.

Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10Then the third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star burning like a torch fell from heaven and landed on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil,a and many people died from the bitter waters.

Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well.

Niether are these trumps limited to a region of the earth equal to 1/3 of the earth. The text says:

A third of the sea, a third of the living creatures, a third of the ships, a third of the rivers,  A third of the waters, a third of the sun, A third of the stars, a third of the day, a third of the night.  Only does the first trump say 1/3 of the earth was burned, the rest of the trumps affect 1/3 of groups of everything but the earth and they are not limited by region. The text does not say this isn't a even distribution throughout the earth. You do, the text does not. It could be limited but it's not proven by Rev 8.

Concerning your reply as a whole, in trying to imagine what John was beholding, I have wondered about the possibility of an inbound asteroid (i.e., "Wormwood"), preceded by a major meteor shower---something on a level that there has never been.  I mean, when we are talking about something of a magnitude that "the third part" of the earth (or anything of the earth) is effected, this is huge.  If the asteroid impact is preceded by such a meteor shower and this comes in on our side of the earth, there's no denying that this could fulfill the "third part" destruction.

But, what about "ALL" the "green grass" (Rev. 8:7)?  Have you ever looked at pictures showing the satellites surrounding the earth (an easy Google)?  The earth is presently surrounded by a virtual canopy of them.  If something of a magnitude that could affect "the third part" of the earth is inbound, I can see this having an affect on our atmosphere that could disrupt the orbits of everything surrounding us.  What are the possibilities, when you have multiplied thousands of satellites joining in the fray (Google says 4500-6500+), breaking up and becoming millions of little hot pieces of shrapnel suddenly being drawn to the earth, peppering fields the world over?  More simply put, something utterly cataclysmic happening to one side of the earth, that, because of the satellite canopy, causes field fires throughout the rest of the earth.  A curious possibility to me.  This is not to mention the jet airliners full of people (1-2 gallons of "blood" per person/Google shows there's some 500,000+ people in the air at any given time) and what is said about "hail and fire mingled with blood" (Rev. 8:7).  We haven't even touched on the thing of how Almighty God can orchestrate everything.  He is the Maestro Extraordinaire!

Concerning your last paragraph, you seem to allow for the first trumpet to support what I put forth.  Of the 2nd Trumpet, the "great mountain" (the Great Rocky Mountain range?) being "cast into the sea" (the Pacific Ocean?) would be a "hemisphere specific" cataclysm, don't you think?  And, not only for the sea, but for wherever the mountain comes from!  I think of our land based ICBM's planted here and there around the Rockies.  Hey, that's out there your way, ain't it?   Of the 3rd Trumpet, don't you think that the "great star...called Wormwood" would be a "hemisphere specific" cataclysm?  And, it doesn't get "the rivers" and "the fountains" (Rev. 8:10) unless it gets the geography, because the geography is where the rivers and the fountains reside.  That's the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trumpets.  And the 4th Trumpet?  Even if the smoke, vapor, and dust from everything that happens over here affects day and nighttime light by one third the world over, this doesn't take anything away from what I have put forth.

Let me add in closing that I am not saying that God will, or must use satellites, jet airliners full of people, or even ICBMs!  He can do any of what is prophesied in His Word any way He determines.  Just saying...

[not an echo]

On 7/8/2022 at 12:58 PM, iamlamad said:

On 7/2/2022 at 12:43 AM, not an echo said:

"The red, the black and the pale horses and riders ride together..."

Concerning your last question, how do you come to this conclusion?

Very simple, straight from John's words.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I asked God who "them" was. He said "read the verse again." I read it again and again ask, who is them? He said read it again. This went on several times. Finally I got a clue that the answer to my question was IN the verse.

"power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword"

The red horse was given a sword.

"power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with... hunger"

The black horse was given power to cause famines or hunger.

"power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with... death"

The pale horse was titled "death."

These there are together and together are limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth.

Hello iamlamad,

First of all, I would like to express my apologies for such an untimely response!  Hopefully, as the ole saying goes, better late than never.   Next, I would like to say that I am always glad to be able to get back to the specific focus of any thread that I have started.  This is not to say that I am negative about checking out some of the related scenery---if you will---just as long as it doesn't result in a derailment!

As I have reviewed some of our discussions, I am left wondering what regard, if any, you give to the parallels of the first four seals with the opening section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  And, if you give any regard to these, why the departure from the parallel of the 1st Seal with Jesus' opening words there?  From Matthew 24...

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Concerning your answer to the question you quoted of me, why do you not see the antecedent of "them" in Revelation 6:8 as being the rider on the pale horse and what followed him?  The verse reads thus...

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Back to my question, you spoke to one part of it, but I was also curious concerning what you said at the end of your sentence (or question), which you didn't show above, and I've highlighted below...

On 6/24/2022 at 7:28 AM, iamlamad said:

Did you notice that the Red horse, the Black horse, and the Pale horse ride together, but the white horse rides alone?

I have understood you to believe that the horseman on the white horse is the Church.  Some believe Christ.  As I see it, there is nothing else concerning what is said about the 1st Seal that would cause anyone to venture that this might be the case, other that the thing of this rider being upon a "white" horse.  In other words, if the rider had been on a horse of another color, none of the rest of what is said would cause someone to think that this might be the Church or Christ.  Meaning, the word "white" is the foundation for such a position.  For me, this foundation crumbles in the face of other things we find in Scripture and what I have pointed out in the course of this thread.  For example, even if John had said that the horse was white and as radiant as light, this would not be enough to establish that it is the Church or Christ riding thereon.  Consider, as I have pointed out before, what Paul said in II Corinthians 11...

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Why should we think it odd that the spirit of one of Satan's henchmen would be upon a white horse?  On my part, I would be surprised if this wasn't the case!

After putting forth the why of your position concerning the horsemen of seals #2, #3, and #4, you make the statement that they "are limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth."  Now, I with you (if I have understood you correctly), also believe that the first four seals were opened as early as before the close of the first century.  And, whereas I believe we can see the "theater of operation" for the rider of the 4th Seal as being limited "to only 1/4 of the earth",  why doesn't this fraction also correspond to what we can see relating to the other riders (as you believe, the 2nd & 3rd)?

Back to the rider of the 4th Seal, the following is something that I wrote concerning this in the second post of my thread, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).  Consider...

"Whereas we know history will not support that one-fourth of the world's population has ever been killed during the era of the Church, we cannot make such a statement if what is here being revealed is Satan's power to kill Christians over a limited portion of the earth.  To the contrary, we know very well that many have put their lives on the line, sacrificing themselves on the altar of Christian service, by going to some of the places they have gone.  We know there are lots of places (arguably totaling one-fourth of the earth!) where, if a missionary should go, he or she may very well not return.  It was that way in the first century, it has been that way since the first century, and it is that way today.  Again, this has been the result of the activity of the rider on the pale horse (and Hell)."

I hope you will continue to consider and pray about what I have been putting forth.  Sometimes I see the arguments of others against what I say as more of an argument that has been built against what has been commonly put forth---things with which I am often in disagreement with also.  But, my positions are not what have been commonly put forth.  Did you ever consider my opening post for this thread and the links I provided there?

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

First of all, I would like to express my apologies for such an untimely response!  Hopefully, as the ole saying goes, better late than never.   Next, I would like to say that I am always glad to be able to get back to the specific focus of any thread that I have started.  This is not to say that I am negative about checking out some of the related scenery---if you will---just as long as it doesn't result in a derailment!

As I have reviewed some of our discussions, I am left wondering what regard, if any, you give to the parallels of the first four seals with the opening section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  And, if you give any regard to these, why the departure from the parallel of the 1st Seal with Jesus' opening words there?  From Matthew 24...

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Concerning your answer to the question you quoted of me, why do you not see the antecedent of "them" in Revelation 6:8 as being the rider on the pale horse and what followed him?  The verse reads thus...

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Back to my question, you spoke to one part of it, but I was also curious concerning what you said at the end of your sentence (or question), which you didn't show above, and I've highlighted below...

I have understood you to believe that the horseman on the white horse is the Church.  Some believe Christ.  As I see it, there is nothing else concerning what is said about the 1st Seal that would cause anyone to venture that this might be the case, other that the thing of this rider being upon a "white" horse.  In other words, if the rider had been on a horse of another color, none of the rest of what is said would cause someone to think that this might be the Church or Christ.  Meaning, the word "white" is the foundation for such a position.  For me, this foundation crumbles in the face of other things we find in Scripture and what I have pointed out in the course of this thread.  For example, even if John had said that the horse was white and as radiant as light, this would not be enough to establish that it is the Church or Christ riding thereon.  Consider, as I have pointed out before, what Paul said in II Corinthians 11...

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Why should we think it odd that the spirit of one of Satan's henchmen would be upon a white horse?  On my part, I would be surprised if this wasn't the case!

After putting forth the why of your position concerning the horsemen of seals #2, #3, and #4, you make the statement that they "are limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth."  Now, I with you (if I have understood you correctly), also believe that the first four seals were opened as early as before the close of the first century.  And, whereas I believe we can see the "theater of operation" for the rider of the 4th Seal as being limited "to only 1/4 of the earth",  why doesn't this fraction also correspond to what we can see relating to the other riders (as you believe, the 2nd & 3rd)?

Back to the rider of the 4th Seal, the following is something that I wrote concerning this in the second post of my thread, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).  Consider...

"Whereas we know history will not support that one-fourth of the world's population has ever been killed during the era of the Church, we cannot make such a statement if what is here being revealed is Satan's power to kill Christians over a limited portion of the earth.  To the contrary, we know very well that many have put their lives on the line, sacrificing themselves on the altar of Christian service, by going to some of the places they have gone.  We know there are lots of places (arguably totaling one-fourth of the earth!) where, if a missionary should go, he or she may very well not return.  It was that way in the first century, it has been that way since the first century, and it is that way today.  Again, this has been the result of the activity of the rider on the pale horse (and Hell)."

I hope you will continue to consider and pray about what I have been putting forth.  Sometimes I see the arguments of others against what I say as more of an argument that has been built against what has been commonly put forth---things with which I am in disagreement with also.  But, my positions are not what have been commonly put forth.  Did you ever consider my opening post for this thread and the links I provided there?

First, allow me to say that I did not form my beliefs in this chapter of revelation by human imagination. I stick very close to what is written, and ask God what His intended meaning was when He had John write.

For example, I got stuck on one word, "them:" "power was given unto them..." I kept bugging God, "God, who is "them?" He answered: "it's right there in the verse: read it again." I read it again and did not get it, so I asked Him again. This was repeated several times. (in short, I am SLOW to understand.) I kept reading that verse. To this day I am not sure if I really got it, or if God supplied it. 

The answer is, indeed, right in the verse:

Power was given unto THEM to kill with the sword...so the Red horse and rider.

Power was given unto THEM to kill with the famine...so the Black horse and rider.

Power was given unto THEM to kill with Death...so the pale horse and rider.

Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars: that parallels the Red horse and rider. He said there would be famines, and that parallels the Black horse and rider. He said there would be pestilences, and that parallels "death." In Strong's concordance, it uses the word, diminutive . That means extremely small. I believe the intent is, things like the black plague or Yellow Fever, or Spanish flu that killed millions.

Did you notice that "them" did not include the white horse and rider? 

So many people imagine the white horse to be the Antichrist. First, they are 2000 years off. Chapters 4 and 5 give us the timing of the opening of the first seal - and that was as soon as Jesus ascended, He took the book and began opening seals.

Second, the Antichrist will not be limited to one fourth of the earth.

Third, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. Do you really think God would use white in one book of the bible 16 times for something righteous, pure, holy, and then use it once for something evil? That would never happen!

What was the one righteous entity on earth when Jesus ascended? Only one thing: the infant church. They were sent out to make disciples of all nations. Was Satan going to just stand aside and allow his kingdom to be invaded by the gospel? NEVER! We can be sure, he was in God's face demanding that if God was to send out the church, he must be allowed to stop the advance of the gospel. 

God allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts but limited them to one fourth of the earth.

Next, because the church invaded the devil's kingdom, MARTYRS were the result. So the fifth seal was opened for the martyrs of the church age. Here at the 5th seal we get the first hint of a long delay. They cried out for justice, that their murders be judged and avenged. God told them they would have to wait for the final church age martyr before judgment would begin.

The very next thing John wrote was the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord and God's wrath.

The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal all this time, waiting for the rapture to end the church age and cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr of the church age.

[not an echo]

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

On 10/20/2022 at 7:51 PM, not an echo said:

Hello iamlamad,

First of all, I would like to express my apologies for such an untimely response!  Hopefully, as the ole saying goes, better late than never.   Next, I would like to say that I am always glad to be able to get back to the specific focus of any thread that I have started.  This is not to say that I am negative about checking out some of the related scenery---if you will---just as long as it doesn't result in a derailment!

As I have reviewed some of our discussions, I am left wondering what regard, if any, you give to the parallels of the first four seals with the opening section of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.  And, if you give any regard to these, why the departure from the parallel of the 1st Seal with Jesus' opening words there?  From Matthew 24...

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Concerning your answer to the question you quoted of me, why do you not see the antecedent of "them" in Revelation 6:8 as being the rider on the pale horse and what followed him?  The verse reads thus...

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Back to my question, you spoke to one part of it, but I was also curious concerning what you said at the end of your sentence (or question), which you didn't show above, and I've highlighted below...

I have understood you to believe that the horseman on the white horse is the Church.  Some believe Christ.  As I see it, there is nothing else concerning what is said about the 1st Seal that would cause anyone to venture that this might be the case, other that the thing of this rider being upon a "white" horse.  In other words, if the rider had been on a horse of another color, none of the rest of what is said would cause someone to think that this might be the Church or Christ.  Meaning, the word "white" is the foundation for such a position.  For me, this foundation crumbles in the face of other things we find in Scripture and what I have pointed out in the course of this thread.  For example, even if John had said that the horse was white and as radiant as light, this would not be enough to establish that it is the Church or Christ riding thereon.  Consider, as I have pointed out before, what Paul said in II Corinthians 11...

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Why should we think it odd that the spirit of one of Satan's henchmen would be upon a white horse?  On my part, I would be surprised if this wasn't the case!

After putting forth the why of your position concerning the horsemen of seals #2, #3, and #4, you make the statement that they "are limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth."  Now, I with you (if I have understood you correctly), also believe that the first four seals were opened as early as before the close of the first century.  And, whereas I believe we can see the "theater of operation" for the rider of the 4th Seal as being limited "to only 1/4 of the earth",  why doesn't this fraction also correspond to what we can see relating to the other riders (as you believe, the 2nd & 3rd)?

Back to the rider of the 4th Seal, the following is something that I wrote concerning this in the second post of my thread, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).  Consider...

"Whereas we know history will not support that one-fourth of the world's population has ever been killed during the era of the Church, we cannot make such a statement if what is here being revealed is Satan's power to kill Christians over a limited portion of the earth.  To the contrary, we know very well that many have put their lives on the line, sacrificing themselves on the altar of Christian service, by going to some of the places they have gone.  We know there are lots of places (arguably totaling one-fourth of the earth!) where, if a missionary should go, he or she may very well not return.  It was that way in the first century, it has been that way since the first century, and it is that way today.  Again, this has been the result of the activity of the rider on the pale horse (and Hell)."

I hope you will continue to consider and pray about what I have been putting forth.  Sometimes I see the arguments of others against what I say as more of an argument that has been built against what has been commonly put forth---things with which I am in disagreement with also.  But, my positions are not what have been commonly put forth.  Did you ever consider my opening post for this thread and the links I provided there?

First, allow me to say that I did not form my beliefs in this chapter of revelation by human imagination. I stick very close to what is written, and ask God what His intended meaning was when He had John write.

For example, I got stuck on one word, "them:" "power was given unto them..." I kept bugging God, "God, who is "them?" He answered: "it's right there in the verse: read it again." I read it again and did not get it, so I asked Him again. This was repeated several times. (in short, I am SLOW to understand.) I kept reading that verse. To this day I am not sure if I really got it, or if God supplied it. 

The answer is, indeed, right in the verse:

Power was given unto THEM to kill with the sword...so the Red horse and rider.

Power was given unto THEM to kill with the famine...so the Black horse and rider.

Power was given unto THEM to kill with Death...so the pale horse and rider.

Hello iamlamad,

Concerning your second paragraph, you say of the "them" of Revelation 6:8 that God answered, "it's right there in the verse: read it again."  Why did you then go outside the verse?  The antecedents to the "them" are, as you said God said, "right there in the verse" as can be readily seen...

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

Jesus said there would be wars and rumors of wars: that parallels the Red horse and rider. He said there would be famines, and that parallels the Black horse and rider. He said there would be pestilences, and that parallels "death." In Strong's concordance, it uses the word, diminutive . That means extremely small. I believe the intent is, things like the black plague or Yellow Fever, or Spanish flu that killed millions.

Why did you depart from what Jesus said as He opened His discourse and the parallel of this with the 1st Seal?

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

Did you notice that "them" did not include the white horse and rider?

Just to more fully clarify, the "them" did not include the red horse and rider or the black horse and rider.  The "them" only includes the pale horse and rider "and Hell" (Rev. 6:8).

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

So many people imagine the white horse to be the Antichrist. First, they are 2000 years off. Chapters 4 and 5 give us the timing of the opening of the first seal - and that was as soon as Jesus ascended, He took the book and began opening seals.

I don't "imagine the white horse to be the Antichrist."  I submit that the 1st Seal reveals the post-Apostolic liberty granted to Satan to send forth a spirit of deception through false Christs and false prophets, which activity has been behind the rise of all such down through the centuries until now---not to mention the damage done by the same.

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

What was the one righteous entity on earth when Jesus ascended? Only one thing: the infant church. They were sent out to make disciples of all nations. Was Satan going to just stand aside and allow his kingdom to be invaded by the gospel? NEVER! We can be sure, he was in God's face demanding that if God was to send out the church, he must be allowed to stop the advance of the gospel.

Consider how close what you are saying is to what I have put forth.  You state, "Was Satan going to just stand aside and allow his kingdom to be invaded by the gospel? NEVER! We can be sure, he was in God's face demanding that if God was to send out the church, he must be allowed to stop the advance of the gospel."  Just above what I here quoted of you, you said, "Do you really think God would use white in one book of the bible 16 times for something righteous, pure, holy, and then use it once for something evil?"  My question would be this:  Can't you just see Satan negotiating with God for one something that is "white"?  A first thought here:  Give Satan just one thing "white" and see how he will run with it.

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

Next, because the church invaded the devil's kingdom, MARTYRS were the result. So the fifth seal was opened for the martyrs of the church age. Here at the 5th seal we get the first hint of a long delay. They cried out for justice, that their murders be judged and avenged. God told them they would have to wait for the final church age martyr before judgment would begin.

I certainly believe that the martyrs of Revelation 6:9-10 are those who have been martyred during the era of the Church.  But, for various other reasons, my position is that the martyrs spoken of in the last half of verse 11 are Daniel's 70th Week martyrs.  Because of what was told to the Church era martyrs, "that they should rest yet for a little season" (vs. 11), I submit that the timing of the opening of the 5th Seal is close to the time of the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week, which means that I believe it could be open now---and is.  Because of this, I see the opening of the 6th Seal as being imminent.  Consider also my thread, The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

On 10/21/2022 at 7:26 AM, iamlamad said:

The very next thing John wrote was the 6th seal start of the Day of the Lord and God's wrath.

The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal all this time, waiting for the rapture to end the church age and cause a certain martyr to be that final martyr of the church age.

As I alluded in my previous reply, I would see us between the 5th and 6th seals as well, with the opening of the 6th Seal as being imminent.  I mean, like it can be opened before I push Submit Repl...

In accord with Jesus' words in Matthew 24...

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:21).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo