The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[The Light]

13 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Hello The Light (and all),

While I disagree with some things Revelation Man says (sometimes I come to disagree with things I have said ), what he says here is so.  All of the seals of the Seven Sealed Scroll or Book must be opened, at least before the contents of the main body can be read, or seen, or even fulfilled.

Let's look at this that God was holding in His "right hand" (Rev. 5:1), first of all as a book, and then as a scroll.

If a book, it was "sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  "If the Scripture makes plain sense, seek no other sense."  The plain sense is that the book is "sealed with seven seals," and that the covers of the book cannot be opened until the seals are removed.  That it was "written within and on the backside" (Rev. 5:1) is commonly understood, as most books are written on the inside, and many, many, have writing on the backside.  When teaching on this subject, I use seven pieces of tape attached to a book to represent these seals.  Everyone always understands that the book is not meant to open until the last piece of tape, or last seal, is removed.  Moreover, it is foundational to correctly understanding The Revelation to realize that the seals represent "things" that were "at hand" to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3) in relation to the time of John's receiving of The Revelation.  Four of these "things" took place as early as late in the first century---the opening of the first four seals.  For most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.  Likewise with the "prophecy" (Rev. 1:3) of The Revelation.  The four horsemen began to go forth at that time and they have been riding ever since.  They are riding today.  This is in harmony with all of Scripture and testified to by 20 centuries of extensive testimony.  Now, perhaps when the first seal was removed, something could be read on the seal or where the seal had been, but the cover would still be sealed.  Same with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals.  The cover of the book cannot be opened, nor its contents made known, nor its contents be fulfilled, until the 7th, or Last Seal is removed.

If a scroll, it was "sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Again, "If the Scripture makes plain sense, seek no other sense."  The plain sense is that the scroll is "sealed with seven seals," and that the scroll cannot be unrolled until the seals are removed.  I have a very nice scroll.  I have even used it as an alternate example, sealing it with seven pieces of tape.  Again, everyone always understands that the scroll is not meant to be unrolled until the last piece of tape, or last seal, is removed.  Now, perhaps when the first seal was removed, something could be read on the seal or where the seal had been.  Perhaps, just perhaps, part of the scroll was able to be unrolled at that time.  Matters not.  The main body of the scroll is different.  Perhaps, just perhaps, when the 2nd Seal is removed, a little more of the scroll can be unrolled.  Perhaps, just perhaps, the same is so for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals.  But, the main body of the scroll cannot be opened, nor its contents made known, nor its contents be fulfilled, until the 7th, or Last Seal is removed.

The seals that God has this book or scroll sealed with---now those are seals!  I just thought about that scene in Crocodile Dundee where that crook confronts Dundee and his girl with a knife.  She hollers, "He's got a knife!!!"  The Croc calmly reaches behind his back and pulls out that Bowie knife and says, "Now, that's a knife!" Unforgettable! 

 

"Charity suffereth long, and is kind;  charity envieth not;  charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth." (I Cor. 13:4-6)

Hi not an echo, not an echo, not and echo

Thanks for you comment. However, none of the seals have been opened. The seals will be opened when the 7th King confirms the covenant. That will begin the 70th week of Daniel. That is when the 7th King goes forth conquering and to conquer.

You give a good example as to how you think the book is sealed. I see it differently. It appears to me, by the scripture that the contents can be seen as each seal is opened. meaning the contents will occur as each seal is opened. If it's a book with seven seals, look at it as if there are 7 chapters. Turn to chapter seven and put your tape from chapter seven to the back of the book. That means chapter seven is sealed. Then go to chapter six and do the same thing. Do that with all seven seals. Now when you open seal one, you can read chapter one, but the rest of the book is sealed until the next seal is ready to be opened. If it's scrolls, you just do the same thing.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

As each seal is opened, that event happens. All seals don't have to be open for the event to happen. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation. The 1st 5 seals are Matt 5-24. The sixth seal is Matt 29-31. Jesus and John agree perfectly. And then the wrath of God begins.

 

And this understanding is why you are in error. The 6th Seal also has ZILCH to do with the Second Coming. You really shouldn't be teaching this stuff !! I have never seen worse timing as per the end time timelines from anyone in my entire life. You are all over the place, nothing is coherently symmetrical at all. Remember, we correct our children because we love them, so don't be angry with me brother for being honest here. The Lord said those he loves he corrects. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

I know this all looks pretty cut and dried, but it's probably the most difficult scriptures I've run across to understand. To understand it you will need to realize that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump. Then in Rev 14 we see the 144,000 as the 1st fruits of the pre wrath harvest. Rev 14 occurs in the seals. Then we see at the end of Rev 14 the harvest. This is the same harvest that you see in Rev 7. I don't think you will be able to see this at this time.

 

The 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe, thus it is ALL 7 Vials. The 7th Trump leads to Rev. 16. The problem is most people don't understand that Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Citation, its not a part of the Chronological Order of the Book of Revelation {BoR}. So the 7th Trump begins the 7 Vials. It is the last Trump that is sounded, but the Wrath is not over until the 7th Vial is poured out AND Jesus comes to earth at the 7th Vial and defeats the Beast and all his minions. Rev. 11 the 7th Trump, Rev. 14:18-20 {the Winepress}, Rev. 16:19, and Rev. 19:16-20 is all the SANE EVENT !! Not understanding this will cause one to be confused.

The 144,000 or the Jews who REPENTED hiding in the Petra/Bozrah area, nothing more or less. They are the first fruits in that Jews were the First-fruits of God. we are the First-fruits of Jesus Christ. There were TWO BRIDES, Rachel and Leah !! Rev. 7 is not a Harvest because Jesus has not returned to earth to Harvest or GATHER the Wheat {Israel} into his barn yet. You are getting the cart before the horses. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

No, we don't know that. What we should know is that the 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period and have absolutely nothing to do with the 42 month, 1260 day wrath of God.

 

Well, you don't know it, I do, because this is what it means and what the Holy Word means. No Seals have been opened, you are down a Rabbit Hole on that.

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Again, the seals have absolutely nothing to do with the Anti-Christ 42 months. The 1st 5 seals are the tribulation period. In that period the seventh king is running the show. The antichrist, who is the eighth king rules during the 1260 day wrath of God.

Yes it does, the White Horse = the CONQUERING Anti-Christ just like Jesus on a White Horse = him CONQUERING Babylon {World under Satan}.

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Dan 11

⁴⁵ And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Then there is still time, times and half a time left. That period is the wrath of God

Dan 12

⁶ And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

Just like Genesis 1 is an OVERVIEW of Creation AND Genesis 2 is an OVERVIEW of Man's Creation, likewise Daniel 11 {which I have mastered via deep study} is an overview of ALL the Greek Kings from Alexander the Great to the TYPE of coming Anti-Christ Antiochus Epiphanes IV, in verses 21-33-34, THEN we get the Anti-Christ in verses 36-45. That ENDS the Greek Kings Lineage Chapter. We see in chapter 12 the vision goes in a different direction, just like Gen. 2 is about Man's Creation in general, nor the Universes Creation as is shown in Gen. 1. So you trying to CONFLATE the two doesn't work brother, no more than trying to say Daniel 10, which is also a part of this THREE CHAPTER Dream, is a part of these End Time Events also, it not. 

Daniel 10 is the Angel showing Daniel about a coming Great king in Alexander the Great and the battle in the Heavens. Daniel 11 is all about the Greek Kings Lineage from Alexander the Great to the coming Anti-Christ as per them being Grecians or Greek Leaders/Kings. Chapter 12 is about the Anti-Christ CONQUERING the Jewish Holy People and thus we are given the DETAILS that Dan. 11 left out because it was intended to be an OVERVIEW. You are trying to go from Dan. 11 to Dan. 12 as if its a continuous flow, its not. He COMES TO HIS END means hes DEAD in verse 45.....THEN we get the DETAILS in ch. 12.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/223437-daniel-11-12-historically-explained-step-by-step/

I have explained the 1260 to you in vivid details. And the 1290 and 1335. You will see it is exactly as I have stated one day. 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Brother, these are the kind of decisions that confuse. It is not understanding. The 144,000  is not METAPHORIC for ALL of Israel. Just so you know, the 144,000 is EXACTLY what God says they are. They are 12,000 virgins from each of the 12 tribes. Now, let's use scripture to prove that 144,000 is NOT A METAPHOR for all of Israel.

Rev 14

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

⁵ And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

So if the scripture says that the 144,000 are redeemed from among men and are before the throne of God, that would mean that ALL of Israel is redeemed from the earth and is in heaven before the lamb of God. We know this is incorrect as we know 1/3 of the nation of Israel is in a place of protection for 42 month during the wrath of God.

Of course it is, you just have so much tunnel vision by being taught of MEN you can't get past your LEARNED WAYS. Just like the Pharisees, "THEY UNDERSTOOD" but they didn't, that is why Jesus chose UNLEARNED BABES to be his disciples. When is the LOCATION of Rev. 7, being between Rev. 6 and 8 going to take hold in your recognition of the timeline ? Never ? WHY is it between the Seals and the Trumps? Because Israel Flees just before the Judgments START !! Thus we get this............Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. {How does THIS CLUE not register with you ? I don't get it/Tunnel Vision}

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

THE FOUR ANGELS that HURT the Earth, Sea AND Trees are the Four Angels that sound the first Four Trumps !! This is beyond obvious, so these 144,000 are MEN that NEED PROTECTION !! They need to be protected from the coming Trumpet Judgments !! They are HUMAN BEINGS, not the First Fruit of anything yet. They will only be the First-fruits when Jesus returns. Lets see, the Anti-Christ Conquers at the FIRST SEAL {regardless of what you thunk brother this is a FACT} and then we get the 144,000 who NEED PROTECTION from the coming Wrath of God/Trumpet Judgments.

Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev. 18:4 is the SAME EVENT as we see in Rev. chapter 7. Its the Fleeing Jews who have already REPENTED !!

The 144,000 are NOT PREACHERS and no one I have challenged on this misnomer has ever proven me wrong, it says that NOWHERE in the bible, ANYWHERE. Rev. 7 goes on to show its ALL Israel in that each tribe is represented because there were NEVER any lost tribes. We get a Metaphoric NUMBER in that 12 equals FULLNESS/Completeness and thus 12 x 12,000 is COMPLETENESS/Fullness or ALL Israel. John could not speak about Israel or the Romans would have went bonkers on the Church members who had this in their possession, it would have been seen by them as TREASON !! These people were all Roman Subjects, sedition was met by death. Thus we get THE WOMAN {Israel} in Rev. 12 and the 144,000 {ALL Israel} in Rev. 7, and you can't see it !! Nowhere is Israel mentioned in the book of Rev. but you don't get the Metaphor nor the reasoning why !! Well now you know why.

The First Four Trumps DEVOUR the Earth, Sea and BURNING TREES !! 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Yep, like I said earlier, it all looks pretty cut and dried that the 144,000 are sealed and go through the wrath of God. But if you understood that the verses in Rev 14 that were quoted above occur during the seals then you could see that they are in heaven when the wrath of God occurs. That can be proven multiple ways, one being that we see the coming of Jesus at the end of Rev 14 for the harvest and we see the beginning of wrath.

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev. 14 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the BoR. Its The Harvest Chapter in general. Everything in this chapter happens after Jesus returns in Revelation 16:19 EXCEPT verse 14 where we see the Church Raptured in a sorta Soliloquy. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Not sure you will get this, but, the 144,000 are the 1st fruits of the harvest. Even as we have already seen above, the 144,000 are in heaven before the wrath of God begins. They are sealed, during the tribulation, which are the 1st 5 seals. We see the great multitude in Rev 7. That is the harvest that the 144,000 are first fruits of, so they will not be on earth during the 42 month wrath of God. The Church will be in heaven, pre trib, the 12 tribes across the earth will be in heaven, pre wrath and only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God and they are in a place of protection. None of God people are appointed to wrath.

I get everything about the BoR, They are the First-fruits of the Jewish Harvest, there are three Harvests, the Wheat.......the Tares and the Church which happens WAY BEFORE the Rev. 14:1 Harvest that actually happens in Rev. 16:19. Rev. 7 has ZILCH to do with the Harvest, that is God protecting the Fleeing Jews supernaturally. NOWHERE does it speak about a Harvest in that chapter, you just ASSUME it in error brother. Jesus GATHERS Israel unto his Barn AFTER he returns, not BEFORE he returns.

The Great Multitude is the Church Age Saints who have ALREADY been Raptured to Heaven, they are not the 144,000 !!

The 12 TRIBES are not in Heaven, the Wheat REMAINS on earth with the WICKED TARES !! Wow man !! You just kinda see what you want to. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

Not sure you will get this, but, the 144,000 are the 1st fruits of the harvest. Even as we have already seen above, the 144,000 are in heaven before the wrath of God begins. They are sealed, during the tribulation, which are the 1st 5 seals. We see the great multitude in Rev 7. That is the harvest that the 144,000 are first fruits of, so they will not be on earth during the 42 month wrath of God. The Church will be in heaven, pre trib, the 12 tribes across the earth will be in heaven, pre wrath and only the nation of Israel goes through the wrath of God and they are in a place of protection. None of God people are appointed to wrath.

No, you are way off kilter on your timing, and thus it throws all of your Eschatology way off. I know more about the BoR than anyone you ever met. That is because God blessed me with that knowledge once He showed me I had to stop relying on OLD MEN'S TRADITIONS, which is where you are still at brother.

6 hours ago, The Light said:

I understand perfectly that the 70th week is the tribulation. I understand that the 70th week has absolutely nothing to do with the 1260 day wrath of God.

Which shows you do not understand anything about the 70th week brother, you don't even understand the 1260. Your timing is WAY OFF. But we will understand by and by, we see darkly now.

God Bless.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Revelation Man

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Quote

The 6th Seal also has ZILCH to do with the Second Coming

Exactly. The 6th seal has zilch to do with the Second Coming when Christ returns with His army from heaven and sets up His kingdom. However it has everything to do with the gathering. The gathering is a rapture. It is a gathering from heaven and earth. The 6th seal is the same coming that we see in Matt 24. Jesus comes in the clouds, the church comes from heaven where they have been for the 7 year, 70th week of Daniel. The twelve tribes that are across the earth, the seed of the woman that are still alive are caught up as is the dead, which go up first. When we look at Matt 24, do we see any armies? No. Do we see a kingdom set up? No. What do we see?

Matt 24

³² Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

³⁴ Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

³⁵ Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

³⁶ But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

³⁷ But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

³⁸ For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

³⁹ And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

⁴⁰ Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴¹ Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

We see a rapture, not Christ and His army.

Mark 13

²⁶ And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

²⁷ And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark 13 we see the Son of Man in the clouds (same as Rev 14) Does Christ smite the nations with a sharp sword from His mouth? No, He does not. Rev 19 shows what He does at the Second Coming, NONE OF WHICH WE SEE IN MATT 24.

Rev 19

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:......

At the coming in Rev 14 (the gathering) what happens at the end of Rev 14? We see wrath beginnning.

Rev 14

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Then we see what happens at the end of wrath

Rev 14

²⁰ And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

It is the exact same thing that you see in Rev 19 with the Second Coming.

Rev 19

15 ................and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

None of these things happen in the coming of Jesus in Matt 24.

Again, the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal after the cosmic signs, is the same coming of Jesus that we see in Matt 24 after the cosmic signs, which is the same coming of Jesus that we see in Rev 14.

 

24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Quote

You are all over the place, nothing is coherently symmetrical at all. Remember, we correct our children because we love them, so don't be angry with me brother for being honest here. The Lord said those he loves he corrects. 

And yet everything that I post agrees with scripture. And I can continually point out things that you are saying that don't agree with scripture. I've shown you that there is absolutely no evidence that the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is the second coming. We do however see a rapture and the parable of the fig tree, which agrees with Jesus coming in the clouds and sending His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth to return to heaven for the marriage supper. And brother, I am not one bit angry with what you are saying. I know WHY you say these things and yet I am continually showing you why the things you are saying do not agree with scripture. And I know if you gathered 100 of the top pretribulation prophecy experts and said: is Matt 24 the Second Coming when Jesus sets up his kingdom or a rapture, I would say likely 100 percent of them would agree with you. And yet, all the scriptural evidence says that it is not the Second Coming. The only reason they think this is that is the only way they can get the timeline to work.

 

 

 

 

[not an echo]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello The Light (and all),

While I disagree with some things Revelation Man says (sometimes I come to disagree with things I have said ), what he says here is so.  All of the seals of the Seven Sealed Scroll or Book must be opened, at least before the contents of the main body can be read, or seen, or even fulfilled.

Let's look at this that God was holding in His "right hand" (Rev. 5:1), first of all as a book, and then as a scroll.

If a book, it was "sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  "If the Scripture makes plain sense, seek no other sense."  The plain sense is that the book is "sealed with seven seals," and that the covers of the book cannot be opened until the seals are removed.  That it was "written within and on the backside" (Rev. 5:1) is commonly understood, as most books are written on the inside, and many, many, have writing on the backside.  When teaching on this subject, I use seven pieces of tape attached to a book to represent these seals.  Everyone always understands that the book is not meant to open until the last piece of tape, or last seal, is removed.  Moreover, it is foundational to correctly understanding The Revelation to realize that the seals represent "things" that were "at hand" to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3) in relation to the time of John's receiving of The Revelation.  Four of these "things" took place as early as late in the first century---the opening of the first four seals.  For most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.  Likewise with the "prophecy" (Rev. 1:3) of The Revelation.  The four horsemen began to go forth at that time and they have been riding ever since.  They are riding today.  This is in harmony with all of Scripture and testified to by 20 centuries of extensive testimony.  Now, perhaps when the first seal was removed, something could be read on the seal or where the seal had been, but the cover would still be sealed.  Same with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals.  The cover of the book cannot be opened, nor its contents made known, nor its contents be fulfilled, until the 7th, or Last Seal is removed.

If a scroll, it was "sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Again, "If the Scripture makes plain sense, seek no other sense."  The plain sense is that the scroll is "sealed with seven seals," and that the scroll cannot be unrolled until the seals are removed.  I have a very nice scroll.  I have even used it as an alternate example, sealing it with seven pieces of tape.  Again, everyone always understands that the scroll is not meant to be unrolled until the last piece of tape, or last seal, is removed.  Now, perhaps when the first seal was removed, something could be read on the seal or where the seal had been.  Perhaps, just perhaps, part of the scroll was able to be unrolled at that time.  Matters not.  The main body of the scroll is different.  Perhaps, just perhaps, when the 2nd Seal is removed, a little more of the scroll can be unrolled.  Perhaps, just perhaps, the same is so for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals.  But, the main body of the scroll cannot be opened, nor its contents made known, nor its contents be fulfilled, until the 7th, or Last Seal is removed.

The seals that God has this book or scroll sealed with---now those are seals!  I just thought about that scene in Crocodile Dundee where that crook confronts Dundee and his girl with a knife.  She hollers, "He's got a knife!!!"  The Croc calmly reaches behind his back and pulls out that Bowie knife and says, "Now, that's a knife!" Unforgettable! 

 

"Charity suffereth long, and is kind;  charity envieth not;  charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;  Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth." (I Cor. 13:4-6)

Hi not an echo, not an echo, not and echo

Heeello...The Light, The Light, The Light...

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Thanks for you comment. However, none of the seals have been opened. The seals will be opened when the 7th King confirms the covenant. That will begin the 70th week of Daniel. That is when the 7th King goes forth conquering and to conquer.

If none of the seals have been opened, what "things" are you thinking John was told were "at hand" to "come to pass" (Rev. 1:1-3)?

The first evidence of the confirming of the covenant is found in Revelation 11:1 (compare Dan. 9:27 and II Thess. 2:4), after which we find the immediate and first mentioning of the two 3-1/2 year time frames of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3).  This is further substantiated by John's seeing the "little book" of Daniel "open" just prior (Rev. 10/Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Looking closer at Revelation 11:1, just because the "temple of God" and "worship" is here spoken of, this does not mean it is God who is being worshipped.  No.  It is the Antichrist, the "man of sin," the "son of perdition," who is here being worshipped---having just confirmed the covenant.  The Jews will be all giddy about the rise of their (supposed) long awaited messiah...till they are not.

8 hours ago, The Light said:

You give a good example as to how you think the book is sealed. I see it differently. It appears to me, by the scripture that the contents can be seen as each seal is opened. meaning the contents will occur as each seal is opened. If it's a book with seven seals, look at it as if there are 7 chapters. Turn to chapter seven and put your tape from chapter seven to the back of the book. That means chapter seven is sealed. Then go to chapter six and do the same thing. Do that with all seven seals. Now when you open seal one, you can read chapter one, but the rest of the book is sealed until the next seal is ready to be opened. If it's scrolls, you just do the same thing.

If I'm understanding you correctly, I can nod my head affirmatively at this, except for putting the tape at chapter seven??? (did you mean chapter eight for the seventh seal/Rev. 8:1?).  And really, heretofore, I haven't seen Revelation 21-22 as being a part of the Seven Sealed Book.  But, I do see these two chapters as being that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His children, so perhaps.  In any case, would the following be a fair representation of how you are seeing it...

Seal #1 is opened and chapter one includes Rev. 6:1-2.

Seal #2 is opened and chapter two includes Rev. 6:3-4.

Seal #3 is opened and chapter three includes Rev. 6:5-6.

Seal #4 is opened and chapter four includes Rev. 6:7-8.

Seal #5 is opened and chapter five includes Rev. 6:9-11.

Seal #6 is opened and chapter six includes Rev. 6:12-17, plus the interlude of Rev. 7:1-17.

Finally, the last seal, Seal #7, is opened and chapter seven includes all of Rev. 8:1 through Rev. 20:15 (and possibly chps. 21-22).

As I see it, this makes for a valid possibility.  However, if this is indeed the way you are seeing it, I don't quite know how what you are saying about the 70th Week can be reconciled with it... 

[The Light]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Quote

The first evidence of the confirming of the covenant is found in Revelation 11:1 (compare Dan. 9:27 and II Thess. 2:4), after which we find the immediate and first mentioning of the two 3-1/2 year time frames of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3). 

Rev 11

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

It seems that you have divided the 70th week into two 3.5 year periods as shown above. Am I following you correctly? In part of the 70th week the holy city shall be tread underfoot for 42 months and the other part the two witnesses prophesy? Am I following you?

 

 

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If I'm understanding you correctly, I can nod my head affirmatively at this, except for putting the tape at chapter seven??? (did you mean chapter eight for the seventh seal/Rev. 8:1?). 

Yes that's what I meant.

 

[not an echo]

19 minutes ago, The Light said:

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

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The first evidence of the confirming of the covenant is found in Revelation 11:1 (compare Dan. 9:27 and II Thess. 2:4), after which we find the immediate and first mentioning of the two 3-1/2 year time frames of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3). 

Rev 11

² But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

³ And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

It seems that you have divided the 70th week into two 3.5 year periods as shown above. Am I following you correctly? In part of the 70th week the holy city shall be tread underfoot for 42 months and the other part the two witnesses prophesy? Am I following you?

Yes, that is my understanding.

[The Light]

6 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Yes, that is my understanding.

In my opinion, those two events occur basically during the same time frame. and those two events occur AFTER the 70th week is over. (There could be a slight overlap)

[The Light]

On 4/10/2020 at 5:10 PM, Revelation Man said:

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Of course it is, you just have so much tunnel vision by being taught of MEN you can't get past your LEARNED WAYS. Just like the Pharisees,

When I see comments like this I just chuckle to myself in dismay. I tilt my downward, close my eyes and just shake my head sideways. I'm not quite sure whether you walk in ignorance or fear. Please point out a few of these learned men that I follow. I would like to read their commentary. Search long and hard and get back to me, who are these men that I follow?

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When is the LOCATION of Rev. 7, being between Rev. 6 and 8 going to take hold in your recognition of the timeline ? Never ? WHY is it between the Seals and the Trumps? Because Israel Flees just before the Judgments START !! Thus we get this............Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. {How does THIS CLUE not register with you ? I don't get it/Tunnel Vision}

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Oh, I understand it completely. I also understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump. I also understand that we can see the beginning of wrath in Rev 14 and also the end, or at least up to Armageddon. I also understand that we can see the beginning of wrath with the 1st vial and the end of wrath at the 7th vial. If you understood these things then you would understand Rev  7 based on what we see with the 144,000 at the beginning of Rev 14. You are the one that follows what other men say. 

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THE FOUR ANGELS that HURT the Earth, Sea AND Trees are the Four Angels that sound the first Four Trumps !! This is beyond obvious, so these 144,000 are MEN that NEED PROTECTION !! They need to be protected from the coming Trumpet Judgments !!

It certainly appears that way, doesn't it. So in Rev 7, we see the great multitude. That is the harvest. I wonder who is the 1st fruits of this harvest. If you understood that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump you might understand that we are back in the seals in the beginning of Rev 14.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

How can you possibly understand the Word of God if you don't believe what it says?  In Rev 11 we see that when the 7th angel sounds the trumpet, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ

What does that mean to you. Do you just skip these verses and pretend they are not there? Or do you make up some kind of metaphor and explain it all away?

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They are HUMAN BEINGS, not the First Fruit of anything yet. They will only be the First-fruits when Jesus returns. Lets see, the Anti-Christ Conquers at the FIRST SEAL {regardless of what you thunk brother this is a FACT} and then we get the 144,000 who NEED PROTECTION from the coming Wrath of God/Trumpet Judgments.

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest at the end of Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

That happens to be the same harvest that you see at the end of Rev 6, which is the multitude that you see in Rev 7. That is also the same harvest that you see in Matt 24. You might see white horses and armies, and Armageddon etc, etc in Matt 24, but the Word shows a gathering from heaven and earth. It also shows a rapture. Are you going to start believing EXACTLY WHAT THE WORD SAYS or are you going to live in imaginations, and your metaphors and what you think it has to mean? Why not just believe what it says. There is no Armageddon in Matt 24. How can you not see that?
 

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Rev. 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Rev. 18:4 is the SAME EVENT as we see in Rev. chapter 7. Its the Fleeing Jews who have already REPENTED !!

 

Too many other problems to deal with, no need for another can of worms.

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The 144,000 are NOT PREACHERS and no one I have challenged on this misnomer has ever proven me wrong, it says that NOWHERE in the bible, ANYWHERE.

Please find a post that shows I say they are preachers. Again, they are EXACTLY what God says they are. The are 144,000 virgins, 12,000 from each tribe and they are the 1st fruits of a coming harvest of the Jews scattered across the world. 1st fruits are presented to God in the wave offering. When accepted, they are a guarantee of a harvest (I have already proven that they are NOT ALL OF ISRAEL).

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Rev. 7 goes on to show its ALL Israel in that each tribe is represented because there were NEVER any lost tribes. We get a Metaphoric NUMBER in that 12 equals FULLNESS/Completeness and thus 12 x 12,000 is COMPLETENESS/Fullness or ALL Israel. John could not speak about Israel or the Romans would have went bonkers on the Church members who had this in their possession, it would have been seen by them as TREASON !! These people were all Roman Subjects, sedition was met by death. Thus we get THE WOMAN {Israel} in Rev. 12 and the 144,000 {ALL Israel} in Rev. 7, and you can't see it !! Nowhere is Israel mentioned in the book of Rev. but you don't get the Metaphor nor the reasoning why !! Well now you know why.

I have already proven your made up metaphor (traditions and teaching of men) is baloney. We see the 144,000 in heaven in Rev 14.

Rev 14

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

First fruits are exactly what God says they are. They guarantee a harvest and the harvest will be the 12 tribes across the earth (not the nation of Israel) How can you understand the Word when you won't believe what it says?

 

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Rev. 14 is not a part of the Chronological Order of the BoR. Its The Harvest Chapter in general. Everything in this chapter happens after Jesus returns in Revelation 16:19 EXCEPT verse 14 where we see the Church Raptured in a sorta Soliloquy. 

Wow. I guess you can get everything into a timeline if you make enough exceptions. If God said it, I would believe it, but that's not whats happening here. You just have no explanation for what is happening so you have to change things.

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I get everything about the BoR,

Really?

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They are the First-fruits of the Jewish Harvest, there are three Harvests, the Wheat.......the Tares and the Church which happens WAY BEFORE the Rev. 14:1 Harvest that actually happens in Rev. 16:19. Rev. 7 has ZILCH to do with the Harvest, that is God protecting the Fleeing Jews supernaturally. NOWHERE does it speak about a Harvest in that chapter, you just ASSUME it in error brother. Jesus GATHERS Israel unto his Barn AFTER he returns, not BEFORE he returns.

I understand why you can't see. Maybe if you accepted the Word that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump things would look different.

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The Great Multitude is the Church Age Saints who have ALREADY been Raptured to Heaven, they are not the 144,000 !!

The Great Multitude is a combination of the Church (which is gathered from heaven as they go there pretrib before any seals are opened) and the 12 twelve tribes that are across the earth(not the nation of Israel). The 144,000 are the 1st fruits of the gathering from the earth, EXACTLY like it says.

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The 12 TRIBES are not in Heaven, the Wheat REMAINS on earth with the WICKED TARES !! Wow man !! You just kinda see what you want to. 

Maybe this will clear things up for you.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Wait a minute, how can I see what I want, and yet you say that I follow the traditions of men?

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No, you are way off kilter on your timing, and thus it throws all of your Eschatology way off. I know more about the BoR than anyone you ever met. That is because God blessed me with that knowledge once He showed me I had to stop relying on OLD MEN'S TRADITIONS, which is where you are still at brother.

You seem rattled brother. You say I follow the OLD MEN'S TRADITIONS and yet it appears that it is you that do so. Again, if I am following old mens traditions, who are these men. Point one out.

There is a difference between what we see, no doubt. I accept EXACTLY what the word of God says. I don't need to imagine an Armageddon in Matt 24 to make my timeline work. I don't need to imagine that the 144,000 first fruits represent all of Israel etc. etc. etc. etc. When the word says that the wrath is over when the 7th angel begins to sound, I BELIEVE IT, and accept it. The Word of God speaks for itself and if you want to understand it, you will accept what it says.

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Which shows you do not understand anything about the 70th week brother, you don't even understand the 1260. Your timing is WAY OFF. But we will understand by and by, we see darkly now.

I understand that the 70th week is over BEFORE the wrath of God begins. How can you not see that?

Let's take your timeline and prove what you are saying is incorrect.

If I understand you correctly, you think that the 1st 3.5 years are quiet for Israel. They are drinking the Kool Aid of the antichrist. Then the abomination of desolation gets set up in the middle of the week and then all hell breaks loose. Well if this is true at that point Israel goes to her place of protection for a time, times and half a time. (1260 days, 3.5 years)

So, it it is all quiet for Israel for 3.5 years and Israel is in a place of protection for 3.5 years, how could this possibly be the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE. Can't you see what you are saying doesn't work?

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by The Light

[Revelation Man]

3 minutes ago, The Light said:

When I see comments like this I just chuckle to myself in dismay. I tilt my downward, close my eyes and just shake my head sideways. I'm not quite sure whether you walk in ignorance or fear. Please point out a few of these learned men that I follow. I would like to read their commentary. Search long and hard and get back to me, who are these men that I follow?

 

You, like many people,  follow MEN'S TRADITIONS, it speaks for itself. I am sure the Pharisees shook their heads also. Tunnel vision is a bad, bad thing, especially to those trying to teach Eschatology, the truth is most who try to teach it were not called to Eschatology, but try to force it. A hand need to be a hand, not a foot. I wen t 25 years sticking with the things I learned in Eschatology from men, until God spoke to me when I asked Him a question, why is the Church so mixed up on what Babylon is, the Rapture, the Harlot is, the Woman of Rev. 12 is etc. And I got this, "Ron, you guys already know everything" And that is when it hit me, God can't tell us His truths because we BLOCK them via OUR TRUTHS passed down from men !! So keep on saying you don't follow men's traditions if you want to, some might even be YOUR OWN, but what you give here is not from God brother as per your Eschatology. I simply started ALL OVER, and asked God to show me His truths as per Eschatology. It works, just like it did with the Gospels. Now does God/Jesus choosing BABES as disciples register my point ? He wanted a BLANK CANVAS !! As per Eschatology, we come with a learning from MEN, who really NEVER KNEW.

55 minutes ago, The Light said:

Oh, I understand it completely. I also understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump. I also understand that we can see the beginning of wrath in Rev 14 and also the end, or at least up to Armageddon. I also understand that we can see the beginning of wrath with the 1st vial and the end of wrath at the 7th vial. If you understood these things then you would understand Rev  7 based on what we see with the 144,000 at the beginning of Rev 14. You are the one that follows what other men say. 

 

The 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe, which is ALL 7 Vials, and thus it ends in Rev. 16:19, do you get that? It doesn't END in Rev. 11 or Rev. 14 per se, both of those are just Parenthetical Citation chapters that tell of OTHER THINGS {Two-Witnesses 1260 day TIMELINE & the Harvests of God} going on at the SAME TIME. 

2 hours ago, The Light said:

It certainly appears that way, doesn't it. So in Rev 7, we see the great multitude. That is the harvest. I wonder who is the 1st fruits of this harvest. If you understood that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump you might understand that we are back in the seals in the beginning of Rev 14.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

How can you possibly understand the Word of God if you don't believe what it says?  In Rev 11 we see that when the 7th angel sounds the trumpet, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ

What does that mean to you. Do you just skip these verses and pretend they are not there? Or do you make up some kind of metaphor and explain it all away?

Which ends in Rev. 16:19, because the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials. You don't seem to quite get that !!

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, the 7th Trump = the 3rd Woe WHICH IS.......The 7 Vials of Rev. 16..........so it indeed ends with the 7th Trump, just after the 7th Vial is poured out.

If I have wrote this once I have written it 100 times, people don't read it seems. ONE MORE TRY.

Revelation 11 is NOT a part of the Chronological Order of the BoR. Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and most of 19 are Parenthetical Citations of THINGS HAPPENING during the Judgment Chapters.  6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16, I now think 6 is a FORETELLING of what's coming and Rev. 7 is describing Israel as Fleeing Judea followed by describing the Raptured Church in Heaven. THEN comes the Judgment chapters.

Rev. 11 starts BEFORE the Day of the Lord because the Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the DOTL, if someone gave this to me and I never understood it, I would get it right off the bat. Its CLEAR why both the Two-witnesses and the Beast have 1260 day OFFICES on earth, so we can JUXTAPOSE their timelines against each other via God's majestic plannings. If the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe {AND THEY DO} and the Beasts dies at the 7th Vial {AND HE DOES} then their timelines CAN NOT RUN LINEAR do you not get this? That means if the Two-witnesses DIE FIRST then they also have to SHOW UP FIRST, this is simple stuff once we finally see it, but it shouldn't be so difficult to digest {SAVE for Men' Traditions}. Malachi 4:5-6 says Elijah will be sent back BEFORE the Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God !! So Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses TIMELINE, not the BoR timeline per se. Its NOT a part of the order of the BoR. They show up 75 days {1335} BEFORE the Beast {1260} and thus the Jews have already REPENTED b y the time the Beast Conquers Israel/Jerusalem, and 45 days before the AoD happens at the hands of the False Prophet {Jewish High Priest}. Rev. 11 IS NOT the end, because it not a part of the overall Chronological Order of the BoR to start with. Its like Gen. 1 and Gen. 2 but you can't seem to grasp that it is a PARENTHETICAL CITATION !! That is on you brother. That is why you can't grasp it, that is why Babylon is said to fall 3 or 4 times in the BoR, they are all the SAME EVENT !! 

I have explained Rev. 11 to you personally COUNTLESS TIMES so I guess you just skip it and reply, or else you wouldn't as the same question over and over. We see the 2nd Woe in Rev. 11 also right ? BUT the DETAILS for the 2nd Woe is given to us in Rev. 9 IS OT NOT !! YESSSSSSSS IT IS !! Likewise, you are told about the 3rd Woe {7th Trump} in Rev. 11 also, BUT not given the DETAILS !! We see the DETAILS in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials. That is the 3rd Woe, which is the 7th Trump. You are the one that can't grasp it brother, because you have other MAN MADE UNDERSTANDING'S {Even if they are FROM YOU}  you can't drop. 

2 hours ago, The Light said:

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest at the end of Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

That happens to be the same harvest that you see at the end of Rev 6, which is the multitude that you see in Rev 7. That is also the same harvest that you see in Matt 24. You might see white horses and armies, and Armageddon etc, etc in Matt 24, but the Word shows a gathering from heaven and earth. It also shows a rapture. Are you going to start believing EXACTLY WHAT THE WORD SAYS or are you going to live in imaginations, and your metaphors and what you think it has to mean? Why not just believe what it says. There is no Armageddon in Matt 24. How can you not see that?

The 144,000 {ALL Israel who REPENT or the 1/3 who REPENT} are never called First-fruits in Rev. 7, go find it, its not there, they are only called First-fruits in Rev. 14, AFTER Jesus lands on Mt. Zion, do you not get that ? And they have the Fathers name in their Forehead !! In verse 4 they are called First-fruits

Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

It has ZILCH to do with Rev. 6, which is just Jesus opening up the 6th Seal. The Harvest is Jesus on Mt. Zion !! Now go read Rev. 16:19 where Jesus lands on Mt. Zion and defeats the NATIONS called Babylon !! And NO, its not the Multitude seen in Rev. 7 in Heaven, that is the Raptured Church who are indeed Raptured Pre 70th week. Not AFTERWARDS, its the SAME CHURCH seen in Rev. chapters 4 and 5 BEFORE the Seals are opened. Matt. 24:29-31 is seen in Rev. 16:19 and in Rev. ch. 19. Its also Rev. 14:18-20 and Rev. the 7TH TRUMP, Except we are not given the coming DETAILS of the 3rd Woe EVENTS. 

You don't grasp what the word is saying as per the TIMING of Eschatology, some people are not called to this. Armageddon is indeed happening at the Second Coming. We see the Second Coming in Matt. 24:29-31, YOU DON'T but you are in error sir. 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Wow. I guess you can get everything into a timeline if you make enough exceptions. If God said it, I would believe it, but that's not whats happening here. You just have no explanation for what is happening so you have to change things.

 

Rev. 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

NOW............WHO IS RIGHT ? Jesus is seen on Mt Zion in the very FIRST VERSE !! EVERYTHING here is AFTER the Second Coming !!

Rev. 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts{Jerusalem/EARTHQUAKE/Mt. Zion}, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So, Rev. 14 STARTS with Jesus on Mt. Zion, the same thing we see in Rev. 16:19 !! Then we see Rev. 14 ends with the WINE-PRESS of God's Wrath being filled with the WICKED GRAPES He gathered !! Same as Rev. 16:19 !! I know what I speak of brother, I am not just guessing. This is my job to know. I am called to this, I wouldn't dare be GUESSING and calling it of God !! The fact is YOU CAN'T SEE IT....Because you have tunnel vision. You can't open your eyes because like me for 25 years you KNOW IT ALREADY !! That HINDERS God !! God don't need us brother, nor our thoughts. We just have to YIELD !! 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Really?

Really.....listening gets us to where we need to be. TALKING over God's prompts gets us nowhere. 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

I understand why you can't see. Maybe if you accepted the Word that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trump things would look different.

 

The Wrath of God STARTS at the 1st Trump and ends at the 7th Vial which is the 3rd Woe. It runs from Rev. 8 where the 7th Seal is opened bringing forth the 7 Trumps to Rev. 16:19 where Jesus LANDS on Mt. Zion and defeats all the Wicked.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Really?

The Jews {Wheat} MUST STAY ON EARTH with the Wicked Tares until the VERY END !! Come on man !! Go read the Parable again !!

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Maybe this will clear things up for you.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Wait a minute, how can I see what I want, and yet you say that I follow the traditions of men?

This is the church being Raptured {this is the HARVEST CHAPTER remember} in verses 14--16, THEN we see the WICKED TARES Raptured in verses 17-19. NOTICE: Jesus from upon a Cloud THRUSTS in the Sickle to Rapture the Church Saints but another Angel THRUSTS in the Sickle to Harvest the Wicked and thrust them into the Winepress of God's Wrath. So its true....YOU DON'T SEE IT !! 

Go look up what a SOLILOQUY MEANS.....That is what happens in verse 14-16, we see 7 Years BEFORE when Jesus Raptured the Church !! From a CLOUD !!

3 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem rattled brother. You say I follow the OLD MEN'S TRADITIONS and yet it appears that it is you that do so. Again, if I am following old mens traditions, who are these men. Point one out.

There is a difference between what we see, no doubt. I accept EXACTLY what the word of God says. I don't need to imagine an Armageddon in Matt 24 to make my timeline work. I don't need to imagine that the 144,000 first fruits represent all of Israel etc. etc. etc. etc. When the word says that the wrath is over when the 7th angel begins to sound, I BELIEVE IT, and accept it. The Word of God speaks for itself and if you want to understand it, you will accept what it says.

If you were being INTELLECTUALLY HONEST brother you would admit you know exactly what I am saying here, which I have stated before many times, that I used to do LIKEWISE on Eschatology for 25 years {until 5 or 6 years ago}. So, I get all my Eschatology answers now from God, not men, which is the mistake you are still making, OR maybe you just weren't called this this line of work to start with. You can't EXCEPT what the word says if you are not willing to unravel the RIDDLE God has laid out there ON PURPOSE, to confuse the World. You can BELIEVE all you want, its the lack of understanding that makes us perish according to God's Word. 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

I understand that the 70th week is over BEFORE the wrath of God begins. How can you not see that?

 

Because that is an UNTRUTH. 

3 hours ago, The Light said:

Let's take your timeline and prove what you are saying is incorrect.

If I understand you correctly, you think that the 1st 3.5 years are quiet for Israel. They are drinking the Kool Aid of the antichrist. Then the abomination of desolation gets set up in the middle of the week and then all hell breaks loose. Well if this is true at that point Israel goes to her place of protection for a time, times and half a time. (1260 days, 3.5 years)

So, it it is all quiet for Israel for 3.5 years and Israel is in a place of protection for 3.5 years, how could this possibly be the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE. Can't you see what you are saying doesn't work?

Because all time on earth without Jesus is Tribulation, Jesus said so, then we get the GREATEST EVER TROUBLES for 3.5 years while Israel are in the Petra and Bozrah area.......NOW, a question for you. Lets say you had a family of Aunts/Uncles/Cousins/Sister sand brothers consisting of 100 people, and there was GREAT TROUBLE coming down from som Evil Entity, and only 1/3 of your Family make it to a SAFE AREA !! You do understand that means 2/3 of those Famuily members will be a GREAT DANGER right ? Just because you are protected, your heart would be BREAKING for those family members. Just because 1/3 of the Jews REPENT and are thus PROTECTED doesn't mean there will not be GREAT SADNESS for Israel, after all, the 2/3 who will DIE are also Jews !! 

Also, living in a Rock Enclosure for 3.5 years for Modern day people will not be something they are used to, no doubt. So I can see why you CAN'T SEE, it because you try to fit all the answers to your predisposed opinions. 

God Bless brother.