The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[not an echo]

Hello all,

I have been encouraged to show a chart of the way I am seeing things.  I have always loved charts and pictures.  I cut and pasted this chart (and some explanatory notes) from my thread, The Pre-Trib Rapture and The Day of the Lord (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/251771-the-pre-trib-rapture-and-the-day-of-the-lord/).  Because the present thread concerns the opening of the 1st Seal, I felt that this chart would be helpful here.  I briefly touch on the activity of the horsemen, as this activity relates to my chart, in the second paragraph of my explanatory notes below.  Also, I added an illustration to my opening post.

In accord with my above chart, I see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17 with 7:9-17;  Matt. 24:29-31 with Lk. 21:25-27;  Acts 2:20).  In tune with Paul's words, I see the Day of the Lord beginning this same day as well (Rev. 6:17 with I Thess. 4:13-5:11, esp. 5:1-3).  This is possible because the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, all in accord with the prophetic points that converge at the opening of these seals.  I believe the Seven Sealed Book could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD, for that is what this book is all about.  Daniel's 70th Week will not begin until some months later (e.g., Rev. 9:5, 10) and not until after the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" in Revelation 10 (cp. Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  The first evidences that Daniel's 70th Week has begun is in the opening verses of Revelation 11.  The seals have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, or the Day of the Lord.  They connect with the era of the Church, or Church Age, and represent what will take place up until the Day of the Lord begins.

Christ refers to His appearance after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16) as "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Realize that the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory"!  The tribulation Christ speaks of in Matthew 24:29 is not Daniel's 70th Week, but the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals throughout the course of post-apostolic history until now.  Of course, Satan has always been active, both in the world and in the lives of individuals.  But since the days of the apostles, his activity in the world can be seen through the things that have taken place that Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11).  As I see it, the four horsemen have left quite a trail and they are even now kicking up dust all over the world.  I can almost envision Satan negotiating with Almighty God for the liberties that he has been granted to ply his craft during the Church Age.  These spiritual realm liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Realize that Satan would not have liberty to squirm, unless given such liberty by Almighty God.

Daniel's 70th Week will be brought to an abrupt close with Christ's Second Coming as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon.  Satan's liberties will then be put on hold when he is bound for the 1000 years of Christ's Millennial Reign (Rev. 20:1-3), after which he will be given liberties one last time (Rev. 20:7-9).  Then he will meet his eternal doom (Rev. 20:10).  Following this, the Great White Throne Judgment will take place and the Day of the Lord will come to a close (Rev. 20:11-15).  Then will commence that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His saved, to continue for all eternity (Rev. 21-22)!

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.  Amen" (Rev. 22:21).

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

Back when I learned that a link could be added, I thought it would be a good idea for me to come back and add links to my other seal threads but I never seemed to get the time.  I guess if I don't take the time, it will never happen. 

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

The Fifth Seal Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
add links

[Diaste]

On 4/29/2020 at 9:42 PM, not an echo said:

The seals have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, or the Day of the Lord.  They connect with the era of the Church, or Church Age, and represent what will take place up until the Day of the Lord begins.

Interesting. So then when did this occur,

"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” - Rev 6. 6th seal.

if the seals have nothing to do with the 70th week or the DOTL? Shouldn't there be some historical evidence of the mountains and islands all being gone? And when did the sky roll back and the whole world tremble?

Your statement literally says the wrath of God has already happened, or will happen before the Day of the Lord; a day associated with His wrath in both OT and NT.

How would we know if we were in the Day of the Lord? Maybe we are right now. But I can allow for this to be yet future from today.

What about the 5th seal? So we have  fellow servants being killed in a particular manner right now?

There must be some evidence of the 4th seal for sure, yes? Even if the 5th seal is still future there has to be some historical evidence to support the idea "The seals have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, or the Day of the Lord". Is there any evidence "they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth." this has occurred in the historical record and can be positively linked to the 4th seal?

Are you thinking the Khans here? Maybe 700 years of Islamic conquest? And is that a fourth of the 'land' or a fourth of the 'earth'? Land makes up one fourth of the earth, about 29%. This could mean the whole earth.

And if seals 4-6 have not occurred then how can you be sure the 3rd seal has happened?

I'm all for this but where is the proof? 

[Diaste]

On 4/29/2020 at 9:42 PM, not an echo said:

Christ refers to His appearance after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16) as "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Realize that the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory"!  The tribulation Christ speaks of in Matthew 24:29 is not Daniel's 70th Week, but the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals throughout the course of post-apostolic history until now.  Of course, Satan has always been active, both in the world and in the lives of individuals.  But since the days of the apostles, his activity in the world can be seen through the things that have taken place that Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11).  As I see it, the four horsemen have left quite a trail and they are even now kicking up dust all over the world.  I can almost envision Satan negotiating with Almighty God for the liberties that he has been granted to ply his craft during the Church Age.  These spiritual realm liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Realize that Satan would not have liberty to squirm, unless given such liberty by Almighty God.

Daniel's 70th Week will be brought to an abrupt close with Christ's Second Coming as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon. 

Two second comings? One at the 6th seal which as you state must be before the 70th week begins and before the DOTL; then another second coming at the Valley of Decision? 

And another thing; wars, pestilence, plague, earthquakes, etc., were not happening before the Apostles? Or before the Apostles it wasn't Satan doing it? And there were no false messiahs before the 1st century? No one ever came in the name of the Most High and deceived people before Jesus choose the 12? 

 

[not an echo]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2020 at 10:42 PM, not an echo said:

The seals have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, or the Day of the Lord.  They connect with the era of the Church, or Church Age, and represent what will take place up until the Day of the Lord begins.

Interesting. So then when did this occur,

"The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?” - Rev 6. 6th seal.

if the seals have nothing to do with the 70th week or the DOTL? Shouldn't there be some historical evidence of the mountains and islands all being gone? And when did the sky roll back and the whole world tremble?

Your statement literally says the wrath of God has already happened, or will happen before the Day of the Lord; a day associated with His wrath in both OT and NT.

How would we know if we were in the Day of the Lord? Maybe we are right now. But I can allow for this to be yet future from today.

Hello Diaste,

Just been looking at some of my old threads and I'm kicking myself for not getting back to you on this back in October!

I certainly do not believe that anything relating to the 6th or 7th Seal has yet happened, but I can see how someone, at first glance, might mistake what I am saying.  Let me clarify a little.

First of all, look at my chart and notes at the top of this page.  This (as well as other posts I have made in this thread) will give you a better sense of how I am seeing things.

Basically, I see all the seals as representing what must take place before the Seven Sealed Book can be opened.  Like seven locks on a treasure chest, the contents of the chest cannot be observed until the seven locks are removed and the lid opened.  With the Seven Sealed Book, I believe very similarly, except, with each seal that is removed, something is said to occur.  For me, the most apparent take away from this is that the seals represent what will take place before the book is opened.  I do see the first five seals as being already open, the first four from as early as the first century.

Further, and something that has engaged my thinking for decades, is the thought that a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book would be THE DAY OF THE LORD, for that is what this book is all about (Acts 2:20 with Rev. 6:12-17).  Be assured, I do not believe anything relating to the 6th Seal has yet occurred, nor the 7th Seal, nor the Day of the Lord.  Something very important to note is my understanding that the 6th Seal and the 7th Seal can be opened the same day.  From another angle, the same day that the rapture occurs (with the opening of the 6th Seal), the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6:17), because the 7th Seal will be opened the same day.  This means, the Day of the Lord will commence the same day that the rapture occurs (I Thess. 4:13-18 with 5:1-4ff).  When the implications of all this are understood in light of other scriptures, a lot of prophecy puzzle pieces come together and fit much better for me.  Much better.

As I think on the above, my mind goes to my wife's pregnancy with my only child.  There was the nine months of her pregnancy, and then there was the day he was born.  It would be quite normal to understand that the pregnancy did not end until the very day he was born.  Interestingly, before my son was actually born, my wife was still in the time of her pregnancy, even the morning of the day of the show (9-12-92).  We had known that the time of my son's birth was drawing very near, but we did not know that he would be born on this particular day.  At 8 a.m. all was well.  At 9 a.m. all was still well.  At 10 a.m., my wife was standing in the kitchen and water started streaming down her legs and puddling on the floor!  All of a sudden, all was not well!   Of course, we quickly put 2 & 2 together and realized her water had broke.  Though he had still not yet been born, because he would be born later that same day, it can truthfully be said that the day of my son had come!  Yet, when my wife's water broke, she was still in her pregnancy, howbeit, in the last of the last stages.  Like the era of the Church and the Day of the Lord, I see us in the last stages of the Church era---but the water has not yet broke, if you will.  I see that as happening the day the 6th Seal is removed.  And, that same day, the Day of the Lord will have come.  Just a little sidebar---I see the word "day" as representing a period of time, like the day of the computer.  Like the day of my son, it has continued for 28 years.  Like my day, or your day Diaste.  Concerning the Day of the Lord, I see it as continuing from the opening of the Seven Sealed Book through the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

With these things in mind, can I rightly suggest that my son was sealed in his mother's womb TILL HE WASN'T, and there is a distinct difference between the pregnancy side and the birth side?  Same as there is a distinct difference between the outside of the Seven Sealed Book and what is between its covers?  Same as there is a distinct difference between the era of the Church and the Day of the Lord?

I've got to stop for the night.  Pardon my reminiscing some and being so wordy.  But, I believe if you will think on it, you will find that the foregoing is pregnant with meaning...

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Just been looking at some of my old threads and I'm kicking myself for not getting back to you on this back in October!

I certainly do not believe that anything relating to the 6th or 7th Seal has yet happened, but I can see how someone, at first glance, might mistake what I am saying.  Let me clarify a little.

First of all, look at my chart and notes at the top of this page.  This (as well as other posts I have made in this thread) will give you a better sense of how I am seeing things.

Basically, I see all the seals as representing what must take place before the Seven Sealed Book can be opened.  Like seven locks on a treasure chest, the contents of the chest cannot be observed until the seven locks are removed and the lid opened.  With the Seven Sealed Book, I believe very similarly, except, with each seal that is removed, something is said to occur.  For me, the most apparent take away from this is that the seals represent what will take place before the book is opened.  I do see the first five seals as being already open, the first four from as early as the first century.

Further, and something that has engaged my thinking for decades, is the thought that a fitting title for the Seven Sealed Book would be THE DAY OF THE LORD, for that is what this book is all about (Acts 2:20 with Rev. 6:12-17).  Be assured, I do not believe anything relating to the 6th Seal has yet occurred, nor the 7th Seal, nor the Day of the Lord.  Something very important to note is my understanding that the 6th Seal and the 7th Seal can be opened the same day.  From another angle, the same day that the rapture occurs (with the opening of the 6th Seal), the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6:17), because the 7th Seal will be opened the same day.  This means, the Day of the Lord will commence the same day that the rapture occurs (I Thess. 4:13-18 with 5:1-4ff).  When the implications of all this are understood in light of other scriptures, a lot of prophecy puzzle pieces come together and fit much better for me.  Much better.

As I think on the above, my mind goes to my wife's pregnancy with my only child.  There was the nine months of her pregnancy, and then there was the day he was born.  It would be quite normal to understand that the pregnancy did not end until the very day he was born.  Interestingly, before my son was actually born, my wife was still in the time of her pregnancy, even the morning of the day of the show (9-12-92).  We had known that the time of my son's birth was drawing very near, but we did not know that he would be born on this particular day.  At 8 a.m. all was well.  At 9 a.m. all was still well.  At 10 a.m., my wife was standing in the kitchen and water started streaming down her legs and puddling on the floor!  All of a sudden, all was not well!   Of course, we quickly put 2 & 2 together and realized her water had broke.  Though he had still not yet been born, because he would be born later that same day, it can truthfully be said that the day of my son had come!  Yet, when my wife's water broke, she was still in her pregnancy, howbeit, in the last of the last stages.  Like the era of the Church and the Day of the Lord, I see us in the last stages of the Church era---but the water has not yet broke, if you will.  I see that as happening the day the 6th Seal is removed.  And, that same day, the Day of the Lord will have come.  Just a little sidebar---I see the word "day" as representing a period of time, like the day of the computer.  Like the day of my son, it has continued for 28 years.  Like my day, or your day Diaste.  Concerning the Day of the Lord, I see it as continuing from the opening of the Seven Sealed Book through the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

With these things in mind, can I rightly suggest that my son was sealed in his mother's womb TILL HE WASN'T, and there is a distinct difference between the pregnancy side and the birth side?  Same as there is a distinct difference between the outside of the Seven Sealed Book and what is between its covers?  Same as there is a distinct difference between the era of the Church and the Day of the Lord?

I've got to stop for the night.  Pardon my reminiscing some and being so wordy.  But, I believe if you will think on it, you will find that the foregoing is pregnant with meaning...

Ah, childbirth. I have been an eyewitness. Near to the most amazing, wonderful thing I have ever seen, save a couple things. 

I never found the logic fitting when describing the opening of the seals and the book when it's said all the seals must be broken before the book is opened. 

Rev 5 describes a papyrus roll. It's not a book with pages and hardcovers sealed 7 times on the outside.

Rev 6 shows us a one to one relationship of seal/event. 

A papyrus roll or a scroll has the seals on the inside throughout the rolled up paper.

In ancient times words were written on a paper, it was rolled up then a wax seal applied. The process was repeated and many seals could be in a single scroll and preserved the important writings and scrolls. In this way it would be known if the scroll was altered if the seals were broken. 

This is what we are seeing in Rev 5-6. A papyrus roll sealed inside and as it's unrolled the seal are loosed to reveal what has been preserved. The text in Rev 6 does not lead us to a book with seven seals on the outside.

There really isn't any proof seals have been opened and we are waiting on the 6th seal. I think this is a rationalization of pretrib to explain away the clear timing of the Return of Jesus and the gathering. 

Pretrib and others have finally come to the realization of the timing of the one and only gathering and must find a way to still remain pretribulational. So now they say some seals have been opened spritualizing seals 1-5 and spreading them out over millennia. 

In this way the tribulation still doesn't happen to them and all we are waiting on is Jesus and the gathering. That is not how it's going to happen. The beast is yet to rise. I'm pretty sure when the end begins we won't misunderstand nor will it be found in the obscurity of the distant past.

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

What about the 5th seal? So we have  fellow servants being killed in a particular manner right now?

Concerning the 5th Seal, if you have already seen the OP of my thread concerning this seal, I hope you will take a fresh look at it.  If not, I hope you will take a first look at it.  We could even discuss it further in that thread if you would like.  Of course, there will always be at least a couple of ways that things can be understood.  The understanding that I have come to concerning this seal fits the whole picture (for me) much better than anything I have seen put forth elsewhere, whether in books or the web world.

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/).

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:05 AM, Diaste said:

There must be some evidence of the 4th seal for sure, yes? Even if the 5th seal is still future there has to be some historical evidence to support the idea "The seals have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th Week, or the Day of the Lord". Is there any evidence "they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth." this has occurred in the historical record and can be positively linked to the 4th seal?

Are you thinking the Khans here? Maybe 700 years of Islamic conquest? And is that a fourth of the 'land' or a fourth of the 'earth'? Land makes up one fourth of the earth, about 29%. This could mean the whole earth.

And if seals 4-6 have not occurred then how can you be sure the 3rd seal has happened?

I'm all for this but where is the proof? 

Concerning "the fourth part of the earth" (Rev. 6:8), I most definitely see this as indicating geography (not population, as is popularly put forth).  I speak some to this in my second post of the following thread, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

Concerning, the 3rd Seal having been opened ("then how can you be sure the 3rd seal has happened?"), I think there is undeniable evidence of this to be found when poverty statistics are looked into.  Consider what I show in my thread on this seal, The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

And Diaste, if I have correctly understood you in the past, you have freely acknowledged that things like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (that are paralleled by the first four seals) have occurred, both before and after His time on the earth.  Where I believe we may differ is that you are looking for evidence of more, while I am seeing evidence enough.  As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and some 2000 years of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that what Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g. Matt. 24:5-11) has fit every century since that time, if not every decade, if not every year.  The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!  And consider very carefully:  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Atheists and agnostics should take note.  I would not want to venture what even the next week will hold!  I have not heard of one psychic that foresaw what the last year has held.  Who alive can say what things will be 10 years from now, much less 1000 years...times 2?  But, Jesus Christ said what it was going to be!  And, what He said further, in Matthew 24:12---we are there.  And, what He said further, in verse 14a---we are there.  Again, I am seeing evidence enough.  We know that Satan is in the hoodwinking business.  With a hoodwink on, one cannot see what is right in front of his or her face.  I hope you will consider further Diaste.  I think Satan has effectively hoodwinked God's children for much too long.  The horsemen have been riding all this time---and they will be riding today.  History is absolutely littered with their hoofprints.  At times, it might be one riding hard and the others taking it easy.  At other times, it may be two.  At other times, all four.  Just enough to do their business, but not enough to blow their cover.  But, when their dust settles, you can see their trails...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

And Diaste, if I have correctly understood you in the past, you have freely acknowledged that things like Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse (that are paralleled by the first four seals) have occurred, both before and after His time on the earth.  Where I believe we may differ is that you are looking for evidence of more, while I am seeing evidence enough. 

Yes and no. I'm not saying I need more evidence, I'm wondering about the fulfillment. How is it possible for the disciples to ask, Jesus to answer, and then liken the answer to two or three millennia of mankind's existence?

When will these things be and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?

How does the interpretation of multiple millennia coincide with the answer Jesus gave?

There is no fulfillment if the prophecy come to pass is spread over 100 generations.

Look at the spread of false christs and the those who falsely come in His name in, just in the US. There are dozens of fakers all getting rich spreading lies and false teaching. And it's getting worse. I don't even see this as the full brunt of this catastrophe;  "For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many."

I looked it up once. The people who have claimed to be Christ in the flesh. There was  lot of them going way back. That's just what we have records for. No telling if there were more or not. But we can see from scripture the false doctrines, and no doubt the parallels of false christs, were occurring in the 1st century.

I very much doubt the prophecy came to pass in Paul's time since every other event and condition associated with "For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many." did not come to pass yet. 

There have always been famines and plagues. Egypt comes to mind. That was a bad one. Others have been worse, some not as bad. If we hold the interpretation of Matt 24 as millennia what's to stop a retroactive approach? 

"For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places."

The above has been going on since before Abraham walked the earth and well before Jesus prophesied of it in the 1st century.

There must be a difference so we can know the time. 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

As we say of hindsight, it is 20/20, and some 2000 years of hindsight has confirmed to my satisfaction that what Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g. Matt. 24:5-11) has fit every century since that time, if not every decade, if not every year. 

It's strange you don't find this to be a problem and rather it's a solution.  

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

The more one becomes aware of what all is happening in this world, the more it seems that what He said fits every day!  And consider very carefully:  Things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  Atheists and agnostics should take note.  I would not want to venture what even the next week will hold!  I have not heard of one psychic that foresaw what the last year has held.  Who alive can say what things will be 10 years from now, much less 1000 years...times 2?  But, Jesus Christ said what it was going to be!  And, what He said further, in Matthew 24:12---we are there.  And, what He said further, in verse 14a---we are there.  Again, I am seeing evidence enough.  We know that Satan is in the hoodwinking business.  With a hoodwink on, one cannot see what is right in front of his or her face.  I hope you will consider further Diaste.  I think Satan has effectively hoodwinked God's children for much too long.  The horsemen have been riding all this time---and they will be riding today.  History is absolutely littered with their hoofprints.  At times, it might be one riding hard and the others taking it easy.  At other times, it may be two.  At other times, all four.  Just enough to do their business, but not enough to blow their cover.  But, when their dust settles, you can see their trails...

Great story but leaves no room for definitive onset or completion. It really just promotes wide open interpretation.  Why stop there? The posse is loose, Matt 24:4-15 is fulfilled, why not the return of Jesus? The gathering? In fact maybe it all happened already. 

But it didn't. We have to deal with the terminal generation.

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

This isn't a 1st century, or any other century, generation. If all these things didn't come to pass in the sight of a single generation then none came to pass.

We are still waiting for it to begin.

[Charlie744]

On 4/9/2020 at 8:51 AM, Revelation Man said:

Come and see is more in line with a vision being displayed, rather than a scroll being read. John saw visions. The key here is the 144,000 {ALL Jews who repent} being protected for 1260 days, and that happens in Rev. 7, just before the 7th Seal is opened. We know to start with that the Seals are not actionable as per being linear because the first Four Horses are all about the Anti-Christs ACTIONS over a 42 month period of time and the 5th Seal is also about the Anti-Christs 42 month period of rule in which he Martyrs the Saints {REMNANT Church}.

Jesus can open the Seals and the SHOW what it about to befall mankind, he has that power, all of Rev. 4-19 is basically done in that form is it not ? Speaking about the future 70th week. The Seals are not linear, I understood that when I understood the first 5 Seals were all about the Anti-Christs 42 month reign of terror on earth. Then when I understood the 144,000 is METAPHORIC for ALL Israel, I then understood that they must be SEALED/Protected for 1260 days before the Trumpet Judgments start and the Angel basically gives that to us, if we HEAR his words. He says HOLD BACK the winds from the four corners, meaning God's ACTIONS on the earth or God's Judgments, and we know this is what it means because he says HURT NOT the Earth, Sea nor Trees until the 144,000 {Repented Jews who are Fleeing Judea} are SEALED/Protected {in Petra/Bozrah} and then once they are protected the 7th Seal is opened, then the Judgments start. NOTICE: The Trumpets burn the Grasses and Tress, AND hurt the Sea and Earth !! 

 

You are confused via the timing of the 70th week sir. WAY OFF. When you understand the 1260 is they KEY to all Eschatology, then you will understand what happens during the 70th week as per the order thereof.
 

Its all centered on the 1260.......go study it brother. 
 

RM, I just stumbled on this topic and will continue to read on.... but your comment was quick to catch my eye where you asy, "its all centered on the 1260". Without taking this over and redirecting this to a Daniel discussion, would you please tell me:

1) there is a 1260 in Daniel.... is this the same time period as mentioned in Revelation. I have NOT studied Revelation and wanted to know if the mention of this time in Daniel refers to Revelation or it has its own meaning within Daniel?

Thanks so much, Charlie