The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[Revelation Man]

On 3/6/2021 at 2:03 AM, Charlie744 said:

ALWAYS nice to read your responses! And I will get to Revelation but I am still working on Daniel. I hope to be able to discuss Revelation with you when the time comes... God willing!

 I do understand there is written 1,260 days (no conversion) in Revelation but I don’t think it equals this phrase “time, times and 1/2”. In Daniel it is telling us an important act this “little horn” WILL perform or employ against God. It is one of the characteristics of this “little horn” that will come out of the “beast or the 4th kingdom”. Although we see chapter 11 quite differently, this same act (taking ownership of His 10 commandments) are further explained / revealed in more detail in chapter 11. The “theme” in Daniel of the “restoration” of the Jews, the city, the land, the coming Messiah and this “little horn” continues into and through 11. There is no breakage in the “restorical theme” of Daniel. An “historical” approach or interpretation of 11, and including 7:25 (and others in 8,9 & 10), reveals a break in ANY consistent theme in the last 5 or 6 chapters.. 

But that is just my opinion and interpretations...

Thanks again for your comments and I am sure we will discuss so much more, Charlie 

It comes from the Little Horn, not the Fourth Beast, the 10 Horns ARISE out of the Fourth Beast, they are not the Fourth Beast. Thy are a DIVIDED old Fourth Beasts Territory, but the Fourth Beast is no more, nothing can bring them back together for nigh 2000 years, not even the SEED of Men (Royal Marriage). 

Then the Little Horn COMES UP (is born) amongst the 10 (in a divided Europe) and the E.U. finally comes back together from the 1950s to the 1990s, and start looking like ONE NATION in the 90s until now. The Little Horn will be a 5th Beast, this is PROVABLE by reading Daniel 7:11. The Beast's BODY is DESTROYED and he is CAST INTO hellfire. The Fourth Beast's body can't be destroyed, nor can a Nation be cast into hell. Rev. 19:20 also says the Beast AND False Prophet will be cast into hell. The Little Horn is not a part of the Fourth Best, HE HIMSELF ALONE is the 5th Beast or 7th Head of 7 Heads. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND the coming Anti-Christ.

The STATUE like the BEASTS are all about Israel being DOMINATED by Gentile Nations, and there was no Israel in God's eyes for 2000 years. God is boss. We can only see things the way God says they are. 

Egypt BOSSES or Dominates Israel and the Mediterranean.

Assyria totes off the Northern Kingdoms and has Dominion in the Mediterranean.

Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome Dominate Israel and the Region.

...........THERE IS NO ISRAEL TO BEAST OVER FROM 70 AD UNTIL 1948 ..........

Thus the Statue is about Israel being BEASTED OVER ONLY, it totally skips the Church Age Period, its about ONLY Israel !! It is what God sees, not us, that matters.

The Anti-Christ Conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 5th Beast or 7th Head.

FORGET THE CURCH AGE, This is only about Israel as a Nation. 

There is not a gap, there was no Israel for 2000 years, God said so, He said they wee DEAD, not me. Read the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy. We have to LISTEN to that small still voice.  Our thinking can't override God's thinking. We can't say there can't be a gap, there can be anything God says, BUT.......It isn't a gap anyway, its about a FICTITOUS FIGURATIVE STATUE, that stands in for all the Gentile Kingdoms that DOMINATE OVER Israel. No Israel, NO STATUE.

EXAMPLE: If I am giving you a 100 year period of a great Ice Cream Factory, where God shows us a BOWL stacked on top of another bowl and so on and God only has 9 bowls there representing all of the years of this Ice Cream Factories excellence from 1901 to the year 2000 (100 years). BUT..........we learn that from 1941-1950 (10 years) this factory was closed down, does the 9 bowls CLEARLY AND FAIRLY REPRESENT the Factories 90 years in service, seeing as they were shuttered for 10 years or is the depiction ALL WRONG?  I say the 9 bowls shows the Factory was open for 90 years, just like the Four Beasts are Depicted by the Four Metals and the 5th Beast is depicted by the Iron and Clay, or better yet by the name the Little Horn in Daniel 7. It just so happens to be 2000 years later, but SO WHAT, the Beast of DOMINION over Israel ran from Babylon (in Daniel) to Rome, then there was NO ISRAEL, thus they could not be DOMINATED by any Beast. Now that Israel is REBORN, they can of course be Conquered again. People who say there cant be a GAP are just not in the know. There was NO Israel for 2000 some odd years, God says that, and God is no Liar. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

It comes from the Little Horn, not the Fourth Beast, the 10 Horns ARISE out of the Fourth Beast, they are not the Fourth Beast. Thy are a DIVIDED old Fourth Beasts Territory, but the Fourth Beast is no more, nothing can bring them back together for nigh 2000 years, not even the SEED of Men (Royal Marriage). 

Then the Little Horn COME UP (is born) amongst the 10 (in a divided Europe) and the E.U. finally comes back together from the 50s to the 90s, and start looking like ONE NATION in the 90s until now. The Little Horn will be a 5th Beast, this is PROVABLE by reading Daniel 7:11. The Beast's BODY is DESTROYED and he is CAST INTO hellfire. The Fourth Beast's body can't be destroyed, nor can a Nation be cast into hell. Rev. 19:20 also says the Beast AND False Prophet will be cast into hell. The Little Horn is nor a part of the Fourth Best, HE HIMSELF ALONE is the 5th Beast or 7th Head of 7 Heads. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome AND the coming Anti-Christ.

The STATUE like the BEASTS are all about Israel being DOMINATED by Gentile Nations, and there was no Israel in God's eyes for 2000 years. God is boss. We can only see things the ay God says they are. 

Egypt BOSSES or Dominates Israel and the Mediterranean.

Assyria totes off the Northern Kingdoms and has Dominion in the Mediterranean.

Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome Dominate Israel and the Region.

...........THERE IS NO ISRAAEL RTO BEAST OVER FROM 70 AS UNTIL 1948 ..........

This the Statue is about Israel being BEASTED OVER ONLY, it totally skips the Church Age Period, it about ONLY Israel !! It is what God sees, not us, that matters.

Anti-Christ Conquers Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 5th Beast or 7th Head.

FORGET THE CURCH AGE, This is only about Israel as a Nation. 

There is not gap, there was no Israel for 2000 years, God said so, He said they wee DEAD, not me. Read the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy. We have to LISTEN to that small still voice.  Our thinking can't override God's thinking. We can't say tere can;t be a gap, there can be anything God says, BUT.......It isn't a gap anyway, its about a FICTITOUS FIGURATIVE STATUE, that stand in for all the Gentile Kingdoms that DOMINATE OVER Israel. 

EXAMPLE: If I am giving you a 100 year period of a great Ice Cream Factory, where God shows us a BOWL stacked on top of another bowl and so on and God only has 9 bowls there representing all of the years of this Ice Cream Factories excellence from 1901 to the year 2000 (100 years). BUT..........we learn that from 19241-1950 (10 years) this factory was closed down, does the 9 bowls CLEARLY AND FAIRLY REPRESENT the Factories 90 years in service, seeing as they were shuttered for 10 years or is the depiction ALL WRONG?  I say the 9 bowls shows the Factory was open for 90 years, just lie the Four Beasts are Depicted by the Four Metals and the 5th Beast is depicted by the Iron and Clay, or better yet by the name the Little Horn in Daniel 7. It just so happens to be 2000 years later, but SO WHAT, the Beast of DOMINION over Israel ran from Babylon (in Daniel) to Rome, the there as NO ISRAEL, thus they could not be DOMINATED by any Beast. Now that Israel is REBORN, they can of course be Conquered again. People who say there cant be a GAP are just not in the know. There was NO Israel for 2000 some odd years, God says that, and God is no Liar. 

It is more than apparent I have not expressed my interpretations properly as some of your comments are no different than mine .....

I agree there are 4 kingdoms yet I believe you count 5.... this is in contradiction to Daniel 2 where Daniel is told of the meaning of Nebs. vision and there are only 4 kingdoms. 

Next, the 4th kingdom is identified as the "beast" and this will be the final kingdom on earth. It will BEGIN as pagan Rome. Although the rulers / powers / governments who come to power of the day will obviously change many, many times over the following 2,000 years, they still represent this last or 4th kingdom of mankind (this 4th kingdom has been known as the Muslims, the Crusaders, the Germans, on and on throughout the years, but they all had the exact same characteristics found in the original "beast" - pagan Rome..... just their names changed that is all.

But the "little horn" is different. He does come out from pagan Rome and he also must continue until the end times. For me, this must be the papacy, and he will think to change times and laws, speak against God, think he is god on earth, he can forgive sins..... on and on (but this / he is not the beast). The "beast" is secular man and his need for conquest, power, control while the "little horn" is desiring the same through the "religious or spiritual" side. 

The four kingdoms represent the "kingdoms of man" not Israel, not pagan Rome, not Germany or Turkey or the US..... it represents a broader view of man's nature to conquer, murder, kill and control in whatever country, ethnicity, etc.

So the 4th beast will continue in some form / language / culture / location on the earth depending who is on top at the end of times but it is secular.

The "little horn" must also continue and corrupt God's Word until the second coming but in a spiritual conquest.

The entire book of Daniel shows us the very last attempt for the Jews, as a people, as a result of their constantly disobeying God and turning to idolatry. Daniel was written to document their punishment to Babylon, their trials and tribulations while in Babylon (and there are so many messages from God to be found for their benefit as well as ourselves), then their complete restoration (city, land, building and the most important the coming Messiah). This was to be their final chance but of course they rejected their Messiah and once again failed. This was it.... they would no longer be given another chance and now their punishment would indeed be final in every way by 70 AD. 

Therefore, Israel has been replaced as His chosen people to introduce and spread the news of the ONE True God of ALL.... they failed not only to spread this to the pagans / gentiles but they also failed miserably to keep His Laws, obey Him and keep from any idolatry.  Now, Jesus Himself and His Holy Spirit would be chosen to spread the Good News. 

All of this is revealed in chapters 2, 7, 8 & 9. Then in 11 we find the aftermath of the crucifixion of the Messiah and those events and actors will be come to power over the next 2,000 years in both a secular and spiritual manner. God is of course interested in the spiritual side of things which means the primary actor is this "little horn" who will corrupt His Word and teach those things that are contrary to His Plan of Salvation for all of us. 

Almost all of today's accepted interpretations focus entirely on the secular events and actors that seem to fit or are made to fit Daniel's verses (later chapters), and they attempt to predict if Turkey, or Syria, or the Muslims or Egypt,etc., might be these actors in Revelation and thus matched BACK to those verses in Daniel that are just too difficult to interpret on their own.....

This is the mistake..... my opinion. Daniel should and does speak for itself and reveals a message about the coming Messiah not AE, Ptolemy, Seleucus, Berenice, Cleopatra, etc., and once this is revealed it will show that so much of Daniel was indeed fulfilled / completed and only the last chapter 12 and the last 1/4 of 11 are true end time prophecies. 

 You can not take the pieces of the 2,000 piece puzzle of Revelation and try to fit them into the missing places in the Book of Daniel. And you can not take those pieces in Daniel where we failed to find their proper place in Daniel and take them to the Revelation puzzle and fit them in...... then BOTH puzzles are corrupted and that is exactly what we have..... one must complete the Daniel puzzle - all of its 2,000 pieces BEFORE we see the picture on the outside of the puzzle box. Then we can use this story / this image to help us fit those pieces in Revelation that still confuse us.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

PS. It is always good to learn about your interpretations and clearly the amount of time and consideration you must have put into this work.

 

[not an echo]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:26 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/29/2020 at 10:42 PM, not an echo said:

Christ refers to His appearance after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-16) as "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Realize that the next time Jesus is seen by anyone, He will be seen "with power and great glory"!  The tribulation Christ speaks of in Matthew 24:29 is not Daniel's 70th Week, but the tribulation effected by the horsemen of the first four seals throughout the course of post-apostolic history until now.  Of course, Satan has always been active, both in the world and in the lives of individuals.  But since the days of the apostles, his activity in the world can be seen through the things that have taken place that Jesus warned of in the opening section of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11).  As I see it, the four horsemen have left quite a trail and they are even now kicking up dust all over the world.  I can almost envision Satan negotiating with Almighty God for the liberties that he has been granted to ply his craft during the Church Age.  These spiritual realm liberties are exercised by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Realize that Satan would not have liberty to squirm, unless given such liberty by Almighty God.

Daniel's 70th Week will be brought to an abrupt close with Christ's Second Coming as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon. 

Two second comings? One at the 6th seal which as you state must be before the 70th week begins and before the DOTL; then another second coming at the Valley of Decision? 

Hey Diaste,

For me, a better understanding is arrived at when stated thus:  Christ's Second Advent will be preceded by the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Said another way, Christ's Second Advent will be preceded by a "sign" appearance.  As I have come to see things, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Matthew's account), Christ's "Sign" Appearance is shown in 24:30, and all of verses 29-51 relate to the day of this event, every single verse.  Moreover, the rapture will take place at this time (vss. 31, 36-44).  Concerning His Second Advent, this is shown in verses 26-28, which correspond to the end of Daniel's 70th Week, to which verses 15-28 relate.

For those less familiar with how I understand things, I see Matthew 24:4-28 as Jesus' outlining of what history would hold until the time of His Second Advent.  Clarified further, I see verses 5-14 as pertaining to what has been the era of the New Testament Church.  I see verses 15-28 as pertaining to Daniel's 70th Week and Christ's Second Advent.  Very important is this:  Verses 29-51 relate to the event of Christ's Sign Appearance, the imminent event that might be said to INTERSECT verses 14 and 15.  This event will mark the end of the era of the Church and be a precursor of Daniel's 70th Week, as well as Christ's Second Advent.  Note the illustration below:

In harmony with the above, in The Revelation, Christ's Sign Appearance is shown with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17, esp. vss. 15-16).  The account of Daniel's 70th Week begins in Revelation 11:1 (cp. II Thess. 2:3-4 with Matt. 24:15).  His Second Advent is shown in Revelation 19:11-21.  Consider how this placement of the prophetic puzzle pieces fits with all the other pieces.

All of my posts are part of a A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[not an echo]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:26 AM, Diaste said:

And another thing; wars, pestilence, plague, earthquakes, etc., were not happening before the Apostles? Or before the Apostles it wasn't Satan doing it? And there were no false messiahs before the 1st century? No one ever came in the name of the Most High and deceived people before Jesus choose the 12? 

Yes, and there is the sense in which it could be said that Jesus was conveying that it was going to be the "same old, same old," except now in the context of the Christian experience.  With Satan, it has always been the same old, same old.

As I have considered your position Diaste, when it becomes what you are thinking that it will be (e.g., Matt. 24:5-11/Rev. 6:1-8), it will still be the same old, same old.  If I am understanding you correctly, you are just looking for it to be at some higher degree than it is.  Hey, and everything is going to be at a higher degree than it is, once the 6th Seal is opened!  But, the 6th Seal and what happens beyond its opening is not the first five seals and what Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:5-11.

You know, the disciples just never did get it---till they did.  It seems they never got it, except in retrospect!  I mean, concerning Jesus crucifixion or resurrection or anything.  And, I'm thinking that on the Day of Pentecost, it would have been easy for them to think, "Hey, boys, this thing is gonna go!"  Or, "Hey, there's gonna be a worldwide revival that ain't never gonna end---take that Satan!!  And, what's more, we're gonna be on the cutting edge of it all!!!"  I know that if I had been in the mix, I would have had high aspirations.  And rightly so.  I mean, "about three thousand souls" (Acts 2:41) got saved that day.  And these were the ones that were crying for Christ's crucifixion (Acts 2:36).  I hadn't ever seen three get saved that I didn't get high aspirations!  But, they didn't need to forget the balance in the equation (Satan's same old, same old), and neither do we.  Things are just going to be like this, till Jesus comes to take us out of this world, after which there will commence a systematic end to Satan's same old, same old.

As I see it, the first four seals represent the four broad categories of liberties that Satan was granted long ago to ply his craft---during the era of the Church.  He would have zero liberties if Almighty God did not grant him some.  He would not have the liberty to squirm if God did not grant him that liberty.  And just think, Jesus Christ was given the charge of opening the seals.  He is Lord!

I hope you (and all) will read the first three verses of The Revelation again.  Don't allow something to be pried out of the Greek that will counter the most natural meaning of its introduction.  Of the things Daniel was shown, he was told to "shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4).  Conversely, of the things John was shown, he was given this instruction in Revelation 22:

 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:  for the time is at hand.

The time was "at hand" for what?  For the things to begin, which were to be "hereafter" (Rev. 4:1).  As I see things, this is to be understood from John's perspective of time (and the seven churches, to which the care of The Revelation was given).  And, the things did begin, and have have progressed through at least the 4th Seal. (I've got to go/just learned that my brother-in-law passed.  Haven't been able to proof read...)

(Have been able to come back and proof read some.  Of course, it is a difficult time for all, especially my wife's sister.  Her husband was just 57, perfect health, a complete surprise.  He had been working in the basement and came up to take a rest on the couch.  He passed there.  He was saved, and much beloved by us all.  We know he is in Heaven.)  

Edited March 7, 2021 by not an echo

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

It is more than apparent I have not expressed my interpretations properly as some of your comments are no different than mine .....

I agree there are 4 kingdoms yet I believe you count 5.... this is in contradiction to Daniel 2 where Daniel is told of the meaning of Nebs. vision and there are only 4 kingdoms. 

Wrong sir, Nebs Dream speaks of Iron and Clay, that is not the Roman Iron portion of the Statue, and we are told (WHY IGNORE IT? Its so easy to decipher) in Dan. 7:11 that the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and then he is cast into hellfire. So, lets pretend the Anti-Christ/Little Horn isn't a 5th Beast even though the very words in the book of Daniel says he is.  God gave us parables so the world could not understand what we can understand. as led by the holy spirit. HOW? By reading the bible, and putting the whole puzzle together. If God calls the Little Horn's BODY a BEAST then the Little Born is a BEAST. The whole Rev. 17 chapter is designed to explain unto us that the 7th Mountain is a MAN. 

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Next, the 4th kingdom is identified as the "beast" and this will be the final kingdom on earth. It will BEGIN as pagan Rome. Although the rulers / powers / governments who come to power of the day will obviously change many, many times over the following 2,000 years, they still represent this last or 4th kingdom of mankind (this 4th kingdom has been known as the Muslims, the Crusaders, the Germans, on and on throughout the years, but they all had the exact same characteristics found in the original "beast" - pagan Rome..... just their names changed that is all.

The Fourth Beast goes away, it suffers the Mortal Wound, the 5th Beast which comes out of the Fourth Beasts Head is the final Beast. Its not the same Beast. The Fourth Beast died when Israel was NO MORE. You can not BEAST over a Nation that does not exist. I really cant phantom why you guys can't understand that simple math my friend. 

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

But the "little horn" is different. He does come out from pagan Rome and he also must continue until the end times. For me, this must be the papacy, and he will think to change times and laws, speak against God, think he is god on earth, he can forgive sins..... on and on (but this / he is not the beast). The "beast" is secular man and his need for conquest, power, control while the "little horn" is desiring the same through the "religious or spiritual" side. 

 

Oh brother !! You going down that road? No wonder we are never going to agree on this, the RCC and the Pope have zero to do with End Time Prophecy. Neither does the Islamic Anti-Christ Joel Richardson speaks about, both are head-fakes by Satan. So, you are buying into what I discounted 30 years ago? There has been NO BEAST over Israel since 70 AD and the only Beast to come is ONE MAN who heads the E.U. Government, who will be THE BEAST but only when he Conquers Israel and THE MANY (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia). The Popes and the RCC don't conquer nations man. Go read Daniel 11, it tells you exactly what he conquers, it even states he CAN NOT Conquer Ammon, Edom and Moab (Central and Southern Jordan) because that is where the Jews Flee unto the Mountains. (The Petra and Bozrah area). 

The TIMES & LAWS is more akin to the culture, like Antiochus and Jason tried to do, the DEMANDED that the Greek Culture be adhered unto (they tried to Hellenize the Jews) leading to the Maccabean Revolt. Jas9n was a High Priest, the False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest. The Beast will be an E.U. President. We see the TIMES & LAWS being CHANGED NOW before our very eyes even in the USA, you guys are missing it, they are hell bent on makin all the rest of us ACCEPT their Transsexual agendas, their Homosexual agenda for Marriage, their Abortion agendas, their indoctrination of our kids and their WOKE AGENDAS. Its not about actual Laws per se, that is why TIME was added to the description, it means they want to change THE OLD WAYS........The Traditions of 1000's of years of marriage between one man and one woman, of men being men and women being women, now they DEMAND we don't use Sir, Him, Mrs. Ms. her etc. etc. This is all from Satan. Its not about actual LAWS via the Jewish Custom, in Antiochus' times it was sorta about that, but they also demanded the perversion of the culture, they wanted to be like unto the perverted Greeks.

You get lost in a TITLE..........We have lots of people on this earth wh0 are evil, who think they are greater than God etc. etc. But God DESCRIBES where the Anti-Chr9st has to be born, ...................... in Greece !! Did you miss that brother? He describes where he ATTACKS from also, the North west.

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The four kingdoms represent the "kingdoms of man" not Israel, not pagan Rome, not Germany or Turkey or the US..... it represents a broader view of man's nature to conquer, murder, kill and control in whatever country, ethnicity, etc.

 

The bible is all about Israel, the Beasts are about Gentile Kingdoms that have DOMINION over Israel. That is why England nor the Ottoman Empire are counted as BEASTS. There was NO ISRAEL AROUND. 

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

So the 4th beast will continue in some form / language / culture / location on the earth depending who is on top at the end of times but it is secular.

 

No it doesn't it received the Mortal Wound (Rev. 13). Its not my fault you haven't read Rev. 13, that is your fault. You can't understand the bible without reading it all brother. I would NEVER advise a DEEP STUDY on any one book until ALL of the bible is read. You are going about it all wrong, and its costing you.

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The "little horn" must also continue and corrupt God's Word until the second coming but in a spiritual conquest.

 

The Little Horn COMES UP (is born) amongst the 10 (Divided Europe) but then they RULE with him for 42 months.

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

The entire book of Daniel shows us the very last attempt for the Jews, as a people, as a result of their constantly disobeying God and turning to idolatry. Daniel was written to document their punishment to Babylon, their trials and tribulations while in Babylon (and there are so many messages from God to be found for their benefit as well as ourselves), then their complete restoration (city, land, building and the most important the coming Messiah). This was to be their final chance but of course they rejected their Messiah and once again failed. This was it.... they would no longer be given another chance and now their punishment would indeed be final in every way by 70 AD. 

 

Wrong once again, you seem to be believing in REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, try reading Zechariah 13:8=9, an Malachi 4:5-6. Israel REPENTS during the 70th week. We see that 1/3 of all the Jews are SAVED, or come to believe on their Messiah.

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

Therefore, Israel has been replaced as His chosen people to introduce and spread the news of the ONE True God of ALL.... they failed not only to spread this to the pagans / gentiles but they also failed miserably to keep His Laws, obey Him and keep from any idolatry.  Now, Jesus Himself and His Holy Spirit would be chosen to spread the Good News. 

 

WRONG, Galatians three ha been misinterpreted by people like you sir, it doesn't mean there is nether Jew nor Greek just as id doesn't mean there is neither MALE nor FEMALE, in a literal sense. It was Paul, chastising the Galatians for trying to SEVRE THE LAW like the Jews, thus he tells them, you do not have to be like the Jews to gain heaven, God doesn't care if you are Jew or Gentile, STOP trying to be Jews, in God's eyes there is neither Jew NOR Gentile, neither MALE nor FEMALE !! It looks like you guys would put 2 + 2 together, there are MALES and FEMALES s0 why would you not understand right off the bat his is nit about there not actually being Jews and Gentiles ? Its VERY CLEAR, read the chapter, its Paul getting on to the Galatians for keeping then Jewish Laws and Customs, or trying to WORK their way to Heaven instead of accepting their Salvation BY FAITH ALONE, go reread it, knowing what it is now, and tell me you can't see it as such !!

God calling us WITHOUT REPENTANCE, Paul says in Romans 11 that ALL Israel will be SAVED. He not fibbing brother. Not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation Repents.

God gave the mantle to the YOUNGER (Gentile Church) just like he gave Jacob the mantle. But God turns unto Israel again, right after the Rapture. That is a FACT.

22 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

All of this is revealed in chapters 2, 7, 8 & 9. Then in 11 we find the aftermath of the crucifixion of the Messiah and those events and actors will be come to power over the next 2,000 years in both a secular and spiritual manner. God is of course interested in the spiritual side of things which means the primary actor is this "little horn" who will corrupt His Word and teach those things that are contrary to His Plan of Salvation for all of us. 

Almost all of today's accepted interpretations focus entirely on the secular events and actors that seem to fit or are made to fit Daniel's verses (later chapters), and they attempt to predict if Turkey, or Syria, or the Muslims or Egypt,etc., might be these actors in Revelation and thus matched BACK to those verses in Daniel that are just too difficult to interpret on their own.....

This is the mistake..... my opinion. Daniel should and does speak for itself and reveals a message about the coming Messiah not AE, Ptolemy, Seleucus, Berenice, Cleopatra, etc., and once this is revealed it will show that so much of Daniel was indeed fulfilled / completed and only the last chapter 12 and the last 1/4 of 11 are true end time prophecies. 

 You can not take the pieces of the 2,000 piece puzzle of Revelation and try to fit them into the missing places in the Book of Daniel. And you can not take those pieces in Daniel where we failed to find their proper place in Daniel and take them to the Revelation puzzle and fit them in...... then BOTH puzzles are corrupted and that is exactly what we have..... one must complete the Daniel puzzle - all of its 2,000 pieces BEFORE we see the picture on the outside of the puzzle box. Then we can use this story / this image to help us fit those pieces in Revelation that still confuse us.

Just my thoughts, Charlie

PS. It is always good to learn about your interpretations and clearly the amount of time and consideration you must have put into this work.

You haven't read Revelation, so you can't know it brother.

Daniel and all the bible tell us that an Anti-Christ will be born in Greece, to Assyrian (Turks) via his bloodline, and come to power in the E.U. 

God Bless.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Wrong sir, Nebs Dream speaks of Iron and Clay, that is not the Roman Iron portion of the Statue, and we are told (WHY IGNORE IT? Its so easy to decipher) in Dan. 7:11 that the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and then he is cast into hellfire. So, lets pretend the Anti-Christ/Little Horn isn't a 5th Beast even though the very words in the book of Daniel says he is.  God gave us parables so the world could not understand what we can understand. as led by the holy spirit. HOW? By reading the bible, and putting the whole puzzle together. If God calls the Little Horn's BODY a BEAST then the Little Born is a BEAST. The whole Rev. 17 chapter is designed to explain unto us that the 7th Mountain is a MAN. 

The Fourth Beast goes away, it suffers the Mortal Wound, the 5th Beast which comes out of the Fourth Beasts Head is the final Beast. Its not the same Beast. The Fourth Beast died when Israel was NO MORE. You can not BEAST over a Nation that does not exist. I really cant phantom why you guys can't understand that simple math my friend. 

Oh brother !! You going down that road? No wonder we are never going to agree on this, the RCC and the Pope have zero to do with End Time Prophecy. Neither does the Islamic Anti-Christ Joel Richardson speaks about, both are head-fakes by Satan. So, you are buying into what I discounted 30 years ago? There has been NO BEAST over Israel since 70 AD and the only Beast to come is ONE MAN who heads the E.U. Government, who will be THE BEAST but only when he Conquers Israel and THE MANY (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Libya and Tunisia). The Popes and the RCC don't conquer nations man. Go read Daniel 11, it tells you exactly what he conquers, it even states he CAN NOT Conquer Ammon, Edom and Moab (Central and Southern Jordan) because that is where the Jews Flee unto the Mountains. (The Petra and Bozrah area). 

The TIMES & LAWS is more akin to the culture, like Antiochus and Jason tried to do, the DEMANDED that the Greek Culture be adhered unto (they tried to Hellenize the Jews) leading to the Maccabean Revolt. Jas9n was a High Priest, the False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest. The Beast will be an E.U. President. We see the TIMES & LAWS being CHANGED NOW before our very eyes even in the USA, you guys are missing it, they are hell bent on makin all the rest of us ACCEPT their Transsexual agendas, their Homosexual agenda for Marriage, their Abortion agendas, their indoctrination of our kids and their WOKE AGENDAS. Its not about actual Laws per se, that is why TIME was added to the description, it means they want to change THE OLD WAYS........The Traditions of 1000's of years of marriage between one man and one woman, of men being men and women being women, now they DEMAND we don't use Sir, Him, Mrs. Ms. her etc. etc. This is all from Satan. Its not about actual LAWS via the Jewish Custom, in Antiochus' times it was sorta about that, but they also demanded the perversion of the culture, they wanted to be like unto the perverted Greeks.

You get lost in a TITLE..........We have lots of people on this earth wh0 are evil, who think they are greater than God etc. etc. But God DESCRIBES where the Anti-Chr9st has to be born, ...................... in Greece !! Did you miss that brother? He describes where he ATTACKS from also, the North west.

The bible is all about Israel, the Beasts are about Gentile Kingdoms that have DOMINION over Israel. That is why England nor the Ottoman Empire are counted as BEASTS. There was NO ISRAEL AROUND. 

No it doesn't it received the Mortal Wound (Rev. 13). Its not my fault you haven't read Rev. 13, that is your fault. You can't understand the bible without reading it all brother. I would NEVER advise a DEEP STUDY on any one book until ALL of the bible is read. You are going about it all wrong, and its costing you.

The Little Horn COMES UP (is born) amongst the 10 (Divided Europe) but then they RULE with him for 42 months.

Wrong once again, you seem to be believing in REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, try reading Zechariah 13:8=9, an Malachi 4:5-6. Israel REPENTS during the 70th week. We see that 1/3 of all the Jews are SAVED, or come to believe on their Messiah.

WRONG, Galatians three ha been misinterpreted by people like you sir, it doesn't mean there is nether Jew nor Greek just as id doesn't mean there is neither MALE nor FEMALE, in a literal sense. It was Paul, chastising the Galatians for trying to SEVRE THE LAW like the Jews, thus he tells them, you do not have to be like the Jews to gain heaven, God doesn't care if you are Jew or Gentile, STOP trying to be Jews, in God's eyes there is neither Jew NOR Gentile, neither MALE nor FEMALE !! It looks like you guys would put 2 + 2 together, there are MALES and FEMALES s0 why would you not understand right off the bat his is nit about there not actually being Jews and Gentiles ? Its VERY CLEAR, read the chapter, its Paul getting on to the Galatians for keeping then Jewish Laws and Customs, or trying to WORK their way to Heaven instead of accepting their Salvation BY FAITH ALONE, go reread it, knowing what it is now, and tell me you can't see it as such !!

God calling us WITHOUT REPENTANCE, Paul says in Romans 11 that ALL Israel will be SAVED. He not fibbing brother. Not every Jew, but Israel as a Nation Repents.

God gave the mantle to the YOUNGER (Gentile Church) just like he gave Jacob the mantle. But God turns unto Israel again, right after the Rapture. That is a FACT.

You haven't read Revelation, so you can't know it brother.

Daniel and all the bible tell us that an Anti-Christ will be born in Greece, to Assyrian (Turks) via his bloodline, and come to power in the E.U. 

God Bless.

RM, thanks for your comments! I am going to take a little time here ... you have given a long response.

Get back to you ... soon... we’ll maybe not soon, but sooner than the second coming.... maybe...

Charlie

[Charlie744]

RM, please note the following:

 

  On 3/6/2021 at 3:56 AM, Charlie744 said:

It is more than apparent I have not expressed my interpretations properly as some of your comments are no different than mine.....

I agree there are 4 kingdoms yet I believe you count 5.... This is in contradiction to Daniel 2 where Daniel is told of the meaning of Nebs. Vision and there are only 4 kingdoms. 

Wrong sir, Nebs Dream speaks of Iron and Clay, that is not the Roman Iron portion of the Statue, and we are told (WHY IGNORE IT? It’s so easy to decipher) in Dan. 7:11 that the Beasts BODY is DESTROYED and then he is cast into hellfire. So, let’s pretend the Anti-Christ/Little Horn isn't a 5th Beast even though the very words in the book of Daniel say he is.  God gave us parables so the world could not understand what we can understand as led by the Holy Spirit. HOW? By reading the bible and putting the whole puzzle together. If God calls the Little Horn's BODY a BEAST then the Little Born is a BEAST. The whole Rev. 17 chapter is designed to explain unto us that the 7th Mountain is a MAN. 

 

RM, here is my response to the nine comments you have made and where we can address EACH SEPARATELY  before we move to the next....

Daniel’s Chapter 2

³⁹ After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. ⁴⁰ Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. ⁴¹ Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. ⁴² As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. ⁴³ And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

Daniel’s Dream of Four Beasts – Chapter 7

¹ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.

² Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. ³ Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

⁴ “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.

⁵ “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

⁶ “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

⁷ “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

⁸ “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully

This seems clear to me: 4 kingdoms coming in consecutive order after conquering the previous one, and then “a little horn will come out of the 4^th kingdom (beast).

BEFORE you move on to Revelation and bring those verses in to interpret Daniel, you should stay within Daniel to interpret Daniel. RM, a couple of weeks ago I asked if you would like to “walk” through Daniel beginning with chapter 2 and compare / discuss each other’s interpretations…… after a very short attempt you decided not to continue this approach…… no problem, but it appears to me that you are comfortable with using Revelation to interpret Daniel and I wanted to simply use his verses to interpret his message. Your response above to my comment is not found within Daniel….. I have pasted the verses from Daniel that speak of the 4 kingdoms.

So, would you please focus on the issue #1 above (your comment) re: the 4 or 5 kingdoms, the little horn, etc.?  Thanks, Charlie

 

[Charlie744]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:44 PM, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste,

For me, a better understanding is arrived at when stated thus:  Christ's Second Coming will be preceded by the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Said another way, Christ's Second Coming will be preceded by a "sign" appearance.  As I have come to see things, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Matthew's account), Christ's "Sign" Appearance is shown in 24:30, and all of verses 29-51 relate to the day of this event, every single verse.  Moreover, the rapture will take place at this time (vss. 31, 36-44).  Concerning His Second Coming, this is shown in verses 26-28, which correspond to the end of Daniel's 70th Week, to which verses 15-28 relate.

For those less familiar with how I understand things, I see Matthew 24:4-28 as Jesus' outlining of what history would hold until the time of His Second Coming.  Clarified further, I see verses 5-14 as pertaining to what has been the era of the New Testament Church.  I see verses 15-28 as pertaining to Daniel's 70th Week and Christ's Second Coming.  Very important is this:  Verses 29-51 relate to the event of Christ's Sign Appearance, the imminent event that might be said to INTERSECT verses 14 and 15.  This event will mark the end of the era of the Church and be a precursor of Daniel's 70th Week, as well as Christ's Second Coming.  Note the illustration below: 

                   

In harmony with the above, in The Revelation, Christ's Sign Appearance is shown with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17, esp. vss. 15-16).  The account of Daniel's 70th Week begins in 11:1 (cp. II Thess. 2:3-4 with Matt. 24:15).  His Second Coming is shown in Revelation 19:11-21.  Consider how this placement of the prophetic puzzle pieces fits with all the other pieces...

not an echo, I believe you are one of a very few that have departed from the "accepted interpretation" that Daniel's 70th week is STILL TO COME. However, we seem to have a slight difference of opinion and it certainly can be discussed here if you are willing.

Above you say the last week started in v. 11:1. I think I see the last week is being discussed or revealed by Daniel after 11:4 (the first 4 verses in 11 merely recap or summarize the first 3 kingdoms of Daniel's chapter 2 metal man image and it also mentions that Alexander's empire was disbursed among his 4 generals... (and these are and never would be "kingdoms"). Consequently, for me, 11:5 begins the revealing of the 4th kingdom and all the actors and events that will take place with the coming Messiah.

I would welcome your comments and thoughts to the above opinion and also why you believe 11:1 is your start of the 4th kingdom... thanks so much, Charlie

On 3/6/2021 at 1:44 PM, not an echo said:

All of my posts are part of a A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

[Revelation Man]

20 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

This seems clear to me: 4 kingdoms coming in consecutive order after conquering the previous one, and then “a little horn will come out of the 4^th kingdom (beast).

BEFORE you move on to Revelation and bring those verses in to interpret Daniel, you should stay within Daniel to interpret Daniel. RM, a couple of weeks ago I asked if you would like to “walk” through Daniel beginning with chapter 2 and compare / discuss each other’s interpretations…… after a very short attempt you decided not to continue this approach…… no problem, but it appears to me that you are comfortable with using Revelation to interpret Daniel and I wanted to simply use his verses to interpret his message. Your response above to my comment is not found within Daniel….. I have pasted the verses from Daniel that speak of the 4 kingdoms.

So, would you please focus on the issue #1 above (your comment) re: the 4 or 5 kingdoms, the little horn, etc.?  Thanks, Charlie

This is in error, I don't have to stay within Daniel to interpret Daniel, this is actually against what God asks us to do via the HERE A LITTLE THERE A LITTLE scripture, but I can AND HAVE interpreted Daniel for you already and showed you that there are 5 Beasts in Daniel. One is the Little Horn. Why is it set up this way? BECAUSE if Israel had repented, 70 AD would have brought in the Kingdom, do you understand that? There would have been no Church Age. Bu they never repented, thus there is 7 years of penance left for Israel, thus God deemed them as DEAD MEN'S BONES and called upon the Gentile Church to take the Gospel unto the whole world. 

Then, during the END TIMES (70th week just after the Rapture) the same Fourth Beat Region arises, but this time the kingdom is never passed onto another man, hence the Little Horn himself is THE BEAST, the Last Beast will have the EXACT SME TERRITORY as the old fourth beast, but it will not be the SAME BEAST, you don't have a continuance of a beast for 2000 years, did Rome DOMINATE the Mediterranean Sea Region for 2000 years? Of course not, Rome became a WEAK NOTHING, and trying to pass that rule off to the Papacy is just not even sensical in the least bit brother. The Beast went away, there was NO ISRAEL, what is it about that you don't get? You just think you can MAKE IT the Papacy by repeating it over and over, but its not factual brother, all of the Beasts were Gentile Kingdoms. I have shown you that the Little Horn beast will be DIFFERENT from THE FIRST (Rome) not Babylon, because verse 3 stated they were ALL DIFFERENT from each other, so verse 24 is saying HE will be different from THE FIRST (Rome), not Babylon.

Dan. 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms(Verse 3 says they were ALL DIFFERENT so this is par for the course), and shall devour the whole earth(The SAME thing was said about Babylon, it meas the WHILE EARTH being spoken of, unless you think Nebuchadnezzar also conquered the WHOLE EARTH), and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns(Europe Reconciled) out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them(Anti-Christ); and he(Anti-Christ) shall be diverse from the first (Rome), and he shall subdue three kings.

{{{{{{{The ABOVE is where you guys make your biggest mistake, it PLAINLY SHOWS 2 Beasts, HE................will be DIFFERENT............from the First. (2 Beasts, Rome AND the coming Anti-Christ}}}}}}}

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

HIS DOMINION means he is the DOMINATING BEAST. 

Rev. 17 says there was 7 Mountains (Kingdoms) 5 Have fallen and ONE IS (Rome at Johns time) and ONE IS YET TO COME (Anti-Christ). 

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece have all FALLEN...........Rome WAS a Beast at John's time, but eventually fell. Now we are waiting on the coming Anti-Christ.

Is the reason you don't want to discuss Revelation because you cant defend its very powerful understandings ? Because being honest, I have never met a Christian who hasn't read the book of Revelation, I do not get that at all. 

God Bless

[Charlie744]

14 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

This is in error, I don't have to stay within Daniel to interpret Daniel, this is actually against what God asks us to do via the HERE A LITTLE THERE A LITTLE scripture, but I can AND HAVE interpreted Daniel for you already and showed you that there are 5 Beasts in Daniel. One is the Little Horn. Why is it set up this way? BECAUSE if Israel had repented, 70 AD would have brought in the Kingdom, do you understand that? There would have been no Church Age. Bu they never repented, thus there is 7 years of penance left for Israel, thus God deemed them as DEAD MEN'S BONES and called upon the Gentile Church to take the Gospel unto the whole world. 

Then, during the END TIMES (70th week just after the Rapture) the same Fourth Beat Region arises, but this time the kingdom is never passed onto another man, hence the Little Horn himself is THE BEAST, the Last Beast will have the EXACT SME TERRITORY as the old fourth beast, but it will not be the SAME BEAST, you don't have a continuance of a beast for 2000 years, did Rome DOMINATE the Mediterranean Sea Region for 2000 years? Of course not, Rome became a WEAK NOTHING, and trying to pass that rule off to the Papacy is just not even sensical in the least bit brother. The Beast went away, there was NO ISRAEL, what is it about that you don't get? You just think you can MAKE IT the Papacy by repeating it over and over, but its not factual brother, all of the Beasts were Gentile Kingdoms. I have shown you that the Little Horn beast will be DIFFERENT from THE FIRST (Rome) not Babylon, because verse 3 stated they were ALL DIFFERENT from each other, so verse 24 is saying HE will be different from THE FIRST (Rome), not Babylon.

Dan. 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms(Verse 3 says they were ALL DIFFERENT so this is par for the course), and shall devour the whole earth(The SAME thing was said about Babylon, it meas the WHILE EARTH being spoken of, unless you think Nebuchadnezzar also conquered the WHOLE EARTH), and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns(Europe Reconciled) out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them(Anti-Christ); and he(Anti-Christ) shall be diverse from the first (Rome), and he shall subdue three kings.

{{{{{{{The ABOVE is where you guys make your biggest mistake, it PLAINLY SHOWS 2 Beasts, HE................will be DIFFERENT............from the First. (2 Beasts, Rome AND the coming Anti-Christ}}}}}}}

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

HIS DOMINION means he is the DOMINATING BEAST. 

Rev. 17 says there was 7 Mountains (Kingdoms) 5 Have fallen and ONE IS (Rome at Johns time) and ONE IS YET TO COME (Anti-Christ). 

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece have all FALLEN...........Rome WAS a Beast at John's time, but eventually fell. Now we are waiting on the coming Anti-Christ.

Is the reason you don't want to discuss Revelation because you cant defend its very powerful understandings ? Because being honest, I have never met a Christian who hasn't read the book of Revelation, I do not get that at all. 

God Bless

RM, once again, thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts.

It is clear we do not interpret Daniel 2 & 7 the same. Daniel mentions 4 kingdoms and the verses above tell us. The “little horn” is not another kingdom or beast he is “the little horn” who comes OUT of the 4th kingdom.  

I have been trying to discuss Daniel 2 to establish the “foundation” of His prophecies to come in the later chapters- 7, 8, 9 & 11. We can certainly interpret 2 on its own... no need for Revelation here! 

But we all see Daniel and other verses in the Bible differently... and that is ok because our different interpretations do NOT contradict or take away from our faith, trust and love for God!!!!! 

Best wishes always and thanks for the thoughts and responses, Charlie