The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[Diaste]

Good morning. 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

But, I am kinda wondering:  For the individual, do you feel that it will be more dangerous to face the deception of what you see as the activity of the rider on the white horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the white horse?

I don't know if I would define it as you have. In the 1940's it was very dangerous just to be a Jew in Nazi Germany. From 700-1400 AD it was very dangerous to be anything other than a Muslim in the Mideast and parts of Europe. 

From what I see in scripture the initial rider goes forth bent on conquering Israel and Jerusalem. His is a singular focus and the rest follows. 

In truth we are always in great danger as it's our eternal souls at stake. In any calamity God the Father must overshadow us and save our spirits. What's coming may be unprecedented, intense and dire but in the end it's Jesus Christ alone, as it has been since the beginning.

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

For the individual, do you feel that it will be more painful to face the war(s) of what you see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the red horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the red horse?

For the individual, do you feel that it will be more difficult to face the poverty resulting from what you see as the activity of the rider on the black horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the black horse?

For the individual, do you feel that death by martyrdom will be worse from what you see as the activity of the rider on the pale horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the pale horse?

I think the issue is not one of degrees but of recognition of fulfillment.  As I have said before (maybe not to you but I have said it :)) how would we know any of the prophecy came to pass if it's business as usual? How many wars have been fought since the first century?

What seems to me to be outrageous and shocking is there has been 750 wars in the last 2000 years in Europe. That's 37 wars every century for 2000 years on a single continent, a nearly constant state of war. How would we know this is the 'wars and rumors of wars' or the Red rider? We cannot. Do you know why? Europe and the Mideast are constantly at war and have been since 700 BC or before, before the Matt 24 prophecy, which prophecy is an outline of Revelation. The same would go for economic control and martyrs. This has happened since the beginning when Cain slew Abel, the first martyr.

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Said a different way, are you believing that the result and experience of one's being deceived after your concept of the 1st Seal being opened is going to be worse than being deceived by Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Wicca, or any of the myriad other cults and false doctrines that are presently in the world?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's being killed in the future war(s), after your concept of the 2nd Seal being opened, is going to be worse than that of a present day war (or any of the other wars since the first century)?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's poverty is going to be worse when it happens as a result of your concept of the 3rd Seal being opened than it has been as a result of all the famines, earthquakes, and pestilences that have occurred since the first century?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's being martyred is going to be worse when it happens after your concept of the 4th Seal being opened than it has been for those martyred heretofore?

Do you believe that the cry of a martyr for justice will be more impassioned after your concept of the 5th Seal being opened than it was for those martyred in some century prior?

No. The concept is flawed. It's not degrees. Each of your questions are an emotional plea and that carries no weight in a debate with me. Where we differ is in timing. You have interpreted 'soon come to pass' and 'at hand' as immediate on a time/space continuum, I do not. 

The terms 'en ginomai' and 'kairos eggus' do not show immediacy. Both ideas speak to a season or proper time and not a commencement. Several on this site have found this same idea of ensuing commencement to be valid but it's not. 

I have always found this to be a doctrinal stab in the dark to overcome the insurmountable issue a particular doctrine encounters in the timing of the gathering. I have been looking into this since the 70's and this idea is massaging of the pretrib doctrine of imminence. They could not overcome the obvious timing problem and so had to make changes, one being the opening of the seals from the 1st century. 

Instead of all the bad stuff beginning at the 1st seal now it all begins at the 6th seal; and as everyone knows this is the only legitimate moment of the return of Christ and the gathering of the elect. In my mind it is a categorical doctrinal failure; soothing for me since I have know this since the late 80's, and a failure dooming pretrib and it's adherents. 

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

And you know, we're talking about somewhat more than an individual.  We are talking about millions and millions and millions, since Christ spoke the words and John was given The Revelation.  As someone has rightly said, "Sometimes we don't realize that prophecy has been fulfilled till we look over our shoulders in retrospect."

Uh huh...and the looking back is this moment? How do you deal with

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."?

The above quote must come to pass as stated. Jesus cannot be speaking to the Jews of the 1st century as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man didn't occur and neither did the gathering; neither did the physical coming of Jesus to earth occur.

This means no other generation is the terminal generation as none of these things came to pass in toto. Which also means the concept of Revelation seals being opened in the 1st century could not have occurred either since Matt 24 is the outline of the events of Revelation. 

This one statement by Jesus vaults Matt 24 and Revelation firmly into a time when a single generation is witness to:

many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

 wars and rumors of wars,

Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

famines and earthquakes in various places. 

you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 

 many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 

many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

the love of most will grow cold.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world 

‘the abomination of desolation

 great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 

Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders 

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,  and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

None has yet happened in the context of Jesus return.

[not an echo]

(Charlie744's original reply to not an echo's 3/6/2021 post):

not an echo, I believe you are one of a very few that have departed from the "accepted interpretation" that Daniel's 70th week is STILL TO COME. However, we seem to have a slight difference of opinion and it certainly can be discussed here if you are willing.

Above you say the last week started in v. 11:1. I think I see the last week is being discussed or revealed by Daniel after 11:4 (the first 4 verses in 11 merely recap or summarize the first 3 kingdoms of Daniel's chapter 2 metal man image and it also mentions that Alexander's empire was disbursed among his 4 generals... (and these are and never would be "kingdoms"). Consequently, for me, 11:5 begins the revealing of the 4th kingdom and all the actors and events that will take place with the coming Messiah.

I would welcome your comments and thoughts to the above opinion and also why you believe 11:1 is your start of the 4th kingdom... thanks so much, Charlie

========================================================================

(My original reply to Charlie744, but corrected, to show what is in green as being my quote, instead of his...)

Hello Charlie744,

Well, I'm grinning as I am typing!   I most certainly accept the "accepted interpretation" that Daniel's 70th Week is STILL TO COME!!!  When you saw my 11:1 reference, I believe you thought I was talking about Daniel 11:1.  However, I was talking about Revelation 11:1.  Note from that post below, and what I have highlighted:

In harmony with the above, in The Revelation, Christ's Sign Appearance is shown with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17, esp. vss. 15-16).  The account of Daniel's 70th Week begins in 11:1 (cp. II Thess. 2:3-4 with Matt. 24:15).  His Second Coming is shown in Revelation 19:11-21.  Consider how this placement of the prophetic puzzle pieces fits with all the other pieces... 

I can kinda see how you might have thought what you did, as it seems that your primarily focus has been on Daniel.  I'm going to go back and edit my post (3/6/2021) and add Revelation to the 11:1 reference---all because of you! 

Edited March 16, 2021 by not an echo
effort to clarify mix-up of original post

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Hello Charlie744,

Well, I'm grinning as I am typing!   I most certainly accept the "accepted interpretation" that Daniel's 70th Week is STILL TO COME!!!  When you saw my 11:1 reference, you thought I was talking about Daniel 11:1.  However, I was talking about Revelation 11:1.  Note from that post below...

I can kinda see how you might have thought what you did, as it seems that your primarily focus has been on Daniel.  I'm going to edit my post and add Revelation to the 11:1 reference---all because of you!  

I am confused... Are you saying the response in green had been written by myself?

I would have responded and commented on Daniel’s 70 weeks for sure but not a Revelation verse.... have not studied it at all at this time.

But if you believe the last week in Daniel has yet to be fulfilled then I would like to understand why it feel this way... 

Thanks so much, Charlie 

[not an echo]

1 minute ago, Charlie744 said:

8 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Hello Charlie744,

Well, I'm grinning as I am typing!   I most certainly accept the "accepted interpretation" that Daniel's 70th Week is STILL TO COME!!!  When you saw my 11:1 reference, you thought I was talking about Daniel 11:1.  However, I was talking about Revelation 11:1.  Note from that post below...

I can kinda see how you might have thought what you did, as it seems that your primarily focus has been on Daniel.  I'm going to edit my post and add Revelation to the 11:1 reference---all because of you!  

Expand  

I am confused... Are you saying the response in green had been written by myself?

I would have responded and commented on Daniel’s 70 weeks for sure but not a Revelation verse.... have not studied it at all at this time.

But if you believe the last week in Daniel has yet to be fulfilled then I would like to understand why it feel this way... 

Thanks so much, Charlie 

No, I just highlighted my original post in green.  I thought it might be helpful if I did that.  It just so happened that when I pulled my quote from your post (during my reply), it retained your name.  I should have just copied and pasted it instead of pulling it as a quote.  The learning curve...

Got to go.  Hope this helps with any confusion...

[not an echo]

On 3/15/2021 at 12:38 PM, Charlie744 said:

On 3/15/2021 at 12:31 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Charlie744,

Well, I'm grinning as I am typing!   I most certainly accept the "accepted interpretation" that Daniel's 70th Week is STILL TO COME!!!  When you saw my 11:1 reference, you thought I was talking about Daniel 11:1.  However, I was talking about Revelation 11:1.  Note from that post below...

I can kinda see how you might have thought what you did, as it seems that your primarily focus has been on Daniel.  I'm going to edit my post and add Revelation to the 11:1 reference---all because of you!  

I am confused... Are you saying the response in green had been written by myself?

I would have responded and commented on Daniel’s 70 weeks for sure but not a Revelation verse.... have not studied it at all at this time.

But if you believe the last week in Daniel has yet to be fulfilled then I would like to understand why it feel this way... 

Thanks so much, Charlie 

Hey Charlie744,

I found a little time this afternoon to go back and try to fix my post (a couple of posts above) so that it would not show my quote (in green) as being yours.  I did the best I knew how with what the edit would allow me.  Hope that takes care of any confusion...

Edited March 16, 2021 by not an echo

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Hey Charlie744,

I found a little time this afternoon to go back and try to fix my post (a couple of posts above) so that it would not show my quote (in green) as being yours.  I did the best I knew how with what the edit would allow me.  Hope that takes care of any confusion...

Thank you very much but please don't worry..... rather, continue to offer your thoughts and interpretations to as many topics in this site as you have time for.....

Best wishes, Charlie

[not an echo]

On 3/12/2021 at 4:21 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/11/2021 at 1:45 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Because I grew up with the KJV, I have long been used to it's translation of "a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Rev. 5:1).  Of course, why the translators used the word "book" instead of "scroll" I do not know.  It is a question I believe we will be able to ask them one fine day.  But, if it is indeed a scroll, this would not impact my view.  For me, it's one of them things that is about as broad as it is long.

I know that there are different ideas floating around about the book or the scroll and how it is sealed.  Interestingly, I can think of no design that would impact how I am seeing things.  I have also wondered if we need to be supposing that what God was holding in His hand was after this design or that.  I mean, if John had said that God was holding a phone, would it be the old rotary type phone, a flip up phone, or a smartphone?  I would suppose that it would be a little higher order of a phone that what we are presently used to!  Likewise, I can imagine that of the scroll God was holding, it could be said, "Now that's a scroll!" 

Supposing it is a scroll, when the 1st Seal was opened, IF there was some roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw (Rev. 6:1-2).  I say IF because I have never really seen it depicting some roll out of the scroll.  But, perhaps that is what is happening.  I have always envisioned that the seals were only on the outside and that there could be no opening of the book or scroll until all the seals were removed.  But again, it matters not.

When the 2nd Seal was opened, if there was some more roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw then (Rev. 6:3-4).  When the 3rd Seal was opened, if there was some more roll out of the scroll, we have an account of what John saw then (Rev. 6:5-6).  And so forth.  Whatever the design of the scroll, whatever the placement of the seals, what is beyond the 7th Seal would not be revealed until the 7th Seal is removed.

Call it consistency, call it hermeneutics, call it "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (II Tim. 2:15), anyway you cut it, we have a pattern in The Revelation that I see as Divine.  And, for all of the efforts to treat The Revelation otherwise, my understanding has been helped far greater the more I have regarded this pattern.  Very basically, take the first three verses of The Revelation (it's foundation) in the simplicity of its reading.  Next, take 1:19 in the simplicity of its reading:  "Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter."  Then note...

There is a letter to "the church of Ephesus" and we see its contents (2:1-7).  Then, there is a letter to "the church in Smyrna" and we see it contents (2:8-11).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the seven churches in Asia.

Next, the 1st Seal of a Seven Sealed Book is opened and we see what happens (6:1-2).  Then, the 2nd Seal of the book is opened and we see what happens (6:3-4).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the seals.

Next, the 1st Trumpet of a series of Seven Trumpets is sounded and we see what happens (8:7).  Then, the 2nd Trumpet of the seven is sounded and we see what happens (8:8-9).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the trumpets.

Next, the 1st Vial of Seven Vials of God's Wrath is poured out and we see what happens (16:2).  Then, the 2nd Vial of the seven is poured out and we see what happens (16:3).  Then, it is so forth for the rest of the vials.

As I see it Diaste, The Revelation is not only Divinely chronological, it is logical.  It is marvelous.  And, when the basics of the foregoing are seen, adhered to, and applied to what is revealed in The Revelation as a whole, it makes for an understanding that has helped me far more than any other.  I'm thinking that you probably have, but I would like to encourage you to look again at the OP of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  I need to go and look at it again, myself.  The best I remember, it kinda got derailed.  But, I am comfortable with my faithfulness to Scripture (the important thing) in every post/reply that I made there.  My understanding of the chronology of The Revelation is different that anything I have found in print or the webworld---but much more simple.  I think of Ackham's Razor.  Got to go...

I would agree that any set of whatever that is a numbered set is in order and in the case of the seals, trumps and vials in Rev they are in order and opened, sounded and poured out in order from 1-7.

Where I do not agree, and where there is no real justification for it, is that trumps must follow seals and can only ever follow after the 7th seal. 

I don't think it hard to see at all that the 7th trump and the 6th seal occur close together. 

A bit harder to see is the trumps and vials all occurring within the time period depicted by the 7 seals. Or I would say that the 7th seal is the final disposition, the culmination of all Revelation reveals and it's within that last seal all the vials are poured out.

 

Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.- 7th seal

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake" - 7th Bowl

Above is a description of occurrences at both the 7th seal and the 7th bowl.

Hello Diaste,

While I have continued to try and see your understanding (I really have), I am not able to see what you are seeing nearly as easily as I am able to see what I am seeing (you may have to read that a second time ).  All things considered, that the trumpets are sounded after the 7th Seal is removed, and that they can only be sounded then, just seems so apparent to me that no other understanding is even in the ball park.

Concerning...

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were peals of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.- 7th seal

"And there were flashes of lightning, and rumblings, and peals of thunder, and a great earthquake" - 7th Bowl"

and your statement that "Above is a description of occurrences at both the 7th seal and the 7th bowl",  I see these repeats as being kinda like the refrain in a song---similar to what is often observed in a basketball game.  For example, at the end of the first quarter, our cheerleaders cheered, the pep band played, and the crowd yelled and stomped till the bleachers were shaking!  Same at the end of the second quarter and the third quarter.  AND WHEN WE WON!, the cheerleaders cheered, the pep band played, the crowd yelled and stomped till the bleachers were shaking, and we about brought the house down!!!  Read afresh Revelation 8:5 and 11:19, and then 16:18-21, after the "It is done" of verse 17.

I've got to go for now.  I am anxious concerning my next reply to your posts, as I will be giving my answer to something that I know has been an impasse to your understanding of how I see things.  In the meantime, if you will look at the OP of my thread, Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/), note especially what I say relating to Jesus' use of the fig tree parable and "This generation..." (Matt. 24:32-35).

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo
add link

[not an echo]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

For the individual, do you feel that it will be more painful to face the war(s) of what you see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the red horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the red horse?

For the individual, do you feel that it will be more difficult to face the poverty resulting from what you see as the activity of the rider on the black horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the black horse?

For the individual, do you feel that death by martyrdom will be worse from what you see as the activity of the rider on the pale horse, than it has been for what I see as stemming from the activity of the rider on the pale horse?

Expand  

I think the issue is not one of degrees but of recognition of fulfillment.  As I have said before (maybe not to you but I have said it :)) how would we know any of the prophecy came to pass if it's business as usual? How many wars have been fought since the first century?

What seems to me to be outrageous and shocking is there has been 750 wars in the last 2000 years in Europe. That's 37 wars every century for 2000 years on a single continent, a nearly constant state of war. How would we know this is the 'wars and rumors of wars' or the Red rider? We cannot. Do you know why? Europe and the Mideast are constantly at war and have been since 700 BC or before, before the Matt 24 prophecy, which prophecy is an outline of Revelation. The same would go for economic control and martyrs. This has happened since the beginning when Cain slew Abel, the first martyr.

Hey Diaste,

Let me see how far I can get this afternoon...

First of all, we both know that prophecy, though Divine, is so very challenging.  Hey, we are human, and seeing "through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12)!  Also, I realize in the core of my being that both you and I are human.  And, I know what all has been involved in my seeing things as I presently do.  I think of when Christ came the first time.  The Israelites (God's chosen people!) were looking for something different than what they were seeing, and before they realized their error, they became a party to His crucifixion.  But, many of their hearts were pricked on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36-37).  I think of Paul, and what such a turn around.  Realizing these things, I try my best to be prayerfully careful with my every reply.  I want to believe that we have this in common.

To the subject of our focus, and expressed yet another way, on the basis of Scripture, history, and (what I believe to be) sound reasoning, I will maintain that what Jesus warned of in His Olivet Discourse indeed began to come to pass and will continue to come to pass until its fulness (Matt. 24:5-14), after which there will be the transition into Daniel's 70th Week (Matt. 24:15-28), this latter being divided from the former by the intersecting event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture (Matt. 29-51).

Concerning Matthew 24:5-14, if what Jesus warned of had not began to come to pass in accord with what I have put forth in all my threads, a much bigger argument (for many) than what you have put forth would be that Jesus Christ didn't know what in the world He was talking about.  What were Christ's followers in the 2nd Century supposed to think when they saw some of the evidences of what Jesus warned of in the first part of His discourse?  Were they supposed to wonder and wonder and then have to dismiss it because it didn't quite measure up to their preconceptions?  At what time would they recognize that their preconceptions were misconceptions.  What about with the martyrs of the Dark Ages?  What about with the onset of World War I?  It was called WORLD WAR I.  Well, the dust settled from that.  Did Jesus miss something?  What about with the onset of World War II?  It was called WORLD WAR II.  Well, the dust settled from that.  Did Jesus miss another something?  Maybe the third time will be the charm...

Oh, but what about when Israel became a nation!  Yes!   Yet now, all these decades have come and gone and everyone is busy, busy, busy, stretching, stretching, stretching on the words "this generation" (Matt.24:34), just knowing, knowing, knowing that He is going to come before such and such a time.  And Jesus wasn't even speaking of Israel in His parable of the fig tree (Matt. 24:32-35).

Back to what I said earlier about Christ, when He came the first time.  The Israelites were looking for something different than what they were seeing.  Oops, not all the Israelites.  I think of Simeon in Luke 2:25-35.  Yes, there were some more, but Simeon comes to mind, and especially in connection with something he says in verse 34.

Concerning my thoughts on "this generation",  I had aimed to get there by now, but now I've got to go drive my school bus route.   And, I got interrupted two BIG times before I really got started today.   Maybe my thoughts just need a bit more seasoning...

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:19 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Said a different way, are you believing that the result and experience of one's being deceived after your concept of the 1st Seal being opened is going to be worse than being deceived by Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, Wicca, or any of the myriad other cults and false doctrines that are presently in the world?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's being killed in the future war(s), after your concept of the 2nd Seal being opened, is going to be worse than that of a present day war (or any of the other wars since the first century)?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's poverty is going to be worse when it happens as a result of your concept of the 3rd Seal being opened than it has been as a result of all the famines, earthquakes, and pestilences that have occurred since the first century?

Are you believing that the result and experience of one's being martyred is going to be worse when it happens after your concept of the 4th Seal being opened than it has been for those martyred heretofore?

Do you believe that the cry of a martyr for justice will be more impassioned after your concept of the 5th Seal being opened than it was for those martyred in some century prior?

Expand  

No. The concept is flawed. It's not degrees. Each of your questions are an emotional plea and that carries no weight in a debate with me. Where we differ is in timing. You have interpreted 'soon come to pass' and 'at hand' as immediate on a time/space continuum, I do not. 

The terms 'en ginomai' and 'kairos eggus' do not show immediacy. Both ideas speak to a season or proper time and not a commencement. Several on this site have found this same idea of ensuing commencement to be valid but it's not. 

I have always found this to be a doctrinal stab in the dark to overcome the insurmountable issue a particular doctrine encounters in the timing of the gathering. I have been looking into this since the 70's and this idea is massaging of the pretrib doctrine of imminence. They could not overcome the obvious timing problem and so had to make changes, one being the opening of the seals from the 1st century. 

Instead of all the bad stuff beginning at the 1st seal now it all begins at the 6th seal; and as everyone knows this is the only legitimate moment of the return of Christ and the gathering of the elect. In my mind it is a categorical doctrinal failure; soothing for me since I have know this since the late 80's, and a failure dooming pretrib and it's adherents. 

Back for a little while anyway.  I'm minded to go in a little different direction this time than I have before in response to similar, as there are a few different directions that I have on my mind.

When it comes to linguistics, sound doctrine, and the study of prophecy, I believe we are both aware that we all have to guard against eschatological biases.  Even the translators have to guard against such, and still, there are evidences of such showing up.

When we have come to be convinced of a certain position, it is quite natural to bask in the discovery (even if supposed) that it will continue to hold up under careful scrutiny.  Further, if it seems that there is a want of support from this translation or that, it is easy to dismiss some in favor of others.  And, if worse comes to worse, what can we discover from the lexicons?  My observation has been that if one looks long enough and hard enough, what is being looked for can be found some way, some how.  Hey, Satan is in the mix of all this too!  We can't forget this.  And, I never do.

Curiously, with all the scholarship that is in the fray, scholarship is wrestling with it all as much as it ever has, if not more.  I'm reminded of what Paul said to Timothy of some, who are "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:7).  Some of the most noted, quoted, and accomplished scholars on the face of the earth believe we evolved from lifeless muck.  And it matters not the side of the fence, scholarship will be there.  What's the deal?  The foundation of the scholarship.  Jesus spoke to that.  He said, "If ye continue in My Word, then are ye my disciples indeed;  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (Jn. 8:31b-32).  The night before He was crucified, He said to the disciples, "Howbeit, when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth:  for He shall not speak of Himself;  but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak:  and He will shew you things to come" (Jn. 16:13).  Of course, there's more.  And realize Diaste, I'm not saying these things because I think you may not be aware.  I'm saying these things because I want you (and all) to know that I am aware.

Before I move to my next reply, if things were turned around and the New Testament had been penned in English and we were Greeks, imagine what we could do with a Collegiate Webster's (not to mention the Internet).  Moreover, we are very keenly aware to the realization that there's much more to sentences and paragraphs than the definition of one or two particular words or phrases.  And me, I'm still working on getting me ole English down,  so you'll have to pardon me on some things!

Having said all this, I think for now, where the water really meets the wheel in our discussion of late may revolve around "this generation" (Matt. 24:32-35, esp. vs. 34) and what I am going to do with that, in relation to my position(s).  But first, I got some other callings...

Edited March 20, 2021 by not an echo

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey Diaste,

Let me see how far I can get this afternoon...

First of all, we both know that prophecy, though Divine, is so very challenging.  Hey, we are human, and seeing "through a glass, darkly" (I Cor. 13:12)!  Also, I realize in the core of my being that both you and I are human.  And, I know what all has been involved in my seeing things as I presently do.  I think of when Christ came the first time.  The Israelites (God's chosen people!) were looking for something different than what they were seeing, and before they realized their error, they became a party to His crucifixion.  But, many of their hearts were pricked on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36-37).  I think of Paul, and what such a turn around.  Realizing these things, I try my best to be prayerfully careful with my every reply.  I want to believe that we have this in common.

To the subject of our focus, and expressed yet another way, on the basis of Scripture, history, and (what I believe to be) sound reasoning, I will maintain that what Jesus warned of in His Olivet Discourse indeed began to come to pass and will continue to come to pass until its fulness (Matt. 24:5-14), after which there will be the transition into Daniel's 70th Week (Matt. 24:15-28), this latter being divided from the former by the intersecting event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture (Matt. 29-51).

Since Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." we have to deal with:

What generation?

What are 'all these things'? 

If all these things are the whole prophesy which forms the answer to the question,

"“Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”"

Then no, none of it has come to pass yet as it must come to pass in a single generation. That would mean no generation has yet been the generation as verses 15-31 did not happen at any time in the past 1988 years

The generation in question will see all of it, not just a portion.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning Matthew 24:5-14, if what Jesus warned of had not began to come to pass in accord with what I have put forth in all my threads, a much bigger argument (for many) than what you have put forth would be that Jesus Christ didn't know what in the world He was talking about.  What were Christ's followers in the 2nd Century supposed to think when they saw some of the evidences of what Jesus warned of in the first part of His discourse?  Were they supposed to wonder and wonder and then have to dismiss it because it didn't quite measure up to their preconceptions?  At what time would they recognize that their preconceptions were misconceptions.  What about with the martyrs of the Dark Ages?  What about with the onset of World War I?  It was called WORLD WAR I.  Well, the dust settled from that.  Did Jesus miss something?  What about with the onset of World War II?  It was called WORLD WAR II.  Well, the dust settled from that.  Did Jesus miss another something?  Maybe the third time will be the charm...

I'm pretty sure they would have understood what  "Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." meant to the entirety of the prophecy. Meaning the end is not then. The prophecy is a whole and not meant to be attacked with an ice pick.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Oh, but what about when Israel became a nation!  Yes!   Yet now, all these decades have come and gone and everyone is busy, busy, busy, stretching, stretching, stretching on the words "this generation" (Matt.24:34), just knowing, knowing, knowing that He is going to come before such and such a time.  And Jesus wasn't even speaking of Israel in His parable of the fig tree (Matt. 24:32-35).

Well, "What generation?" is an important part of the prophecy since it's Jesus own words and it must be accounted for.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Back to what I said earlier about Christ, when He came the first time.  The Israelites were looking for something different than what they were seeing.  Oops, not all the Israelites.  I think of Simeon in Luke 2:25-35.  Yes, there were some more, but Simeon comes to mind, and especially in connection with something he says in verse 34.

Still have to deal the prophesy as a whole. All is truth and all is important and one truth cannot and should not be elevated over another truth, nor can one truth be ignored in favor of another. Every fact must be accounted for and fit harmoniously into the story. The entire body of facts lead to a true conclusion and a conclusion must never be put before the facts.

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning my thoughts on "this generation,"  I had aimed to get there by now, but now I've got to go drive my school bus route.   And, I got interrupted to BIG times before I really got started today.   Maybe my thoughts just need a bit more seasoning...