The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

[Diaste]

On 3/22/2021 at 11:12 AM, not an echo said:

In regard to your above post, I would just like to clarify that I agree with you concerning your statement, "That would mean no generation has yet been the generation as verses 15-31 did not happen at any time in the past 1988 years."  Have you been thinking that I was believing this has happened???

The issue lies in the separation and dividing of the Olivet discourse and what I see as a diminishing of the GT to tribulation, or hard times, to millennia of geopolitical and socio-economic conditions of followers of the Way.

The themes of dispensationalism and supersessionism are quite familiar and propose interpretations out of character of the written text. 

You may not be saying the A of D has yet happened, of course that would be foolish, but it seems to me the implications are there as you speak of 'church age' as a major tenet of your philosophy. It's not like the A of D is of any consequence to pretrib as they won't be here anyway, that's just for Jews and unbelievers.

In accord with pretrib the church must have already endured tribulation since the 1st century and the idea of the seals 1-5 in full swing is proof texting the required interpretation of end of the age philosophy of any stripe. The Church is far too pure and holy to endure more than what they have determined in their own mind is enough. Hence the early exit and the need to stretch the prophecy so thin across vast distances it no longer applies to the 'church'. 

So it appears to me there is a vast disconnect between what is written and what is proposed. I would question how and why this exists and we could hammer away at it till judgment day but it's not fruitful. 

I will continue on with my simplistic beliefs and normative understanding of the text till the cows come home. 

 

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

an A of D as described by Daniel in chapters 9

Another popular misconception of Daniel 9. That passage actually never uses this term in the Hebrew. Here is an accurate reading. Sorry if it is too technical for some.

Note that the term "abominations" is plural. Note also that this event does not take place in the Holy Place/Sanctuary, as required by the Olivet discourse. This passage was fulfilled in detail in 70 AD.

…וְעַל/And upon/over כְּנַף/a wing/corner/border, שִׁקּוּצִים/abominable things/idols of מְשֹׁמֵם/one who destroys/a destroyer [Polel verb stem (like Piel: intensive) Active Participle ms]…

“… And upon/over a wing/corner shall be abominations/idols of a destroyer…”

Comment: All kinds of presumptions have been imposed by different translators upon this phrase. For example, עַל means “upon, over,” never “for” or “by.” (Compare what your Bible says.)

כְּנַף is a noun here; this spelling is never a verb participle, as the KJV mistranslates it (“overspreading”). It has no prefix ה/the.

שִׁקּוּצִים is plural, not singular. Although many people presume that this phraseשִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם/shiqqutzim məshomame is equivalent to the similar-sounding phrase שִׁקּוּץ שֹׁמֵם/shiqqutz shomame of Daniel 12:11, they are significantly different. Only the latter phrase fulfills the prophecy by Jesus about “the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Matt. 24:15 Both shiqqutz and shomame are singular and lack the prefixה, so shomame can act as an attributive participle, thus as a modifier of shiqqutz: “a desolating abomination” = “an abomination of desolation.”

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1598-daniel-924-27-examined-part-5-verse-27/

 

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/20/2021 at 5:13 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Well, it has been an aggravating computer morning.  First of all, I tried and tried to get your reply and my quote to transfer and show the Quote as being mine, but to no avail.  I have noticed this on some other rare occasions.  Do you know if this is a program glitch, or, something that I fail to do sometimes?  Also, sometimes on a post that gives an expand prompt, when expanded, some text may be found to overlap.  Also aggravating, as I am a perfectionist.

Next, after working on what had became a fairly lengthy reply, I had to go to town.  So, rather than go ahead and submit my reply, I went to town with thoughts of proofreading upon my return, then submitting.  When I got back, my computer was locked, like in a deep sleep.  After much effort, all I was able to do was to get it to let me X out.  When I came back in, I was still logged in, but my reply was gone.  You may know the feeling.  Right now, I'm thinking of keeping my replies shorter, so that when similar happens in the future, I may not lose so much.  At least, till I discover what is happening.

It just glitches. I have experienced all of that. Even clicked 'Submit Reply', the system goes into save mode, sits there thinking forever and then just resets and deletes the text. Annoying, as sometimes much time has been taken to respond.

I feel ya bro.

And what is with the editor?  Sometimes it's complete, sometimes not. 

Hey Diaste,

Thanks for reassuring me some here.  I was starting to feel like a big dummy!

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

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Annnyway, it must be understood that I see what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31---through to the end of the chapter---as concerning the event of His Sign Appearance and the rapture, an event that will precede His Second Coming by at least seven years.  Said a different way, based upon everything that I am seeing in Scripture, EVERYTHING Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-51 concerns THE VERY DAY of this event.  Moreover, this section of Scripture includes His parable of the fig tree and the "this generation" statement (24:32-35).

"an event that will precede His Second Coming by at least seven years."

Yeah? The thought process goes like this?

We are not destined to wrath.

The 70th week of Daniel is all wrath.

We are not destined to the 70th week of Daniel.

The first premise is true, the second, not so much.

Concisely, the thought process goes more like this, as I would express it:

     The Revelation is in chronological order.

     The rapture of the Church will happen with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17).

     Daniel's 70th Week does not begin until Revelation 11:1.

     The Church will not be a part of Daniel's 70th Week.

     Daniel's 70th Week will come to a close with Christ's Second Advent.

     The first premise is true, the second is true, and so forth.

As a sidebar concerning the second thought process you listed ("The 70th week of Daniel is all wrath"), I never talk of Daniel's 70th Week as being "all wrath."

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

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Said a different way, based upon everything that I am seeing in Scripture, EVERYTHING Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-51 concerns THE VERY DAY of this event.  Moreover, this section of Scripture includes His parable of the fig tree and the "this generation" statement (24:32-35).

Sure. But why limit 'Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened' to the end of the discourse? It doesn't apply to v. 4-28? How is that justified? 

Are you saying 'all these things' cannot or should not include the false christs, persecution, the travail of the earth, war and the A of D? They are all ' things', are they not? All part of the answer to the question, "“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”"

Pay close attention and consider (from my understanding of course):

Because Matthew 24:29-51 concerns Christ's Sign Appearance, and this intersecting event locates between verses 14 and 15 (as evidenced in The Revelation), verses 15-28 can certainly be considered a part of the "all these things" of Matthew 24:33, as this is only a seven year period---the period of Daniel's 70th Week.  From a different angle, if Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture happens today (the 6th Seal), those left behind would immediately constitute "This generation" (24:34) which would be alive for both Christ's Sign Appearance and the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  Quite logically, if the rapture takes place pre-Daniel's 70th Week, the generation alive at that time (and left behind) will at least see "all these things" (Matt. 24:33).

Now, I can't say for sure if I have ever thought about what I am about to state.  But, it is something that may help you to see the other elements of my understanding.  It may be an example of how the Lord works in the discussions that His children have to bring us all to a better understanding.  Consider from the preceding paragraph again, with what I have added in bold:  If Christ's Sign Appearance and the rapture happens today (the 6th Seal), those left behind would immediately constitute "This generation" (24:34) which would be alive for both Christ's Sign Appearance and the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  Quite logically, if the rapture takes place pre-Daniel's 70th Week, the generation alive at that time (and left behind) will at least see "all these things" (Matt. 24:33).  FURTHER, those left behind WILL HAVE ALSO SEEN THE ACTIVITY OF THE FOUR HORSEMEN FOR HOW EVER MANY YEARS THEY HAD BEEN ALIVE BEFORE THE EVENT OF THE RAPTURE.

Using myself as an example, I am 63.  If, according to my understanding, the four horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of history since the time of the Apostles, even until now, I have been a witness to the results of their activity for several decades.  IF I WERE A LOST PERSON, AND THE RAPTURE OCCURRED TODAY, the generation of which I am a part will have been alive for several decades of the activity of the four horsemen, PLUS the event of the opening of the 6th Seal and the rapture.  IF I SURVIVED THE ACCOMPANYING DESTRUCTION OF THIS TIME, I would be in the number of those who would also witness the rise of the Antichrist and the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  IF I WERE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO SURVIVE IN THE FACE OF MY ELUDING THE MARK OF THE BEAST, I would also easily be in the number of those who would be awaiting Christ's Return as King of kings and Lord of lords.  At that time I would be 70 or 71.    Meaning---I shall have seen "ALL these things" (Matt. 24:33).

If we put parentheses around the pre-trib rapture and Daniel's 70th Week, what is within the parenthesis would make for only some seven years of time.  Any adult alive at this time would have seen activity attributable to the four horsemen as well---easily.  Fresh and interesting thoughts, even for me.  And, not an echo of anything that anyone else has said, that I am aware of.  But, I'll probably be echoing myself. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

 Except you Diaste, I may hate on you a little bit.  Just kidding.   

I do what I can. 

Hey, say it ain't so 

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I do not see what Jesus says in verses 5-14 as being part of the "all these things" of verse 33.  One reason---again---one reason, is because of what He says in verses 5-6:  "For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ;  and shall deceive many.  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:  see that ye be not troubled:  for all these things must come to pass, but the end IS NOT YET." 

And yet the exact words are repeated in v 4 and 34. Sure the end isn't at that time but Jesus groups the events and conditions into a  set of 'all these things'

Then says it again in verse 34, '...until all these things have happened.'

Seems to me all these things are unequivocally all these things, which is all of 'em.

In accord with my next to last post, I believe I can qualify what I have said concerning this, which makes for an increasingly interesting explanation for me.  Hopefully it will give you pause for some reconsideration.

A difference is that you have believed that the complete fulness of "all these things" will take place in the course of some 3-1/2 to 7 years.  In contrast, I see the first four seals as having been opened as early as late in the first century, and the activity of the four horsemen as continuing throughout the era of the NT Church, even until now.

You have said of me somewhere of late to the effect that I was partially preterist.  I can kinda see why you might say that, but this is not entirely accurate.  Why?  Because I don't see any of what John was shown would be "hereafter" (e.g., Rev. 1:19, 4:1) as having been fulfilled, but rather, as being fulfilled.  In other words, the "things" that John were shown "which must be hereafter" (4:1) actually began to be fulfilled in the proximity of his day.  The words of Jesus (Matt. 24:4-9), which dovetail with the first four seals (Rev. 6:1-8), which dovetail with what has occurred throughout history from then until now, bears what I believe to be irrefutable evidence in support of what I have long put forth.

Concerning the next seals, realize that because I see the opening of the 6th Seal as being imminent, I have no problem seeing the 5th Seal as also being open.  But, I understand this in the sense that the 5th Seal can be opened just before the 6th Seal is opened.  So, I would have no problem suggesting that the opening of the 5th Seal is imminent as well.  Only thing is, I know of nothing that would indicate for us that this has occurred.  My primary thought concerning this is that as the time of Christ's Sign Appearance draws nearer, so will the opening of the 5th Seal.  This understanding certainly fits the cry, "How long...doest thou not judge and avenge our blood..." (Rev. 6:10) as being the cry of Church Era martyrs, and what was said to them in reply, "that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants...that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev. 6:11) as being in reference to Daniel's 70th Week ("a little season")---which will begin just a matter of months after the opening of the 6th Seal.  In my thinking, if the martyrs referenced in connection with the opening of the 5th Seal were Daniel's 70th Week martyrs (as popularly believed), their cry, "How long..." seems quite out of place, as they would be in the presence of millions who had been martyred long, long before they were...

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

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I see all these things, of verse 6, and what follows through to verse 14 as stemming from the activity of the four horsemen. Based upon Scripture, history, and the way the wheels of my mind turn, they have been riding throughout the corridors of the era of the Church, even until now.           

I do as well, in a much shorter period of time. I don't think we should shy away from the obvious parallel between Matt 24 and the Revelation. It seems it happens but it diminishes our knowledge and understanding. Now maybe you aren't doing that but I don't see the two as disparate or stand alone, they work closely in conjunction, Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 as the broad outline of events and timing and the detailed prophecy of the Revelation presenting the body that proves the thesis. 

The time frame is limited to 7 years at most; some say less. Few are partially preterist, such as you. So what is that justifies your view? Certainly you can't justify by means of personal belief however strong the conviction. What is in 'I see it as..." that overrides the factual account and renders the conclusion you propose?

Concerning your first paragraph, I pretty well agree with everything you say here, except this part of the first sentence: "in a much shorter period of time."

Concerning your second paragraph, I spoke to your statement, "Few are partially preterist, such as you" in my previous post. I knew you had said something like that, I just wasn't remembering where at the time. 

Concerning the part B of your second paragraph, I would by no means ever try to justify a view based merely on conviction, how ever strong.  The foundation for anything we believe concerning the things of God must be The Word Of God.  All "I see it as..." means is that "As I interpret it..."  That's what we are all doing, isn't it?

[not an echo]

On 3/21/2021 at 7:38 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

I see all these things, of verse 6, and what follows through to verse 14 as stemming from the activity of the four horsemen. Based upon Scripture, history, and the way the wheels of my mind turn, they have been riding throughout the corridors of the era of the Church, even until now.           

Is is not better to adjust to the complete sphere of fact in the account, accepting the validity of those facts originating from the Alpha and Omega, aptly and accurately engaging our capacity for inference, all within the unyielding bounds of what is written?

I don't doubt for a minute that everything in the first four seals has been going on for millennia. It certainly has quite intensely from the gaze of historians. That doesn't mean it should, or could, be the fulfillment or the answer. 

There is a great deal written across the ages about this time. Ancient peoples and prophets spoke of the time Jesus would return to rule. Joel has seen it.

"Mourn like a virgin in sackcloth grieving for the betrothed of her youth. Grain offerings and drink offerings are cut off from the house of the Lord. [the A of D] The priests are in mourning, those who minister before the Lord. The fields are ruined, the ground is dried up; the grain is destroyed, [the 1st trump] the new wine is dried up, the olive oil fails."

There's more.

"Despair, you farmers, wail, you vine growers; grieve for the wheat and the barley, because the harvest of the field is destroyed."

1st trump: " A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass"

As you know the small grains which form the staple of populations diet are grasses. Joel records them as all gone at the time of the A of D, before the 6th seal, as Joel records the day of the Lord is only near at this point yet the 1st and third trump have sounded.

Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Has not the food been cut off before our very eyes [1st trump]— joy and gladness from the house of our God? [A of D] The seeds are shriveled beneath the clods. The storehouses are in ruins, the granaries have been broken down, for the grain has dried up. [1st trump] How the cattle moan! The herds mill about because they have no pasture; even the flocks of sheep are suffering. To you, Lord, I call, for fire has devoured the pastures in the wilderness [1st trump] and flames have burned up all the trees of the field. Even the wild animals pant for you; the streams of water have dried up [3rd trump] and fire has devoured the pastures in the wilderness. [1st trump]

Joel then places at least one trump either at the time of the A of D or before, and before the 6th seal, and before the 5th seal in all likelihood. I would bet the 1st trump and the 3rd seal are cause and effect. If all the grasses are gone there is no food. The 3rd seal records the cost of a loaf of bread as a days wage. I don't know about you but if that's true then we have a crushing scarcity of daily staples, just as Joel records. That means the 3rd seal, the 1st trump and the A of D are occurring all at the same time and the 1st trump is the cause of the 3rd seal, or at least a partner.

 This means any other timing than this is incorrect. So then if the trumps must sound within the last week then so to do the seals open only in the last week and not millennia prior.

Not the best of news but it is the truth.

IMHO, it seems that what you have done with some of Joel's prophecy is tantamount to taking a scenery puzzle and pushing some pieces together that have some similarities, but no true fit.  Yes, sometimes pieces fit.  Sometimes it just seems like they may fit.  I know that we both know this.  My encouragement to all would be to look further at the fulness of what we are all putting forth, to be very careful, and to double check and even triple check all those fits---both mine and yours.  Hey Diaste, that's what I do---always checking, double checking, praying, studying, comparing, adjusting, perfecting.  Like tweaking the resolution of a scope (micro or tele) so that the image is sharp, and I mean sharp.

[not an echo]

On 3/23/2021 at 4:22 AM, Diaste said:

On 3/22/2021 at 9:13 PM, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, I wager that you know right well that I would agree wholeheartedly with your statement .  Our goal must be to deal with it, or interpret it so that our understanding is in harmony with all of Scripture.  And, while you may not like my song, I submit that it is in tune with Scripture---and a lot better tune than some other songs I've heard.  I was thinking of saying a tiny something more, but our Father said enough is enough.  I will wager once more that you know right well what I was thinking...

I try not to assume what another person means until they explain. I was on the other side of that for many years and let me tell you it's emotionally draining. I still fight the residue of that after many years. I try my best not to do it to others.

I'm not playing a game or pretending, I promise.

Hey Diaste,

In all seriousness, I do take you seriously.  I know that you believe what you believe with conviction and that you have reasons for believing what you believe, like me, that go way beyond what it is possible to convey in a few posts, even many.  As you said to me a little bit back, I feel ya bro. 

And, I haven't minded too bad when you have come hard at something I have put forth.  On my end, if my interpretations are in error, blow the smithereens out of'em.  There's already enough error out there.  I have no desire to add any more.  I would as soon God strike me dead.  Often my prayer has gone like this:  "Father, if there is something that I need to see that I'm not seeing, do whatever You have to do to get me to see it.  I know You have my best interest and what is best at heart."  I would encourage anyone to pray in this manner.  I seek to serve Christ and His Kingdom purposes, not mine.  I want to believe the same about you Diaste.  As far as our discussions, some just engage my thought processes more than others.  You are one of the some.

Got to go, I'm about late for my bus route...