The Rapture Deception

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

So you said, "Not true the 7th trump will occur in conjunction with the sixth seal."

This is an incorrect statement. We know that the 6th seal will not occur at the same time as the 7th trump. First off, no trumps can occur until the 7th seal is opened, so the trumps certainly cannot happen in conjunction with the 6th seal. Secondly, we know that the 5th trump lasts 5 months so the 7th trump can't happen at the same time as the 6th seal. What you are saying is not supported by scripture.

The 6th seal

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Here we see wrath is about to begin. It has not begun, but the nations see the sign of His coming and know wrath is imminent, hence the hiding and hoping to be buried in an avalanche.

The 7th Trump

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power

and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

Here wrath has come. That means the sign of the coming and wrath is in the 6th seal and wrath has come at the 7th. Rev 11:18 and Rev 6:17 is the same verb, 'erchomai' which is a personal arrival, 'I come, arrive'. So unless the Lord comes twice to bring wrath then the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur in coordination. 

Also, if the trumps only occur after the seals are all opened then the wrath of God must be poured out during the trumps. This cannot be as it's only the bowls that are called the wrath of God, by God himself.

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." - Rev 15

"Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." - Rev 16

Likening seals or trumps to God's wrath is unbiblical. If you are saying 'we know' the trumps only occur after all the seals are opened based on Rev 8 you'll have to do better. John says, "And I saw.." not, "Then after this..." Nor is there an indication in the text the trumps only sound beginning in Rev 8. 

6 hours ago, The Light said:

So in conclusion, it is not the trumpets in the wrath of God causing the fires and destruction, it is the northern army. which the Lord deals with right before the day of the Lord begins.

There is reason to believe the army in Joel 2 is this one,

"And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like to serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt." -Rev 9

"A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run." - Joel 2

And if that is the case, which it is, this is not the same army as depicted in Ezekiel 38-39. 

Joel 3 is not yet the day of the Lord. "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision." - Joel 3

6 hours ago, The Light said:

There is not a contradiction. Fact, Noah is told to enter the ark in the first verse. Fact, Noah is obedient. Fact, the scripture says that Noah entered and it came to pass 7 days later that the flood was upon the earth. Fact, Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters were upon the earth. Fact, and the rain was upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights. Fact,

In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

There is no contradiction as the verse before the selfsame day is that the rain was upon the earth 40 days and 40 nights. It is a concluding statement, then a new paragraph begins. Secondly the entire purpose of the verse is to tell us that Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark in the same day.

And let's not forget this fact. When I first told you that Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, your vehement argument was that it took Noah 7 days to load the animals. You stuck to that for a while until it became obvious that all the animals were loaded on the selfsame day, meaning all the animals were loaded in one day.

I have a hard time understanding why you would not be interested in knowing the truth. If you can produce and Biblical evidence that what I say is wrong, I WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH. I don't understand why you are not seeking to know the truth. I think I would start with Noah. The is absolutely no way that Noah was not on the ark 7 days before the flood. You can accept the truth or you can continue to walk around blind, rejecting the truth of the Word. You are either blind to the truth or rejecting the truth. That much is obvious.

Well...that's terrible. No matter how you personally feel the record is clear:

And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was on the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. - Gen 7:6-7

Here it literally says Noah was already in the ark and the waters were upon the earth,  "And Noah went in....because of the waters of the flood." He was in the ark BECAUSE OF THE WATERS OF THE FLOOD, not because 7 days is symbolic of a 7 year pretrib frolic in the heavenlies. But what about verse 1? How is it that Noah waited until v 7 to enter the ark when God already commanded him to enter the ark in v 1? Not asking, pointing out the contradiction in the idea you have. If you're going to say that Noah was already in the ark before the animals entered then it also  to be that Noah was in the ark before Noah gathered the animals, " Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens," Seriously, how did he find 7 clean beasts when he was confined to the ark?

Then;

"Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creeps on the earth, There went in two and two to Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah." - Gen 7:8-9

Only now, after Noah is in the ark because of the flood, are the animals loaded?

"And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were on the earth." Gen 7:10

So you are saying that Noah and the family went in to the ark because of the flood 7 days before the flood occurred? And that the animals were loaded during the flood? The text clearly says Noah was in the ark "...because of the waters..." after which then the animals would have entered while the flood was occurring. What's being conveyed is the animals are going in to the ark for 7 days and after that 7 days the flood came. That word 'to' that you insist means Noah had to be in the ark does not convey that idea. The preposition 'el' certainly means 'into' but it's ludicrous to interpret the passage to say the animals went 'into Noah' when the animals entered the ark. The words are, "went in two and two to Noah into the ark" which means they went 'toward' Noah 'into' the ark. You are reading the passage to say, "went in two and two 'into' Noah 'into' the ark" which makes no sense. It's just saying the animals entered the ark not that Noah was in the ark 7 days early awaiting the flood. Practically the only way for Noah to cut out 7 clean beasts of every kind was to do it outside the ark then herd the selected beasts into the ark. So God brought the animals 'to' Noah, then 'into' the ark. A rancher loads animals into a truck from outside, he doesn't get in the truck to load the animals, for Pete's sake.

But then you ignore this:

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;"

This is a direct statement of fact that Noah entered the ark on the same day the fountains of the great deep were broken up and the windows of heaven opened. Here's what you miss, imo.

Verses 1-4 are a thesis. They state the theme of the evidence that follows. The facts are presented in the body of the dissertation and the conclusion stated at the end in v, 23-24, an iteration of v 1-4. The one major fact you are missing is "In the selfsame day" as the flood began Noah and family embarked. The text does not say "the family of Noah all got aboard the same day", though that would be true. Scripture gives a specific day for the start of the flood then references that day as the day Noah and family got aboard. It's 'they embarked on the same day the food began' not 'they all left the same day'.

The question must be asked, "What 'selfsame day'?" There is only one. 600th year, second month, 17th day. If the text said, "Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark in the selfsame day;" I would agree with you. It does not and I do not.

The resolution is Noah had 7 days to find 7 clean beasts and birds from the vast menagerie of animals outside the ark. He did his job on time and entered the ark the same day wrath fell.

 

 

 

 

[The Light]

On 5/6/2020 at 5:56 AM, Diaste said:

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The 6th seal

And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind. The sky receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.

Then the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Here we see wrath is about to begin. It has not begun, but the nations see the sign of His coming and know wrath is imminent, hence the hiding and hoping to be buried in an avalanche.

 

Agreed.

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The 7th Trump

Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to You, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power

and have begun to reign. The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

 

 

When the 7th trumpet sounds the mystery of God is FINISHED.

Rev 10

⁷ But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The kingdoms of the this world is become the kingdoms of our Lord. JESUS HAS RETURNED. The mystery of God is finished. The story is over. THE END.

 

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Here wrath has come. That means the sign of the coming and wrath is in the 6th seal and wrath has come at the 7th. Rev 11:18 and Rev 6:17 is the same verb, 'erchomai' which is a personal arrival, 'I come, arrive'. So unless the Lord comes twice to bring wrath then the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur in coordination. 

 

As you said, "Here we see wrath is about to begin. It has not begun, but the nations see the sign of His coming and know wrath is imminent, hence the hiding and hoping to be buried in an avalanche."

So they see wrath is about to begin. It begins with the 1st trumpet. It ends with the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord.

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Also, if the trumps only occur after the seals are all opened then the wrath of God must be poured out during the trumps

Exactly, it is poured out during the 7 trumpets. At the 7th trumpet, the mystery of God is finished. The wrath of God is over.

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This cannot be as it's only the bowls that are called the wrath of God, by God himself.

Then why do they see the wrath getting ready to happen at the 6th seal?

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"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." - Rev 15

"Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." - Rev 16

Yeah, it's scripture so it has to be true.

 

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Likening seals or trumps to God's wrath is unbiblical.

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus and it ends the 70th week of Daniel, which began at the 1st seal. The trumps begin AND END the 1260 day wrath of God.

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If you are saying 'we know' the trumps only occur after all the seals are opened based on Rev 8 you'll have to do better. John says, "And I saw.." not, "Then after this..." Nor is there an indication in the text the trumps only sound beginning in Rev 8.

I know those trumpets do not sound until that 7th seal is opened.

Rev 8

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

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There is reason to believe the army in Joel 2 is this one,

"And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like to serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt." -Rev 9

"A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land [is] as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

The appearance of them [is] as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run." - Joel 2

 

The army in Joel 2 is the northern army, just like it says. We don't need to wonder what army is being talked about, it tells us in the scripture.

Joel 2

²⁰ But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

This is the same northern army that you see in Daniel 11 that ceases the daily sacrifice and 1290 days later, sets up the abomination of desolation. 

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And if that is the case, which it is, this is not the same army as depicted in Ezekiel 38-39.

 

Of course it's not the same army as the army of Ezekiel. The army of Ezekiel is led by Gog of the land of Magog. That happens after the 1000 years, exactly like the Word says.

Eze 38

1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

² Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Gog, Magog happens after the 1000 years, just like the Word says.

Rev 20

⁷ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

⁸ And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

The kingdoms of the this world is become the kingdoms of our Lord. JESUS HAS RETURNED. The mystery of God is finished. The story is over. THE END.

WRONG! There is no "return" at the 7th trumpet. His return is very clearly shown after the week has ended in chapter 19. He will come PRETRIB (pre the 7th seal that starts the trib) FOR His saints, and then come POSTTRIB WITH His saints as shown in Rev. 19.

(One day you will learn that prewrath theory is error from start to finish. I hope you learn it down here, and not up there.)

[The Light]

On 5/6/2020 at 5:56 AM, Diaste said:

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And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was on the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. - Gen 7:6-7

You are taking things out of context. What you are looking at in Genesis 7 is the story of Noah told 3 DIFFERENT TIMES. It's the same story told 3 different times with different details. You are taking the end of one story (the flood waters were upon the earth) and then combining that ending with the beginning of the next version of the story. Here is story one.

Gen 7

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

² Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

³ Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

⁴ For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

⁵ And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

⁶ And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.

So Noah went into the ark and was told that seven days later it would flood, which we see in verse 6. End of story. Do you want to see the story again with some different details. Okay, here. Here is story 2, it's just another version of story 1.

Gen 7

⁷ And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

⁸ Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

¹¹ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

¹² And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

There you go, same story, different details. Noah went into the ark,  and 7 days later the flood was upon the earth. End of Story. You want to see the story again.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

¹⁵ And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

¹⁶ And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.

¹⁷ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

There you go, same story, different details. This time the story tells you Noah went in, and on the same day so did His family and all the animals. That lets you know that it didn't take Noah 7 days to load the ark. You are also not told that it floods 7 days later in this version. It's just the same story with different details.

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Here it literally says Noah was already in the ark and the waters were upon the earth,  "And Noah went in....because of the waters of the flood." He was in the ark BECAUSE OF THE WATERS OF THE FLOOD

You probably should rethink that. So if the scripture said,  "And Noah built the ark because of the waters of the flood" Does that mean Noah was building the ark as the flood started? I don't think so. How do we know for sure that the flood did not begin the same day Noah entered the ark? Easy, Gen 7 ¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. So Noah went into the ark, because of the waters of the flood and it came to pass after 7 days that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. So case closed on that argument.

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, not because 7 days is symbolic of a 7 year pretrib frolic in the heavenlies.

God says what He says, for a reason. And He said Noah, his family and all the animals were in the ark 7 days before the flood. If you think that's not important, that's fine. I know it's important, just as I know there is a 7 day wedding feast, when the bridegroom returns, at a time the bride does not know. Just as I know that the groom pays the price and then leaves to return to His fathers house to prepare a place. You might not think that's important, but Jesus seemed to.

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But what about verse 1? How is it that Noah waited until v 7 to enter the ark when God already commanded him to enter the ark in v 1?

Well, you see, (hopefully) Noah did not wait until verse 7 to enter the ark. What does 5 say? Gen 7 ⁵ And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him. We see that Noah did as the Lord instructed in verse 5. He did not wait until verse 7 to enter the ark. What you are looking at in verse 7 is another version of the same story. The 1st version is over when the flood comes. Then we get another version with a few different details. Case closed on that.

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Not asking, pointing out the contradiction in the idea you have.

Not answering, pointing out there is no contradiction in the facts.

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If you're going to say that Noah was already in the ark before the animals entered then it also  to be that Noah was in the ark before Noah gathered the animals,

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

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" Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens," Seriously, how did he find 7 clean beasts when he was confined to the ark?

How did Noah catch the birds and all the other animals? What about the dinosaurs? How did Noah gather all these animals? What did Noah do with all the animal poop on the ark? What about the flies? Probably having the plan and help of the creator of all things had a little bit to do with how things went down.

 

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Only now, after Noah is in the ark because of the flood, are the animals loaded?

Only now, after Noah built the ark because of the waters of the flood are the animals loaded? I think I covered these fallacies earlier.

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"And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were on the earth." Gen 7:10

So you are saying that Noah and the family went in to the ark because of the flood 7 days before the flood occurred?

 

I'm saying that Noah did as he was instructed. God told him to enter and it came to pass after 7 days that the flood waters were upon the earth.

Are you saying that Noah did not build the ark because of the waters of the flood?

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And that the animals were loaded during the flood? The text clearly says Noah was in the ark "...because of the waters..." after which then the animals would have entered while the flood was occurring.

Already covered, water tight case, no pun intended.

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What's being conveyed is the animals are going in to the ark for 7 days and after that 7 days the flood came.

No that's not what is being conveyed. The animals did not load for 7 days. Noah, his family and all the animals loaded on the selfsame day, that means that they all entered in the same ONE day.

Here is the verse. ¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Maybe you would understand it better if it was written like this: And Noah entered the ark and in the selfsame day Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark; ¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

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That word 'to' that you insist means Noah had to be in the ark does not convey that idea. The preposition 'el' certainly means 'into' but it's ludicrous to interpret the passage to say the animals went 'into Noah' when the animals entered the ark. The words are, "went in two and two to Noah into the ark" which means they went 'toward' Noah 'into' the ark. You are reading the passage to say, "went in two and two 'into' Noah 'into' the ark" which makes no sense. It's just saying the animals entered the ark not that Noah was in the ark 7 days early awaiting the flood.

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

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Practically the only way for Noah to cut out 7 clean beasts of every kind was to do it outside the ark then herd the selected beasts into the ark. So God brought the animals 'to' Noah, then 'into' the ark. A rancher loads animals into a truck from outside, he doesn't get in the truck to load the animals, for Pete's sake.

A rancher does not have Gods plan and help, Heavens to Betsy.

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark

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But then you ignore this:

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;"

 

I am ignoring nothing. I am realizing that there is three different versions the same story. The versions have different details of the same story. And all three show that Noah enters the ark and then the flood comes. You are grabbing part of the second version and merging into the 3rd version. You are quick to say that Noah entered when the flood comes but what the Word says is:

¹¹ In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

The flood happens on the same day that Noah turns 600. Then, you are the one doing the ignoring. You ignore that we see the end of the story. It rained 40 days and 40 nights. Story over. Want to see another version? Keep reading after it rains for forty days and nights. You will see Noah enter the ark and it's going to flood again. Do you think there are 3 different floods?

¹² And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

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This is a direct statement of fact that Noah entered the ark on the same day the fountains of the great deep were broken up and the windows of heaven opened. Here's what you miss, imo.

I have showed why this is wrong several times.
 

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Verses 1-4 are a thesis. They state the theme of the evidence that follows. The facts are presented in the body of the dissertation and the conclusion stated at the end in v, 23-24, an iteration of v 1-4. The one major fact you are missing is "In the selfsame day" as the flood began Noah and family embarked. The text does not say "the family of Noah all got aboard the same day", though that would be true. Scripture gives a specific day for the start of the flood then references that day as the day Noah and family got aboard. It's 'they embarked on the same day the food began' not 'they all left the same day'.

The question must be asked, "What 'selfsame day'?" There is only one. 600th year, second month, 17th day. If the text said, "Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark in the selfsame day;" I would agree with you. It does not and I do not.

 

As I said and showed you earlier. There are 3 different versions of the same story. Each version has different details. But each version has Noah entering the ark and then the story concludes with the flood waters upon the earth. You are grabbing the end of one version, the flood waters are upon the earth and an merging it into another version where Noah enters the ark. I'm not sure why you can't understand this.

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The resolution is Noah had 7 days to find 7 clean beasts and birds from the vast menagerie of animals outside the ark. He did his job on time and entered the ark the same day wrath fell.

This verse proves that Noah, his family and all the animals entered the ark in ONE DAY. That day was the day he was instructed to enter. And it came to pass after 7 days that the flood waters were upon the earth.

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

I've addressed every problem that you brought up. Everything points to the FACT that Noah was in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood, even as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel, before the wrath of God begins.

 

 

 

[The Light]

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

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WRONG! There is no "return" at the 7th trumpet.

Well, the mystery of God is finished when the 7th trumpet begins to blow and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. That what happens when the Lord returns. If you are not sure about the Lord returning them, why not read what the 7 thunders have to say?

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His return is very clearly shown after the week has ended in chapter 19

Yeah, and we can see the return at the end of Chapter 11. And we can see the return at the end of chapter 14 And we can see the return at the end of chapter 16.

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. He will come PRETRIB (pre the 7th seal that starts the trib)

Pretrib is before the seals are opened which is why we see the Church in heaven in Rev 5.

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FOR His saints, and then come POSTTRIB WITH His saints as shown in Rev. 19.

Post trib is pre wrath which occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus returns. He will come prewrath immediately after the tribulation of those days.

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(One day you will learn that prewrath theory is error from start to finish.

The prewrath theory is in error as it is not the Church being raptured in the prewrath coming of Jesus. It is the 12 tribes that are across the earth. The nation of Israel will remain on earth during Gods wrath in a place of protection.

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I hope you learn it down here, and not up there.)

I'm pretty sure I am good on this. I really don't expect you to get it as this has been talked about for centuries and few get it. I am following what you are saying, crystal clear and understand why it is wrong. But thanks for the kind words. I hope you reread what I said about Genesis 7 so you can gain an understanding what is happening in Revelation.

 

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, The Light said:

WRONG! There is no "return" at the 7th trumpet.

Well, the mystery of God is finished when the 7th trumpet begins to blow and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord. That what happens when the Lord returns. If you are not sure about the Lord returning them, why not read what the 7 thunders have to say?

Light, have you ever bought a house? Have you ever been to a "closing?" It is a LEGAL transaction where property changes from one owner to another. There is no "physical possession" at that time: but keys are handed over to possession can take place later. 

At the 7th seal only the LEGAL "closing" takes place. It is only imagination that Jesus returns to earth then.

If you can read the 7 thunders, by all means tell us!

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, The Light said:

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His return is very clearly shown after the week has ended in chapter 19

Yeah, and we can see the return at the end of Chapter 11. And we can see the return at the end of chapter 14 And we can see the return at the end of chapter 16.

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. He will come PRETRIB (pre the 7th seal that starts the trib)

Pretrib is before the seals are opened which is why we see the Church in heaven in Rev 5.

NO return at the end of chapter 11. This is myth and human reasoning. 

You are simply mistaken, making human reasoning far above what is actually written. 
You are mistaken in chapter 5. Yes, "elders" are there, but there is no proof they are the raptured church or even to represent the raptured church. Nice try.

The raptured church IS SEEN in chapter 7.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

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NO return at the end of chapter 11. This is myth and human reasoning. 

Well the mystery of God is FINISHED when the 7th Angel begins to sound and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our Lord.  It sound like Jesus has returned. Look at what the 7 thunders say.

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You are simply mistaken, making human reasoning far above what is actually written.

Got any scriptural proof besides an opinion. I've already provided my scriptural proof.

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You are mistaken in chapter 5. Yes, "elders" are there, but there is no proof they are the raptured church or even to represent the raptured church.

As usual, I'll just let the scripture speak for itself

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

If there were only 28 kindreds and tongues and people and nations, then, and only then, would your point be valid. Since there are obviously more than 28 kindred's and tongues and people and nations, we know that the 24 elders are speaking for others. No magic, no imagination, no audible voice, no dream, just scripture.

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Nice try.

There is no trying. There is only doing and not doing. And I did.

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The raptured church IS SEEN in chapter 7.

Yes they are, along with the 12 twelve tribes and others.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, The Light said:

You are mistaken in chapter 5. Yes, "elders" are there, but there is no proof they are the raptured church or even to represent the raptured church.

As usual, I'll just let the scripture speak for itself

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

If there were only 28 kindreds and tongues and people and nations, then, and only then, would your point be valid. Since there are obviously more than 28 kindred's and tongues and people and nations, we know that the 24 elders are speaking for others. No magic, no imagination, no audible voice, no dream, just scripture.

You need to do more research before being so positive you are right.  First off, this verse INCLUDES the four Beasts! Did God redeem the four beasts? Were they fallen and needed redemption? You really should no better than this. 

New International Version
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

New Living Translation
And they sang a new song with these words: “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

English Standard Version
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Berean Study Bible
And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Berean Literal Bible
And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain, and You purchased to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

New American Standard Bible
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Contemporary English Version
Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Good News Translation
They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to break open its seals. For you were killed, and by your sacrificial death you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

International Standard Version
They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

NET Bible
They were singing a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed, and at the cost of your own blood you have purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then they sang a new song, "You deserve to take the scroll and open the seals on it, because you were slaughtered. You bought people with your blood to be God's own. They are from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

New American Standard 1977
And they sang a new song, saying, “ Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

American Standard Version
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Darby Bible Translation
And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

English Revised Version
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Weymouth New Testament
And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation,

 

All these translations make FAR more sense, because then the 4 Beasts are not fallen and needed redemption. 

Therefore this chapter is no proof at all of a rapture before chapter 5.

Of course, if you believe it, it must be truth: now that I understand.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by iamlamad

[The Light]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

You need to do more research before being so positive you are right.  First off, this verse INCLUDES the four Beasts! Did God redeem the four beasts? Were they fallen and needed redemption? You really should no better than this. 

New International Version
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

New Living Translation
And they sang a new song with these words: “You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

English Standard Version
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Berean Study Bible
And they sang a new song: “Worthy are You to take the scroll and open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood You purchased for God those from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Berean Literal Bible
And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain, and You purchased to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

New American Standard Bible
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slaughtered, and you purchased people for God by your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

Contemporary English Version
Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Good News Translation
They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to break open its seals. For you were killed, and by your sacrificial death you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

International Standard Version
They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

NET Bible
They were singing a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed, and at the cost of your own blood you have purchased for God persons from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Then they sang a new song, "You deserve to take the scroll and open the seals on it, because you were slaughtered. You bought people with your blood to be God's own. They are from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

New American Standard 1977
And they sang a new song, saying, “ Worthy art Thou to take the book, and to break its seals; for Thou wast slain, and didst purchase for God with Thy blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

American Standard Version
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Darby Bible Translation
And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

English Revised Version
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

Weymouth New Testament
And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation,

 

All these translations make FAR more sense, because then the 4 Beasts are not fallen and needed redemption. 

Therefore this chapter is no proof at all of a rapture before chapter 5.

Of course, if you believe it, it must be truth: now that I understand.

 

 

I think the verse speaks for itself.