PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

[Robert_Ohio]

I have a question DeaconBob3.  If you are wrong and there is not a pre trib rapture, what will it do to your faith?  When you see that the trib is here will the shock of it have any affect on your ability to deal with it. (that is assuming that the pretrib does not happen).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since we are talking hypothetically, my response to there not being a pre-trib rapture would be that I misunderstood something. It is always possible to for us to misinterpret. Individually, we can misunderstand the leadings of the Holy Spirit.

I stated my beliefs, If I end up being wrong that is my error in understanding. God is still God and He is still in charge and Jesus is Lord of my life now and forevermore.

[Remnantrob]

If it is possible there is a trumpet that ends the church age then it is POSSIBLE that there is really a Pre-tribulation rapture. The 10 most knowledgable bible theologians all agree that there is a pre-trib rapture. The ten most noted evangelists all believe that there is a pre-trib rapture. I believe there is a going to be a pre-trib rapture and I am watching preparing and waiting for it.

Who are these guys and are their titles most knowledgable and most noted?

If so when were the elections held because i wasn't notified?

[Guest eponine]

"The 10 most knowledgable bible theologians all agree that there is a pre-trib rapture. The ten most noted evangelists all believe that there is a pre-trib rapture."

I was wondering about this statement myself. Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote feature. That is a very strong statement to make, and a very easy one if you do not qualify it. Please tell us who these guys are, and in whose opinion are they the "most noted" and "most knowledgeable." I can think of many theologians who were post-trib (often a-mil as well). Piper, Edwards, Greudem, Calvin, just to name a few.

Why do you assume there are more than one last trumpets? Your example of 2 trumpets, deacon, does not prove anything. Were they together called "last"? Both you and Halifax say "maybe" or "possibly" there is a separate one to end the church age, but can you prove that?

Deacon, your point from Rev. 5:11 makes no sense to me. In 5:9-10 it is the 4 creatures and the elders singing about Christ saving people. Verse 11 adds the angels into the singing which is clearly different. "Saying with a loud voice, 'Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth...' "(v. 12) How can you say these are saints when the Bible specifically says "angels"?

As for Rev. 22:8-9, my version (ESV) says, "I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets." That makes it clear that the ANGEL is saying he is a servant of God just like John and the prophets. Even with the KJ "of" the angel is saying he is a fellowservant of the prophets, not a fellow human. Your interpretation of these verses is very flawed. You cannot prove that these are saints rather than angels.

"What I do know is this...the Bible says that the saints will be killed during the tribulation period and the Lord will revenge their blood at His return. My question is this, and still not answered... who is going to be raptured if everyone is already killed? The post-trib rapture theory just doesn't make any sense. If we reject the mark of the beast and die for Jesus, we won't be around long enough to be raptured. What do you think?"

Halifax, what passage are you referring to? Are you sure it says that ALL the saints will be killed? To answer your question about who will be left, consider Jesus' statement in Matt. 24:15-28. I would type it out, but that takes awhile. Jesus instructs believers to flee when they know the tribulation is upon them. Yes, many will be killed for not taking the mark, but many may hide until it is over. Probably not a large number. Not many will "endure until the end." But it is possible for Christians to hide where the antichrist's government will not find them. Just think how hard it is to find certain terrorists in one small middle-eastern country.

Anyway, I am interested to see your resoponses, both deacon and halifax.

[halifaxchristian]

Why can't any post-tribber answer the simple question? Who will be around to be raptured? I, for one, would be in heaven with no head (you get my point) at the "last trump" before Christ's return and I should hope that you would be too. If you are here on earth for the post-trib rapture, you'd better be Jewish...or else you shouldn't be here my friend!!!

God bless.

[Guest eponine]

I just answered your question! Those who follow Jesus' instruction to flee!

[halifaxchristian]

I just answered your question!  Those who follow Jesus' instruction to flee!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Clearly Jesus' command to flee was in reference to the Jews, Revelation 12:6 is in direct relation. Please read it. Revelation 13:7,8 says:

"And it was given unto him (Satan) to MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, AND TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS. And ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH shall worship him, whose names are NOT WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAMB..."

Sorry, must get to bed now.

God bless.

(I'm not a weirdo really...I work nights!!! )

[Remnantrob]

are you saying the last people here on earth are gonna be jewish only? This question is for halifaxchristian

[apothanein kerdos]

He is not. You mentioned Noah. Noah was God

[Guest eponine]

Clearly Jesus' command to flee was in reference to the Jews, Revelation 12:6 is in direct relation.

Please read it.

Edited July 27, 2005 by eponine

[halifaxchristian]

As for Revelation 12:17, notice the statement "the REMNANT OF HER SEED". This whole chapter is about Israel. Even the NT backs this up, see Romans 9:27. Jewish believers will be protected during the Tribulation, and this is in accord with the Bible as a whole. About Revelation 13, let's rightly divide the Word. We are told previously (ch.12) that the "Woman" will be saved. God's chosen people are not considered a part of the "all" here. Common sense says that much. However, John's Revelation makes it very clear that all Gentile saints will have to die. The only arguement a post-tribber can make is that the rapture will be Jews only. But what about the Scriptures that say, "And they shall look upon Him whom they have pierced? (paraphrasing)". God bless you.

Edited July 27, 2005 by halifaxchristian