Salvation...Can it be lost???

[Kabowd]

That is why I decided some time back to simply read and re-read the Bible for myself and come to my own conclusions without their influences. That is why it is unlikely you will find anyone in agreement with me all of the time. My views will at times be in agreement with a conservative Baptist, and at other times will line up with a Pentecostal. I may indeed have biases, but I have tried to come to whatever conclusions I have on my own.

This is why so many people are having a hard time accepting what is being taught from the scriptures, they are relying on what certain faiths, books, commentaries, etc. teach them rather than the good old fashion bible.

Take infant baptism. You will never find a scripture, commandment, or example in the bible of this. To teach anything that is not in ther bible is "Heresy", to not teach anything that is in the bible is "Heresy".

*sigh*

I'd rather trust an educated person than a "spirit filled" fool. People ignoring creeds, historical interpretations, etc is what has given rise to cults, false doctrines, and a watered down gospel.

They don't have much to offer to truth when they contradict each other. The bible will never contradict itsself. If you rely on that with the faith of Christ and the direction of the Holy Spirit you will never go wrong.

And people who "rely on the Holy Spirit" never contradict eachother? Yeah, that's what people like Jim Jones, Joseph Smith and David Koresh taught too. Good luck with that.

[apothanein kerdos]

That is why I decided some time back to simply read and re-read the Bible for myself and come to my own conclusions without their influences. That is why it is unlikely you will find anyone in agreement with me all of the time. My views will at times be in agreement with a conservative Baptist, and at other times will line up with a Pentecostal. I may indeed have biases, but I have tried to come to whatever conclusions I have on my own.

This is why so many people are having a hard time accepting what is being taught from the scriptures, they are relying on what certain faiths, books, commentaries, etc. teach them rather than the good old fashion bible.

Take infant baptism. You will never find a scripture, commandment, or example in the bible of this. To teach anything that is not in ther bible is "Heresy", to not teach anything that is in the bible is "Heresy".

*sigh*

I'd rather trust an educated person than a "spirit filled" fool. People ignoring creeds, historical interpretations, etc is what has given rise to cults, false doctrines, and a watered down gospel.

They don't have much to offer to truth when they contradict each other. The bible will never contradict itsself. If you rely on that with the faith of Christ and the direction of the Holy Spirit you will never go wrong.

And people who "rely on the Holy Spirit" never contradict eachother? Yeah, that's what people like Jim Jones, Joseph Smith and David Koresh taught too. Good luck with that.

Yeah, what she said

[apothanein kerdos]

You missed the point Burt. ANy fool can claim the "spirit" is guiding them....but only a true child of God can prove it. The Holy Spirit works in part through education, the very thing you despise

Ironic that to find a supporter you had to turn to the person who believes we are born without sin.

[apothanein kerdos]

You're asserting that all of Christian history, from the founders, scripture, and even the reformers....are wrong for advocating looking outside of scripture to help increase in education?

DO you not realize that you are actually falling into some of the early Christian heresies by asserting such an absurd notion? A person who studies scripture and scripture alone (with no Greek or historical background) does little to benefit themselves.

[apothanein kerdos]

You're asserting that all of Christian history, from the founders, scripture, and even the reformers....are wrong for advocating looking outside of scripture to help increase in education?

DO you not realize that you are actually falling into some of the early Christian heresies by asserting such an absurd notion? A person who studies scripture and scripture alone (with no Greek or historical background) does little to benefit themselves.

Romans 10:17 "So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Psalm 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart: that I might not sin against thee."

Psalm 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet: and a light unto my path."

It sounds to me like studying scripture is of a great benefit.

I never advocated otherwise....nor do any of the early heretics. What I advocated is that if you study scripture alone, and do not study the history within scripture, the context of the scripture, or the language it was written in...you're not going to get a complete view of it.

Ever heard of Marcion? You and him would get along famously in that he agreed with EXACTLY what you're preaching.

[apothanein kerdos]

You're asserting that all of Christian history, from the founders, scripture, and even the reformers....are wrong for advocating looking outside of scripture to help increase in education?

DO you not realize that you are actually falling into some of the early Christian heresies by asserting such an absurd notion? A person who studies scripture and scripture alone (with no Greek or historical background) does little to benefit themselves.

Romans 10:17 "So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Psalm 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart: that I might not sin against thee."

Psalm 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet: and a light unto my path."

It sounds to me like studying scripture is of a great benefit.

I never advocated otherwise....nor do any of the early heretics. What I advocated is that if you study scripture alone, and do not study the history within scripture, the context of the scripture, or the language it was written in...you're not going to get a complete view of it.

Ever heard of Marcion? You and him would get along famously in that he agreed with EXACTLY what you're preaching.

Marcion didn't believe the God of the Old Testament was the true God. I do. He also created his own cannon consisting of books not accepted as scripture by the Christian Church. I do not. I only accept the 66 books that make up the cannon as authoritative. Marcion was of the gnostic sect and I am not. I know we would not get along famously as you have said.

Since you are educated, and I am sure you probably know far more about Marcion than I do, you know my beliefs and his are not similiar in the least.

Thank you for proving my point that education on history helps.

[apothanein kerdos]

You're asserting that all of Christian history, from the founders, scripture, and even the reformers....are wrong for advocating looking outside of scripture to help increase in education?

DO you not realize that you are actually falling into some of the early Christian heresies by asserting such an absurd notion? A person who studies scripture and scripture alone (with no Greek or historical background) does little to benefit themselves.

Romans 10:17 "So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Psalm 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart: that I might not sin against thee."

Psalm 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet: and a light unto my path."

It sounds to me like studying scripture is of a great benefit.

I never advocated otherwise....nor do any of the early heretics. What I advocated is that if you study scripture alone, and do not study the history within scripture, the context of the scripture, or the language it was written in...you're not going to get a complete view of it.

Ever heard of Marcion? You and him would get along famously in that he agreed with EXACTLY what you're preaching.

Marcion didn't believe the God of the Old Testament was the true God. I do. He also created his own cannon consisting of books not accepted as scripture by the Christian Church. I do not. I only accept the 66 books that make up the cannon as authoritative. Marcion was of the gnostic sect and I am not. I know we would not get along famously as you have said.

Since you are educated, and I am sure you probably know far more about Marcion than I do, you know my beliefs and his are not similiar in the least.

Thank you for proving my point that education on history helps.

Since you never bothered to respond to my question, I will offer this link:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/marcion.html

It will confirm what I just said about the teachings of Marcion.

Again, thank you for proving my point.

[Guest shiloh357]

I never advocated otherwise....nor do any of the early heretics. What I advocated is that if you study scripture alone, and do not study the history within scripture, the context of the scripture, or the language it was written in...you're not going to get a complete view of it.

Ever heard of Marcion? You and him would get along famously in that he agreed with EXACTLY what you're preaching.

I agree with you completely in the fact that you will need to know some ancient history to understand some things. I am speaking of using other people's commentaries which are their interpretations of the scriptures.

Oh really... and everything you said here was what???? It has been YOUR interpretation.

What I have noticed in the last five or six pages is a lot of intellectual dishonesty. Actually, I have seen it since I have been involved on this thread. It is so silly to see people poo-poo commentaries, lexicons, dictionaries and other study aids because they are "the interpretation of man." It is both sad and somewhat humorous to see such sanctimonious bull corn.

Not one person on this thread can claim that their belief system is directly from God and has not at any time been flavored by the doctrinal position of the Church they attend, by the Pastors or other spiritual instructors they have sat under. Everyone has read books or heard teachings that have helped them form the theological position they now possess. Every person's theology is the product of their spiritual environment and the human instruction they have received.

What is so completely (Edited by Moderator) is that they pretend that, "I am just saying what the Bible says, and if you reject what I say, you are rejecting the Bible." That is pile of tripe. One of the reasons that biblical cults are so successful is cause they are built upon people who rejected learning, education as being "fleshly." They claim that they possess the true, pure teaching of the Scriptures, without bias.

It is the same (edited by Moderator) argument that cardcaptor and others use on these boards. If I or anyone disagrees with them, well then we are rejecting the Bible, or we are ignoring the Scriptures, or some other tummy rot they can come up with.

Slapping someone down because they defer to a commentary that explains a point in an effective manner, is just a smokescreen for the person's inability to refute or answer the point. It amounts to deflecting attention away from their inability to come up with an intelligent, reasoned, well-thought-out response, by trying to delegitimize the use of wisdom imparted to learned men.

OK... Now back to the topic.

[Smalcald]

"Not one person on this thread can claim that their belief system is directly from God and has not at any time been flavored by the doctrinal position of the Church they attend, by the Pastors or other spiritual instructors they have sat under. Everyone has read books or heard teachings that have helped them form the theological position they now possess. Every person's theology is the product of their spiritual environment and the human instruction they have received."

"What is so completely (Edited by Moderator) is that they pretend that, "I am just saying what the Bible says, and if you reject what I say, you are rejecting the Bible." That is pile of tripe. One of the reasons that biblical cults are so successful is cause they are built upon people who rejected learning, education as being "fleshly." They claim that they possess the true, pure teaching of the Scriptures, without bias."

Good points Shilo.

This type of thing drives me crazy, the idea that if someone disagrees with me they are rejecting the bible.

[Kabowd]

I never advocated otherwise....nor do any of the early heretics. What I advocated is that if you study scripture alone, and do not study the history within scripture, the context of the scripture, or the language it was written in...you're not going to get a complete view of it.

Ever heard of Marcion? You and him would get along famously in that he agreed with EXACTLY what you're preaching.

I agree with you completely in the fact that you will need to know some ancient history to understand some things. I am speaking of using other people's commentaries which are their interpretations of the scriptures.

Oh really... and everything you said here was what???? It has been YOUR interpretation.

What I have noticed in the last five or six pages is a lot of intellectual dishonesty. Actually, I have seen it since I have been involved on this thread. It is so silly to see people poo-poo commentaries, lexicons, dictionaries and other study aids because they are "the interpretation of man." It is both sad and somewhat humorous to see such sanctimonious bull corn.

Not one person on this thread can claim that their belief system is directly from God and has not at any time been flavored by the doctrinal position of the Church they attend, by the Pastors or other spiritual instructors they have sat under. Everyone has read books or heard teachings that have helped them form the theological position they now possess. Every person's theology is the product of their spiritual environment and the human instruction they have received.

What is so completely (Edited by Moderator) is that they pretend that, "I am just saying what the Bible says, and if you reject what I say, you are rejecting the Bible." That is pile of tripe. One of the reasons that biblical cults are so successful is cause they are built upon people who rejected learning, education as being "fleshly." They claim that they possess the true, pure teaching of the Scriptures, without bias.

It is the same (edited by Moderator) argument that cardcaptor and others use on these boards. If I or anyone disagrees with them, well then we are rejecting the Bible, or we are ignoring the Scriptures, or some other tummy rot they can come up with.

Slapping someone down because they defer to a commentary that explains a point in an effective manner, is just a smokescreen for the person's inability to refute or answer the point. It amounts to deflecting attention away from their inability to come up with an intelligent, reasoned, well-thought-out response, by trying to delegitimize the use of wisdom imparted to learned men.

OK... Now back to the topic.

Amen!! The things that cardcaptor and Burtero are advocating reveals the EXACT mentality that has led to heresy, cults and false doctrine. Thanks for your input shiloh!