Mary Was Just A Woman

[halifaxchristian]

Halifax,

As far as marriage goes the Word of God claims that it is better for ministers of the Word to not be married the RCC simply takes Paul's advice.

They are partially wrong on the point, as Paul of course allows marriage in ministers, Bishops, elder

[Smalcald]

Well I agree and disagree.

I agree in that the guidance, standard and norms for all followers of Christ has only one source, Holy Scripture. Furthermore only faith in Christ and His grace saves us, not any human ceremonies, liturgies, rules, or in particular any human organizations. To the degree that the Catholic Church takes away from faith in Christ it is in trouble.

But I disagree in that I don't find the doctrines of the RCC as evil or necessarily taking all of its adherents away from Christ. I find some of them wrong, and I find some of them very much based in scripture.

But the bottom line is the Catholic Church confesses the Triune God, confesses Christ as the only Lord and Savior and way to salvation. As long as they continue to hold to the universal Creeds as true they will be doing that.

I do think there are many many disaffected Catholics who are looking for a real connection to Christ, and that means we should preach the Word to them and to all.

[halifaxchristian]

Well I agree and disagree.

I agree in that the guidance, standard and norms for all followers of Christ has only one source, Holy Scripture. Furthermore only faith in Christ and His grace saves us, not any human ceremonies, liturgies, rules, or in particular any human organizations.  To the degree that the Catholic Church takes away from faith in Christ it is in trouble.

But I disagree in that I don't find the doctrines of the RCC as evil or necessarily taking all of its adherents away from Christ.  I find some of them wrong, and I find some of them very much based in scripture.

But the bottom line is the Catholic Church confesses the Triune God, confesses Christ as the only Lord and Savior and way to salvation.  As long as they continue to hold to the universal Creeds as true they will be doing that.

I do think there are many many disaffected Catholics who are looking for a real connection to Christ, and that means we should preach the Word to them and to all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember that the Catholic (which means Universal) Church of Rome only came into being for one reason: the Roman Empire COULD NOT STOP CHRISTIANITY. So what do you do when you can't stop the Triune God, when you can't stop Jesus as being Lord, when you can't stop the Truths of the Word? You accept it. You accept it, IN THEORY, and you disguise it with traditions and paganistic doctrines rather than fight against it openly. It's the only way to go. Don't deny the Trinity, Christ, and the Bible...you can't defeat it. Satan knows this. He is not stupid.

So what does Satan do? He tells the people that only the priests can forgive their sins, interpret the Bible, sacrifice "Christ" in the mass, and approve their indulgences for a shorter stay in purgatory. Of course, "Mary" (should I say Fatima, Diana or Venus instead?) can now hear their prayers and intercede for them because Jesus is so angry right? I could go on and on.

Get my drift???

[apothanein kerdos]

You need To understand Apostolic tradition before i can reason any further with you.

I know more about the Roman Catholic faith than most Roman Catholics, so don't act like I'm ignorant to it. I dare say I know more about your own faith than you do.

Also, you can't type something unless you plagarize it. THis is the 6th time I've caught you. This is why your reply doesn't answer my question at all. First, it is explaining why Jesus condemned the Pharisees tradition. Secondly, it's in defense of Baptism (which you left out). So you have yet to answer the question and in the process stripped yourself of the little honor you had left.

It is now 30 AD. Jesus is beginning His ministry and choosing His disciples. The Jewish people in Palestine have the Torah, or the Law of Moses, the collected works of the Prophets, and the Hagiographa, or the remaining books of the Old Testament. This collection includes the Deuterocanonical books of the Greek Septuagint, including Maccabees, Judith, Baruch, etc.

The Greek Septuagint was for hellenisitc Jews living outside of Palestine. It was, for all intents and purposes, rejected en masse by the Palestinian Jews for good reason. For one, it allowed a Greek paradigm to infiltrate the Holy Writ (this is par tof the problem with Christianity). Secondly it included books that most Jews who were studied in scripture did not find worthy of scripture. They were considered "lesser" books, books worthy reading but not of the scriptural level. This was based on how consistent they were with the Torah, and the fact is, they simply aren't consistent.

This is corrupt Pharisaic tradition, which Jesus rightly condemns. He is not condemning all tradition, however; and He is certainly not condemning Christian tradition, because Christian tradition is still in the process of being formed.

Jesus condemned the Pharisaic tradition because it violated the Torah. It went against scripture. This set a presidence for tradition, something that I am not condemning. If tradition and scripture go against each other then scripture must prevail. Scripture has the final say on tradition. This is what Jesus was upset about. THis is also the same condemnation for Roman Catholic tradition in that it contradicts scripture. It is not so much an issue that it can't be found in scripture, but that so much of it contradicts what scripture teaches. This is why when the early gnostics made claim to Apoloslistic tradition the early fathers had to turn to sccipture (like Irenaeus).

Now it's 33 AD. Jesus ascends to Heaven, and the Holy Spirit descends at Pentecost. The Apostles are enabled to remember everything that Jesus has taught them. This collective rememberance of His teachings constitutes Apostolic Tradition, and is the main body of the Deposit of the Christian Faith. There is no Christian Bible. It has not been written yet. There are no epistles, there are no Gospels, there are no Christian writings of any kind. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. The Apostles spread Jesus teachings by word of mouth. People remember what the Apostles have taught them and repeat it orally, much like the oral bardic systems in northern Europe.

You're trying to defend tradition when no one attacked it. What is being attacked is that certain traditions violate scripture, and in these instances, scripture is always right.

As time goes on, these Apostolic writings are copied and passed around to various churches. Already knowing the oral teachings which they received first (Apostolic Tradition), the people in these churches naturally enough understand these writings in light of that primary oral source. Some churches have copies of some Christian books, but not others. It takes about three hundred years for the full collection to be gathered and sorted out---some books, such as the Gosple of Peter and the Acts of Pontius Pilate are rejected, while other books, such as the Gospel of Mark and the Acts of the Apostles are retained.

This doesn't validate ROman Catholic tradition. For one it cuts the legs out from under it because it admits that all tradition was placed into writing. This would mean that all tradition post-writ would be invalid.

I don't believe this is the case, but I do believe if it contradicts scripture (as tradition teaches) then it is not valid. In fact, in the book of Acts we see that people were comparing what the Apostles said to the Torah, and this was considered a good thing. In other words, the Apostles were saying that their tradition could be backed up by scripture. So why is the Roman Catholic Church removed from this rule? Because it's

Once again, you avoid the question. WHy did the early church fathers appeal solely to scripture when fighting against the heretics?

[halifaxchristian]

Super Jew, you said...

Once again, you avoid the question. WHy did the early church fathers appeal solely to scripture when fighting against the heretics?

A Catholic cannot answer this question. He might give you a plagerized, rambling, incoherant response...but that's about it.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord is just too simple for some.

[Smalcald]

Well I agree and disagree.

I agree in that the guidance, standard and norms for all followers of Christ has only one source, Holy Scripture. Furthermore only faith in Christ and His grace saves us, not any human ceremonies, liturgies, rules, or in particular any human organizations.

[halifaxchristian]

Obviously Satan did not create our Churches... Catholicism (Universalism) started in appoximately 330 AD with Emperor Constantine. It still stands until this day. Throughout this period there has been TRUE CHRISTIANS. Remember when Elijah thought that he was the only person alive serving God? God told him that there were yet 7000 that had not bowed the knee to Baal. Let's not operate here under the assumptions that "Catholics" have been the only "Christians" during the Dark Ages. We got our KJV Bible from the Textus Receptus manuscripts, which WERE NOT GIVEN TO US BY THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH OF ROME. Let's thank the Waldenses, Bohemians, Albegenses, etc... While there were faithful Christians living and dying for Christ, and preserving His Word in caves and mountains, the Pope in Rome was hiding the Word of God from the masses and reading it to them in a tongue that was not their own. Wonderful method of edifying I must say (sarcastic). Need I go on...???

God bless you.

Edited July 28, 2005 by halifaxchristian

[apothanein kerdos]

Catholics cannot claim to be the only church. Prior to Constantine while all true Christians called themselves "Catholics" and agreed on the essentials, there were still disagreements on non-essentials and even how we obtain the essentials (i.e. salvation by faith, eternal security, etc). Post-Constantine we found that many who did not hold to the church doctrines were being killed off and put to the sword. Pagans that did not convert were put to the sword by the Roman Government. There always has been people that dissented from the Roman Catholic position, unfortunately because the RCC has controled history the history of these people has been highly distorted.

[Smalcald]

Well I think the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has often gotten very off track. But I don't see them or their teachings as a tool of Satan or inherently evil. Some are just plain wrong headed.

But in fact they are much more biblically based than some of the mainline Protestant denominations which are now marrying gays, ordaining women, denying the physical resurrection of Christ, preaching universal salvation, etc, the heresy in these churches would certainly put them in a category of Mystery Babylon as much as the Catholic Church.

[halifaxchristian]

Well I think the hierarchy of the Catholic Church has often gotten very off track. But I don't see them or their teachings as a tool of Satan or inherently evil. Some are just plain wrong headed.

But in fact they are much more biblically based than some of the mainline Protestant denominations which are now marrying gays, ordaining women, denying the physical resurrection of Christ, preaching universal salvation, etc, the heresy in these churches would certainly put them in a category of Mystery Babylon as much as the Catholic Church.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two wrongs don't make a right...and I never said they did.

Catholics and their defenders always like to use that arguement stategy...

"Hey, we can't be that bad...look at what they do too!"

How about we ALL just start looking at Jesus and not at each other.

I stand by my statements and I stand by the quote below me...