Mary Was Just A Woman

[halifaxchristian]

"We hold upon this earth the place of GOD ALMIGHTY."-Pope Leo XIII, from The Great Encylical Letter of Pope Leo, p.302, year 1903

"The Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as VICAR OF CHRIST, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and UNIVERSAL POWER OVER THE WHOLE CHURCH, a power which he can ALWAYS EXERCISE UNHINDERED."-Catechism of the Catholic Church, p.254, #882

Vicar: noun, a substitute in office

Vicar of Christ: a substitute Christ

"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR SALVATION of EVERY human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."-Pope Boniface Vlll, Bull Unun Sanctum, 1302

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH."-Satan, in Isaiah 14:14

"And he opened his mouth in BLASPHEMY AGAINST GOD, TO BLASPHEME HIS NAME, AND HIS TABERNACLE...Power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP HIM whose names are not written in the Book of Life."-The Apostle John in Revelation 13:6-8, speaking of the Antichrist

"...If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there: BELIEVE IT NOT. For there shall arise FALSE CHRISTS...that, if it were possible...shall decieve the very elect."-Matthew 24:23,24

[halifaxchristian]

First, the Catholic Pope during the time of Hitler was wrong and was a horrible person. He didn't speak out against HItler until he was sure he wouldn't get killed for it.

However, this doesn't defeat the fact that many German Catholics hid Jews during the time of Hitler (Schindler being one of them). Many Catholics risked life and limb, and many died, to hide Jews. As did Protestants. Hitler himself wasn't really a Catholic. True aryan doctrine teaches that man has evolved without God being involved and in fact that the Aryan is superior due to nature, not God. Most Aryan's will claim a religion but hardly hold to it or its basic tennets. Should I condemn Martin Luther? His book, "OF Jews and their Lies" was quoted by Nazis. Martin Luther, a protestant, that encouraged the killing of Jews. So be careful where you point your finger.

So please, don't try to accuse the Catholic chruch of something not all of them are guilty of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember, I am not attacking CATHOLICS, but CATHOLICISM.

[Smalcald]

Well for me, the office of the Pope and that role is the most troublesome thing within Catholicism, and also I think the most opposed to the Church tradition it supposedly upholds.

There is no concept of a vicar of Christ in the bible obviously, but from an historical perspective there is no concept of that power within the entire eastern Church or Orthodox Church, this alone would argue against the basic idea of the Office of Pope being some sort of supreme Christian leader. The Eastern Orthodox have Bishops, which is scriptural, they allow priests to marry. Yet they hold to the sacraments. If the Pope had been an original historical concept the Eastern Church would have its own Office of the Pope.

The Pope being a leader is fine, the Pope being a teacher is fine, and in fact the Pope claiming spiritual authority over people in his church is fine. But the idea of claiming some sort of supreme special place among ALL men as a divine leader of all Christians speaking as an equal to the bible, is a big problem and error, and of course may lead to huge abuses. Now I don't think that means that an individual Pope is not a Christian or evil, but the Office itself I think is ripe for abuse.

Was Peter the first Pope? Certainly Jesus conferred some huge responsibilities on Peter, and this is the verse most Catholics use when speaking of their Churches authority and their Pope.

Mathew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying,

[apothanein kerdos]

"this rock" is reflective in the Greek. In other words, Jesus was talking about Himself

As for history, the Pope never really held that much power until Pope Leo turned away Atilla at the walls of Rome. Prior to that the Emperor held power in the church, as established by Constantine.

[halifaxchristian]

Well for me, the office of the Pope and that role is the most troublesome thing within Catholicism, and also I think the most opposed to the Church tradition it supposedly upholds.

There is no concept of a vicar of Christ in the bible obviously, but from an historical perspective there is no concept of that power within the entire eastern Church or Orthodox Church, this alone would argue against the basic idea of the Office of Pope being some sort of supreme Christian leader.  The Eastern Orthodox have Bishops, which is scriptural, they allow priests to marry. Yet they hold to the sacraments. If the Pope had been an original historical concept the Eastern Church would have its own Office of the Pope.

The Pope being a leader is fine, the Pope being a teacher is fine, and in fact the Pope claiming spiritual authority over people in his church is fine. But the idea of claiming some sort of supreme special place among ALL men as a divine leader of all Christians speaking as an equal to the bible, is a big problem and error, and of course may lead to huge abuses. Now I don't think that means that an individual Pope is not a Christian or evil, but the Office itself I think is ripe for abuse.

Was Peter the first Pope?  Certainly Jesus conferred some huge responsibilities on Peter, and this is the verse most Catholics use when speaking of their Churches authority and their Pope.

Mathew 16:

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying,

[halifaxchristian]

Must go to bed now. Good day fellows...talk to you tomorrow, Lord willing...

God bless!

[apothanein kerdos]

Forgot you were on the other side of the pond. No wonder you're going to bed

[Smalcald]

Jesus is our rock.

But in the verse in Mathew I posted, no Jesus was referring to Peter as the rock of the Church that Jesus founded; the paragraph is obviously saying that. I find it puts us in a much weaker situation when we reach to make our point. The verse obviously refers to Peter as the Rock of the Church in this context.

Now what is that Church? I think it is the universal Church of all true believers in Christ, Catholics believe it refers specifically to their sect of believers, which is why they claim Peter as the first Pope, and there is evidence he ended up in Rome before he died. But Peter defended the first Church, led the first believers, he fulfilled the role Christ gave him.

The more we reach out to the Catholic Church, the more we reform that Church. Catholics now read the bible; Catholics now talk about faith as a critical and necessary part of salvation. So I think the ongoing reformation continues.

We were told by Christ to be one. Yet we have not been, we have divided and divided and splintered. As Protestants we have done this continually, it has become a pride issue for us. Faith alone does not mean we are our own God's, our own leaders. Scripture guides us to be under the authority of other more elder Christians, to accept their knowledge of scripture not our own private ideas and interpretations. I know people who don't even go to Church because they can't find one that "fits" them, think of it, they are expecting the Church to fit them, when in fact they need to bow down and submit to the Church, instead they sit at home and listen to the radio or watch televangalists and think that is worship or makes them part of the Body of Christ, it does not. The reality is they simply cannot get along with anyone. We are commanded to worship together, to be under the authority of elders and bishops to be part of a church.

We can't all be right, God is not the God of division.

[apothanein kerdos]

Smalchild, it's reflective in the Greek. In the Greek it can only be taken to mean Jesus is speaking of Himself.

[halifaxchristian]

Smalcald, tell me why...Peter was married, refused to allow people to bow to him and give him undue honour and worship, did not forgive sins or claim this power once in Scripture, was the apostle to the Jews/not Gentiles, never once in the NT is said to reside in Rome, and obviously was not infallible and rebuked by Paul on at least one occassion???

Why does the Pope in Rome live richly, proudly, and recieve honour of men??? Why is he not the apostle to the Jews? Why does he not wash the disciples feet? Why is he not the one dying at the stake upside down and being fed to lions?

The last time I heard of a Pope dying...it was either an assassination by a Cardinal or friend, or because he slept with someone's wife...hardly a godly man I presume.

Oh yeah, and why is the present pope a Nazi? I suppose it's not really his fault I guess, some say that he was forced to fight (why didn't he refuse)? But that is not my concern. My concern is this:

Of all the people the Vatican had to choose to become the new pope...they JUST HAD TO PICK THE NAZI!!! Good sense of judgment those bishops and cardinals have don't they???