Eternal torment or eternal death

[OneLight]

5 hours ago, Butch5 said:

My understanding is that the body returns to the dust. The spirit which is really breath is not man and  returns to God. The Hebrew and Greek words that are translated breath or spirit, literally mean wind. That is the literal meaning. The English word spirit is a figurative useage of these Hebrew and Greek words. The confusion comes from the English definition of spirit. In English the word spirit has as a definition, a disembodied living being. This is probably the main meaning of the word spirit. However, the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated spirit have no such meaning. They mean wind. There is nothing about these words that means a disembodied living being. The Hebrew and Greek words are being used as a metaphor when they are translated spirit. Jesus gave a good description of this word in John 3.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

Jesus said the wind blows where it will and you hear it, but you can't tell where it comes from or where it goes. However, we can see the effects of the wind. It's the same way with angels and demons. They come and go, but you can't see where they come from or where they go. However, we can see the effects of them when they interact with the physical world. This is why they are figuratively called winds, or spirits, they have some of the same qualities as wind. In this passage from John the words wind and Spirit are the same Greek word, pneuma. The translators have indicated two different things here, but Jesus' hearers, and John's readers only saw or heard one word, wind. They had to understand what the passage meant. In our translations the translators has taken it upon themselves to determine what Jesus meant and tell us what He said, rather than letting us read it and figure it out ourselves. That's not a big problem unless the translator misunderstands the passage. How would we understand the passage as one of the original readers/hearers?

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the wind.

Concerning the soul, it ceases to exist as it's two components have separated. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It is used concretely of a living being, and abstractly of life. It is also translated life in the Bible.

Regarding 2 Cor. 5, I'll have to address that a little later. It's a bit more involved than I have time for at the moment. Let me just say that the passage is about the Resurrection. It actually begins in chapter 4. Also, remember that Paul refers to the Church as the body. He calls it the body of Christ.

Regarding the one who blasphemes, I think it does make sense. Aionios is the adjective form of aion. It's the same word it's just inflected. the "ios" on the end makes it an adjective. English has words that do this too. Look at the word spirit. It is a noun. The word Spiritual, is just spirit with "ual" on the end. The "ual" turns the noun into an adjective. Spirit and spiritual have the same meaning they are just used differently in a sentence. The noun is a spirit, the adjective means having qualities of the spirit, or qualities of the noun. 

I know the dictionaries give aion a meaning of unending or eternal but that just doesn't fit what we see in the Scriptures. Jesus, the apostles, and Paul, all spoke of the end of the aion. If it ends it's not unending or eternal. One thing we have to remember is that the people who write these works have a belief system that influences these works.

End times isn't my strong suit. I do believe that this age ends when Christ returns. Jesus promised the aionios life in the age to come so I would think that the Lake of Fire would be at the end of this age.

We seem to be going around in circles as you are not even addressing what I post in some parts.  Take your continued usage of aion.  Twice I have shown you that this is the incorrect word used in Mark 3:29, yet you ignore what I post.  Why is that?  Here, allow me to show you for the third time.

But ^G1161 he ^G3739 that ^G302 shall blaspheme ^G987 against ^G1519 the Holy ^G40 Ghost ^G4151 hath ^G2192 never ^{G3756 G1519 G165} forgiveness, ^G859 but ^G235 is ^G2076 in danger ^G1777 of eternal ^G166 damnation: ^G2920

Notice that eternal is G166, not G 165.  Here is the first time I posted this for you.

On 6/28/2020 at 12:24 PM, OneLight said:

Allow me to ask another question.  If the lost do not live for eternity, how is it that those who blaspheme "against His Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:29).  Eternal, in this case, is aiōnios G166 -

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

As for the word spirit goes, that is G4151,

spirit pneuma G4151 πνεῦμα

1. the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
   1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the "Holy" Spirit)
   2. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
   3. never referred to as a depersonalised force
2. the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
   1. the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
   2. the soul
3. a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
   1. a life giving spirit
   2. a human soul that has left the body
   3. a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
      1. used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
      2. the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4. the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
   1. the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5. a movement of air (a gentle blast)
   1. of the wind, hence the wind itself
   2. breath of nostrils or mouth

There seems to be more than one usage of the word spirit, don't you agree  It also seems to me you are also incorrect here as it can mean a person.  In my Greek dictionary that are 6 double column pages for this word.  That sure is a lot of explaining for just one meaning.  I can type it all out for you, but I doubt you would read it all. 

 

[Alive]

@OneLightA study of the text shows clearly that aion is used in several ways and applications as a period of time.

Here are just a few that illustrate this.

Matt. 12:32 And whoever speaks a word ^kagainst the Son of Man ^lwill be forgiven, but ^jwhoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in ^mthis age or in the age to come.

Matt. 13:22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but ^rthe cares of ^sthe world and ^tthe deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

Matt. 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. ^mThe harvest is ⁿthe end of the age, and the reapers are angels. ⁴⁰ Just as the weeds ^oare gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at ⁿthe end of the age.

Matt. 13:49 So it will be at ^ethe end of the age. The angels will come out and ^fseparate the evil from the righteous

Matt. 24:3   As he sat on ^vthe Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him ^wprivately, saying, “Tell us, ^xwhen will these things be, and what will be the sign of your ^ycoming and of ^zthe end of the age?”

And in the following verse we have two words that are relevant to the topic--it seems to me.

John 10:28 ^oI give them eternal life, and ^pthey will never perish, and ^qno one will snatch them out of my hand.

Words translated as eternal, never and perish. Here eternal and never are indicating a forever enduring and perish juxtaposed against that as the following:

 

G660 | S G622   ἀπόλλυμι   apollymi   90x  

to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; to lose, be deprived of, Mt. 10:42; to be destroyed, perish, Mt. 9:17; to be put to death, to die, Mt. 26:52; to be lost, to stray, Mt. 10:6 → destroy; lose; perish.

Note that there is nothing in that language that suggest an ongoing experience of any kind; rather an ending.

Consider that death is the wages of sin and without Christ, a final death will be the destiny of an individual--would not that death--that punishment--be eternal in scope.

Once that final death is experienced by an individual, there is no coming back. It is eternal...age enduring.

So what do you think about that word 'perish'?

[OneLight]

9 minutes ago, Alive said:

@OneLightA study of the text shows clearly that aion is used in several ways and applications as a period of time.

Here are just a few that illustrate this.

Matt. 12:32 And whoever speaks a word ^kagainst the Son of Man ^lwill be forgiven, but ^jwhoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in ^mthis age or in the age to come.

Matt. 13:22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but ^rthe cares of ^sthe world and ^tthe deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

Matt. 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. ^mThe harvest is ⁿthe end of the age, and the reapers are angels. ⁴⁰ Just as the weeds ^oare gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at ⁿthe end of the age.

Matt. 13:49 So it will be at ^ethe end of the age. The angels will come out and ^fseparate the evil from the righteous

Matt. 24:3   As he sat on ^vthe Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him ^wprivately, saying, “Tell us, ^xwhen will these things be, and what will be the sign of your ^ycoming and of ^zthe end of the age?”

And in the following verse we have two words that are relevant to the topic--it seems to me.

John 10:28 ^oI give them eternal life, and ^pthey will never perish, and ^qno one will snatch them out of my hand.

Words translated as eternal, never and perish. Here eternal and never are indicating a forever enduring and perish juxtaposed against that as the following:

 

G660 | S G622   ἀπόλλυμι   apollymi   90x  

to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; to lose, be deprived of, Mt. 10:42; to be destroyed, perish, Mt. 9:17; to be put to death, to die, Mt. 26:52; to be lost, to stray, Mt. 10:6 → destroy; lose; perish.

Note that there is nothing in that language that suggest an ongoing experience of any kind; rather an ending.

Consider that death is the wages of sin and without Christ, a final death will be the destiny of an individual--would not that death--that punishment--be eternal in scope.

Once that final death is experienced by an individual, there is no coming back. It is eternal...age enduring.

So what do you think about that word 'perish'?

What about Revelation 20:10, which is what I was asking about as I was told "for ever and ever" meant an age.  I asked which age would that be?  It has to be the age of eternity as this was said after the 1000 year reign of Christ.  I also was talking about Mark 3:29 where the word is not aion (G165), but aiōnios (G166).

Would you like to discuss these?

[Alive]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

What about Revelation 20:10, which is what I was asking about as I was told "for ever and ever" meant an age.  I asked which age would that be?  It has to be the age of eternity as this was said after the 1000 year reign of Christ.  I also was talking about Mark 3:29 where the word is not aion (G165), but aiōnios (G166).

Would you like to discuss these?

First off---I am not language scholar, but I do have tools at my disposal. I do believe that both in Rev 20.10 and Mark 3.29 the language implies what we commonly understand as eternity. I think that the language and meaning in Rev is symbolic as is much of that book and that the Lake of Fire is symbolic of judgement and purifying.

Those characters are going to be removed from God's New Heaven and Earth. In both cases, Rev and Mark, the punishment is eternal. Is it possible that in Rev. the torment is the punishment of removal and in Mark, the condemnation (perishing) is also eternal? I am repeating my argument in my previous post.

[OneLight]

29 minutes ago, Alive said:

First off---I am not language scholar, but I do have tools at my disposal. I do believe that both in Rev 20.10 and Mark 3.29 the language implies what we commonly understand as eternity. I think that the language and meaning in Rev is symbolic as is much of that book and that the Lake of Fire is symbolic of judgement and purifying.

Those characters are going to be removed from God's New Heaven and Earth. In both cases, Rev and Mark, the punishment is eternal. Is it possible that in Rev. the torment is the punishment of removal and in Mark, the condemnation (perishing) is also eternal? I am repeating my argument in my previous post.

How a word is used determines the meaning of a statement.  It is important.  Without understanding the meaning of the words being used, false understanding can develop.  This is why we have the tools to use, is it not?  Otherwise, everyone is correct in their personal understanding ... what then is truth?

[Alive]

21 minutes ago, OneLight said:

How a word is used determines the meaning of a statement.  It is important.  Without understanding the meaning of the words being used, false understanding can develop.  This is why we have the tools to use, is it not?  Otherwise, everyone is correct in their personal understanding ... what then is truth?

Yes of course----'to perish' is an eternal thing. That state 'having been perished' has no end to it.

We that are in Christ have 'eternal life'--those that are found outside of Christ in the end will not have eternal life. They will have eternal death. They will perish.

[enoob57]

people wish to think it is cessation of conscious torment.... but it is not Lazarus and the rich man...

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

people wish to think it is cessation of conscious torment.... but it is not Lazarus and the rich man...

That is one parable in the middle of a large book.

[enoob57]

Just now, Alive said:

That is one parable in the middle of a large book.

I don't believe it to be a parable but never the less as there is only truth in The Lord all things said parable or no are true...

[OneLight]

30 minutes ago, Alive said:

Yes of course----'to perish' is an eternal thing. That state 'having been perished' has no end to it.

We that are in Christ have 'eternal life'--those that are found outside of Christ in the end will not have eternal life. They will have eternal death. They will perish.

I'm not a fan of eternal punishment either, but I have not found one scripture that indicates this is not the case.  God is a God of righteous judgment and who are we to question Him?  If what happened in the OT happened today, the world would cry feverishly against killing women, children, and every living creature of a tribe or people, but God did this anyway.   When God brought the flood, He removed every single living person outside of those on the arc.  It may not be what humans would like to accept, but history tells us it is what happened, and since God does not change, who are we to say eternal judgment is not forever, be it the spirit is alive or if the spirit ceases to exist, it is forever.  We will ust have to wait and see.