Lawlessness Increasing

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

Paul has it as rapture then wrath, not the other way around.

As do I the rapture happens and the wrath of God begins. my beliefs are "Pre-Wrath". Plagues do not equal wrath, a Plague is intended to draw one to repentance Wrath is punishment for the lack of repentance.And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21)

That is the sixth trumpet being discussed. Then we have the decree of judgment (chapter 10, The seven thunders) as well as the rapture (10:7), followed by the finishing up of the two witnesses who have also brought plagues followed by the Wrath of God. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18) 

[iamlamad]

Just now, dhchristian said:

As do I the rapture happens and the wrath of God begins. my beliefs are "Pre-Wrath". Plagues do not equal wrath, a Plague is intended to draw one to repentance Wrath is punishment for the lack of repentance.And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21)

That is the sixth trumpet being discussed. Then we have the decree of judgment (chapter 10, The seven thunders) as well as the rapture (10:7), followed by the finishing up of the two witnesses who have also brought plagues followed by the Wrath of God. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. (Rev. 11:18) 

I would Much rather believe John, who always told the truth. the truth here is that each plague comes with a vial and the vial is filled with the wrath of God. So truth is, one CANNOT separate a plague from wrath. You are using human reasoning that has failed. 

I could point out that John saw the raptured church in chapter 7; but since you are free in your thinking to just rearrange what is written to fit your theory, I will decline. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I would Much rather believe John, who always told the truth. the truth here is that each plague comes with a vial and the vial is filled with the wrath of God. So truth is, one CANNOT separate a plague from wrath. You are using human reasoning that has failed. 

And I could point you again to revelation 11:18 which clearly states "Thy Wrath is come" Which is the beginning of the Wrath of God. Curiously, the only other place before this in revelation where wrath is mentioned is during the sixth seal, and that is the Wrath of the Lamb. Judgement begins at the house of God as Peter speaks of  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?(1 Peter 4:17-18)

You see they are closely linked, the wrath of the Lamb is a judgment of the church, the wrath of God a Judgment of the World. The wrath of the Lamb involves the rapture to the overcomers, but no escape for the false converts. Both are simultaneous events. So Yes, the great multitude in chapter 7 is raptured, and this is also the same thing we see in Rev. 10:7, meaning this proves there is overlap there, if you only had eyes to see this.... You see you have your pet doctrine of the pre-trib rapture ingrained in your thinking process and cannot let go of this and reason with another person with a different perspective.... this in itself is a problem within the prophecy people that prevents the Unity of the Spirit from occurring which is so vital to the end time outpouring of the Spirit... Too much Pride and inability to admit error and give glory to God instead of glory to one's own pet theories... 

I Write this because I have considered all the view points whether, pre, post or mid trib raptures, and see them all as having a part right, for we all "Know in Part" as Paul Spoke of, when we come together in unity we will come to the conclusion that is True. This is why I do not denounce the pre-trib rapture, as I think for new converts this is the best doctrine to teach them, which keeps their mind on the Blessed hope and  immanency. Most Post tribbers see the rapture at the seventh trumpet, which I agree with but this is just the middle of the final week, as this is when the Wrath of God Begins. 

Just think about this. Imagine if we all could come together and agree with one another, Pre trib, mid trib and post trib.... What a testimony that would be. Even the partial preterist can join in this concept, Just like your understanding of the seals is much in line with their theories as well. While the world is falling apart around us, We, the church are coming together in Unity under the head which is Christ Jesus.  

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:13-16)

[RonaldBruno]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you are right about everything and I am wrong about everything, just as you think. So sorry to disagree.

Lol. I don't think I have it all figured out and I know you don't either. We are righteous in God's eyes. Peace.

[RonaldBruno]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

To make this white horse and rider the Antichrist or Satan is error about 2000 years off from truth.

Oh boy, are you gonna let me go? I already made that point, that between verses 4 and 5 in Chapter 5 we see pre - death and resurrection and post death and resurrection.

And I already made the point that the scroll was opened long ago and nothing happened, it just is a play book of events that will happen shortly.

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Did you notice that in 6:8 that "power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth."  Is Satan limited to one fourth part of the earth? You know he is not: he is god over this entire planet. 

 Let's examine the verse.

A Pale Horse, followed by Death and Hades and power was given to THEM over 1/4 of the earth to kill SPECIFICALLY BY SWORD (war), famine, and beasts of the earth. So the verse DOES NOT MENTION SATAN, IT IS THE ANGEL of Death.

Listen,  many have wrestled over the white horsemen, some scholars thinking it is Christ conquering with the gospel. No, he wears only ONE DIADEM, goes out to conquer. He is in the company of three ither destructive angels - would Christ be riding with them. Besides, Christ has already conquered sin and His gospel has been spread with love, He doesn't conquer our salvation.

Christ appears later wit many crowns, not one. So really this is the counterfeit Antichrist released, with only a short time to conquer with his wrecking crew.

 

[RonaldBruno]

3 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:13-16)

We are unifies in our faith that Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day. We are unifies with who He is and what He has done. There is much in scripture that we can know, it's just that topics like eschatology, are not so clear. But the Body of Christ is right on track. None have been or will be lost who are written in the book of life. God factors all our blunders into His perfect plan - we cant mess it up, it's a guarantee.

Sin still taints our walk, pride as well. Imagine if a pastor teaches one view for 30 years to 100k people and the GT comes and  he realizes he is wrong? No worries, he'll get over it. CHRIST already forgave him.

[iamlamad]

36 minutes ago, RonaldBruno said:

Oh boy, are you gonna let me go? I already made that point, that between verses 4 and 5 in Chapter 5 we see pre - death and resurrection and post death and resurrection.

And I already made the point that the scroll was opened long ago and nothing happened, it just is a play book of events that will happen shortly.

 Let's examine the verse.

A Pale Horse, followed by Death and Hades and power was given to THEM over 1/4 of the earth to kill SPECIFICALLY BY SWORD (war), famine, and beasts of the earth. So the verse DOES NOT MENTION SATAN, IT IS THE ANGEL of Death.

Listen,  many have wrestled over the white horsemen, some scholars thinking it is Christ conquering with the gospel. No, he wears only ONE DIADEM, goes out to conquer. He is in the company of three ither destructive angels - would Christ be riding with them. Besides, Christ has already conquered sin and His gospel has been spread with love, He doesn't conquer our salvation.

Christ appears later wit many crowns, not one. So really this is the counterfeit Antichrist released, with only a short time to conquer with his wrecking crew.

 

Here we go again: Yes, the seals were opened, that is up to seal five, but things DID happen. First, the CHURCH was sent out with the gospel.

Next, over the centuries the devil has tried to stop the advance of the gospel by using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. But as I said, they were limited in where they could operate: the 1/4 of the earth that includes Jerusalem where the gospel started. We have seen two world wars start there. There was at least twice that the Black Plague struck there. (In that 1/4.) We have seen famine after famine. As soon as Jesus opened seals 2 through 4, it was legal for the devil to try and stop the gospel. Just reading about the life of Paul, we can see that the devil did his best.  As you know, many have died taking the gospel to knew places.

Why would would anyone write that "nothing happened?" How many martyrs are there at seal 5 now? I would guess millions - perhaps many millions.  How they could anyone think "nothing happened." 

So the verse DOES NOT MENTION SATAN, IT IS THE ANGEL of Death.  Do you imagine any of God's angels would fight tooth and nail to try and stop the gospel?  Every good gift comes from God. It is Satan that comes to kill, steal, and destroy. I will agree, wars kill. Famines kill. Pestilence kills. All Satan's work. What to most missionaries do when war breaks out? They head quickly for home! Same for pestilence or famine. God has allowed Satan to use these to attempt to stop the advance of the gospel. Why? Because Satan is the god of this world. What other choice would God have had?

He is in the company of three ither destructive angels   Do you not read what I write? The white horse does NOT ride with the others. They ride together leaving the white out.  Don't take my word for it, go back and read it again: Power was given unto THEM: so try and find that white horse among "them." He is not with "them." 

would Christ be riding with them.   He doesn't: the white horse rides alone. The church was sent out, as sheep among wolves. Paul prayed and prayed to be free from the wolves, but God just said that His grace was sufficient. And the church age has proven it.

He doesn't conquer our salvation.  Oh my! What had to be conquered (and still does) is principalities and powers: demonic powers that control different areas of the world. Daniel shows us this spiritual warfare. 

His gospel has been spread with love  And a  WHOLE LOT of prayer and conquering and overcoming principalities and powers.

Christ appears later wit many crowns, not one. It is NOT Christ, it is the CHURCH, and there will end up being many crowns. 

So really this is the counterfeit Antichrist released  I gave you seven solid scriptural reasons why this is not true. I am sure you will continue to ignore all 7 and hold to your believe with no scriptural backing. 

Try answering the three questions Jesus asked me:

Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4?”

John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, dhchristian said:

And I could point you again to revelation 11:18 which clearly states "Thy Wrath is come" Which is the beginning of the Wrath of God. Curiously, the only other place before this in revelation where wrath is mentioned is during the sixth seal, and that is the Wrath of the Lamb. Judgement begins at the house of God as Peter speaks of  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?(1 Peter 4:17-18)

 

The wrath of the Lamb involves the rapture to the overcomers, but no escape for the false converts. Both are simultaneous events. So Yes, the great multitude in chapter 7 is raptured, and this is also the same thing we see in Rev. 10:7, meaning this proves there is overlap there, if you only had eyes to see this.... You see you have your pet doctrine of the pre-trib rapture ingrained in your thinking process and cannot let go of this and reason with another person with a different perspective.... this in itself is a problem within the prophecy people that prevents the Unity of the Spirit from occurring which is so vital to the end time outpouring of the Spirit... Too much Pride and inability to admit error and give glory to God instead of glory to one's own pet theories... 

I Write this because I have considered all the view points whether, pre, post or mid trib raptures, and see them all as having a part right, for we all "Know in Part" as Paul Spoke of, when we come together in unity we will come to the conclusion that is True. This is why I do not denounce the pre-trib rapture, as I think for new converts this is the best doctrine to teach them, which keeps their mind on the Blessed hope and  immanency. Most Post tribbers see the rapture at the seventh trumpet, which I agree with but this is just the middle of the final week, as this is when the Wrath of God Begins. 

Just think about this. Imagine if we all could come together and agree with one another, Pre trib, mid trib and post trib.... What a testimony that would be. Even the partial preterist can join in this concept, Just like your understanding of the seals is much in line with their theories as well. While the world is falling apart around us, We, the church are coming together in Unity under the head which is Christ Jesus.  

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:13-16)

during the sixth seal, and that is the Wrath of the Lamb.   Sorry, but it is the start of the DAY of His wrath, or the Day of the Lord, which would certainly include God the Father's wrath. Anyway, I think if the Lamb has wrath, the Father has wrath, and if the Father has wrath, the Son has wrath. 

16...hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I think the Day of the Lord will see BOTH God the Father and the SON will have wrath

I cannot go any farther.  I stick very closely to what is written. I still am convinced, ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation (as yours does) is going to be proven wrong. Remember "plane" geometry? That is Revelation in a nutshell: John takes the reader on a straight walk through time, as much as is possible. Forget your three dimensions - it is myth. This is a SIMPLE book. John starts this walk through time when the book is still in the hand of the Father, before Christ rose from the dead, and continued through time to where we are now and then into our future. 

First John tells us of the book with seals: written without and within, then opens the seals one by one, until all seven are opened for the express purpose of getting the BOOK open to reveal the 7th week, written inside the book. The john takes us straight through the 70th week, event after event in chronological order, but using parentheses and on occasion prophecy spoken by the 24 elders. 

I can assure all readers, of Pre trib, mid trib and post trib...There is only ONE that is truth concerning the church. If one just considered the character of God and His grace and mercy, they would not have to search the Scriptures to KNOW God will not beat up His bride. He has an escape plan.  And if one does search with no preconceived glasses, they can find that escape plan. God did not hide it!

You see you have your pet doctrine of the pre-trib   Sorry, but is is God's pet doctrine: He caused Paul to write it! All I do is plagiarize Paul!

[BorderCowboy]

On 6/1/2020 at 3:25 AM, BrandonLee said:

Pandemic + unemployment + unpaid bills, rents, etc. + eviction notice + social isolation / distancing + businesses closed + racial tension (Asians) + police brutality (blacks) + promotion of  white supremacy = Take cover and pray.

The nations of the Earth stand in bewilderment of what is happening to America.

Promotion of white supremacy? I don't see that takin' place. Your scource??

[dhchristian]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but is is God's pet doctrine: He caused Paul to write it! All I do is plagiarize Paul!

Sorry, But I must have missed that teaching on the pretrib rapture by Paul? Was it 1 cor. 15? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How about 1 thess. 4? For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

How about 2 Thess 2? Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Actually, here we see the abomination coming FIRST.... And later.... And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:...

So when the LORD comes he will destroy the man of sin and rapture the church.... this is simple logic. 

So which verse is it that Paul says we will be raptured pre-trib that you are plagiarizing? I Can't seem to find it.