A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 6/9/2020 at 12:42 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/5/2020 at 5:47 PM, not an echo said:

So, according to Scripture, when will Christ return for the rapture of His Church?

 

Revelation 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Hello wingnut,

I'm taking it that you are seeing Jesus' statement here as indicating that it is at this specific time that He will come like a thief.  On the surface, I can see where some may think this.  What causes me to think otherwise is that this statement of Jesus is found after six vials of God's wrath have just been poured out (Rev. 16:1-14), not to mention everything else that has happened leading up to this time.

Jesus likened the day of His return for the Church to the days of Noah.  For this return to happen after six of the vials of wrath have been poured out would be tantamount to God not having Noah to board the ark until near the end of the flood.

So, how do I take Jesus' statement here?  Consider if the commander of one of our foreign military installations received intelligence that plans were in the making by the enemy to attack the fort, but that the soldiers will be airlifted out  just before this happens.  The soldiers are informed to be ever poised and ready, for the exact time of their departure is considered to be classified information.  Later, if the commander gives a briefing concerning the details of the actual planned attack, if he pauses near the end of these details and says to the soldiers, "Now guys, make sure you are constantly ready to gear up and go,"  would he be indicating that it will be well into the attack before they will be airlifted out?  No.  He would merely be reinforcing the importance of their being ever ready to be airlifted.  They've done been told that they will be airlifted before the attack.

[douggg]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

So, the great tribulation spoken of in Rev. 7:14 could be what the Church has so long been through.

Don't think so.   The great tribulation is triggered when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place.  If the great tribulation not cut short, i.e. of the end result, no flesh on earth will survive.   

Okay, that is not talking about the persecution of the church in different places and different times over the last 200o years.     

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by douggg

[wingnut-]

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm taking it that you are seeing Jesus' statement here as indicating that it is at this specific time that He will come like a thief.

 

Yes, I tend to accept scripture as it is written, and the verse in question is not vague.

 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

Jesus likened the day of His return for the Church to the days of Noah.

 

Not exactly, He likened the conditions at His coming to the days of Noah.

 

Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

13 hours ago, not an echo said:

So, how do I take Jesus' statement here?  Consider if the commander of one of our foreign military installations received intelligence that plans were in the making by the enemy to attack the fort, but that the soldiers will be airlifted out  just before this happens.  The soldiers are informed to be ever poised and ready, for the exact time of their departure is considered to be classified information.  Later, if the commander gives a briefing concerning the details of the actual planned attack, if he pauses near the end of these details and says to the soldiers, "Now guys, make sure you are constantly ready to gear up and go,"  would he be indicating that it will be well into the attack before they will be airlifted out?  No.  He would merely be reinforcing the importance of their being ever ready to be airlifted.  They've done been told that they will be airlifted before the attack.

 

Probably not the best analogy, considering the vast majority of exfil's are done under duress.  The idea of an exfil is to remove units from a hostile territory and relocate them in a friendly zone.  Soldiers would only take what they can carry with them and blow the rest in place so as not to leave supplies for the enemy.

The larger issue with your theory here is the entire concept of preparedness for a believer to depart.  You are aware that you when you leave this world you won't be taking anything with you, correct?  Assuming your answer is yes to that question, then what one needs to ask themselves is exactly what is required for a believer to "go to heaven".  According to scripture, one needs to have faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, which is accompanied by the seal of the Holy Spirit.  Since I already have that covered, then it begs the question as to why all the admonitions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc. ?

 

[not an echo]

On 6/15/2020 at 3:53 AM, douggg said:

On 6/14/2020 at 9:24 PM, not an echo said:

So, the great tribulation spoken of in Rev. 7:14 could be what the Church has so long been through.

Don't think so.   The great tribulation is triggered when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place.  If the great tribulation not cut short, i.e. of the end result, no flesh on earth will survive.   

Okay, that is not talking about the persecution of the church in different places and different times over the last 200o years.   

Do realize that in my sentence that you respond to, my statement concerning "great tribulation" is not in reference to Daniel's 70th Week, but to great tribulation like Stephen referred to in Acts 7:11.  If Stephen used the phrase megas thlipsis (translated "great affliction" in the KJV) to describe what the land of Egypt and Canaan went through in the days of famine when Joseph was governor in Egypt and his family came to him for corn, then we must be careful not to always pigeonhole great tribulation as Daniel's 70th Week.  I think of Peter's words, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you, But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings;  that, when His glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (I Pet. 4:12-13).  My observation has been that most of God's children would freely acknowledge that they have experienced fiery trials in their life, or times of great tribulation.  What about you douggg?  When I think of the Church as a whole, and what all it has experienced since the time of the apostles, I see the elder's statement as most appropriate, "These are they which came out of great tribulation..." (Rev. 7:14).

On your last sentence, not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion---scripturally.  Also, whereas this may be happening in different places, I submit that it is happening all the time.  I'm see the horsemen as riding all the time---just not at all times conspicuous. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by not an echo

[douggg]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

When I think of the Church as a whole, and what all it has experienced since the time of the apostles, I see the elder's statement as most appropriate, "These are they which came out of great tribulation..." (Rev. 7:14).

Seems to me to be a rather oblique argument that them in Revelation 7 are all Christians down through the 2000 years of the church,   given that in Revelation 20:4-5, them who were martyred during the great tribulation -as described by Jesus that if not shortened no flesh would survive -  have their bodies resurrected.

All flesh was not at risk of not surviving during the generations during the period which you are alternatively calling great tribulation.

 

 

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:01 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/14/2020 at 10:52 PM, not an echo said:

I'm taking it that you are seeing Jesus' statement here as indicating that it is at this specific time that He will come like a thief.

 

Yes, I tend to accept scripture as it is written, and the verse in question is not vague.

Hello wingnut-,

I have the same tendency, and I agree that the verse in question is not vague, but is it an indicator of the chronology of last day's events?  If it is, this would indicate that the rapture is occurring after six of the seven vials of God's wrath have been poured out.  Do you see any conflict with this and other Scripture?

On 6/15/2020 at 1:01 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/14/2020 at 10:52 PM, not an echo said:

Jesus likened the day of His return for the Church to the days of Noah.

 

Not exactly, He likened the conditions at His coming to the days of Noah.

 

Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

But wingnut-, one of these conditions was that the flood had not yet come.

Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

[not an echo]

On 6/15/2020 at 1:01 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/14/2020 at 10:52 PM, not an echo said:

So, how do I take Jesus' statement here?  Consider if the commander of one of our foreign military installations received intelligence that plans were in the making by the enemy to attack the fort, but that the soldiers will be airlifted out  just before this happens.  The soldiers are informed to be ever poised and ready, for the exact time of their departure is considered to be classified information.  Later, if the commander gives a briefing concerning the details of the actual planned attack, if he pauses near the end of these details and says to the soldiers, "Now guys, make sure you are constantly ready to gear up and go,"  would he be indicating that it will be well into the attack before they will be airlifted out?  No.  He would merely be reinforcing the importance of their being ever ready to be airlifted.  They've done been told that they will be airlifted before the attack.

 

Probably not the best analogy, considering the vast majority of exfil's are done under duress.  The idea of an exfil is to remove units from a hostile territory and relocate them in a friendly zone.  Soldiers would only take what they can carry with them and blow the rest in place so as not to leave supplies for the enemy.

The larger issue with your theory here is the entire concept of preparedness for a believer to depart.  You are aware that you when you leave this world you won't be taking anything with you, correct?  Assuming your answer is yes to that question, then what one needs to ask themselves is exactly what is required for a believer to "go to heaven".  According to scripture, one needs to have faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, which is accompanied by the seal of the Holy Spirit.  Since I already have that covered, then it begs the question as to why all the admonitions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc. ?

I'm thinking that you may have missed the main point of my illustration.  Consider if while I am out of state, I learn that a really bad storm is forecast for my hometown.  I call home to tell the wife that I am making arrangements to come before the storm begins, to pick her and the son up so we can all be together in a safe place.  If I call later and tell the wife concerning more of the details of the big storm, if I pause near the end of the details and tell her, "Now honey, ya'll make sure to be ready to go,"  would I be indicating to her that the storm will be well underway before I get there to pick them up?  No.  I would be merely reinforcing the importance of their being ready to go.  I've done told her that I will be picking them up before the storm begins.  For me wingnut-, when I consider what Scripture says about the coming storm and the importance of being ready for the escape, it's easy for me to see Jesus' words in Revelation 16:15 as being a mere reinforcement to the readers of the need to be always ready to go---not a chronological indicator that He will be coming as a thief just before the end of the storm.

Concerning your last paragraph, I perceive that we will be on the same page, as I definitely believe that my only hope for Heaven is what God did for me through Jesus Christ on the cross at Calvary.  I like to say it this way, "There is nothing one can add to grace and it still be grace, except it be gratitude."  I am, however, a little curious over your last sentence, "Since I already have that covered, then it begs the question as to why all the admonitions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc. ?"  I'm kinda thinking that perhaps it is something that I said that spurred this, but the Bible is replete with such admonitions as well.  There is a very important reason for these admonitions, as I see things.  Kinda interested in what you see the reason being.  I am already looking forward to sharing what I see the reason being---as it is rare that it is seen. 

Edited June 27, 2020 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

Hello not an echo,

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

I have the same tendency, and I agree that the verse in question is not vague, but is it an indicator of the chronology of last day's events?

 

There is no other reason for John to record it there, other than that is when it was spoken.  Unlike the surrounding material, John is quoting something he heard at that point in time of the vision.  The most accurate chronology we have in scripture comes from Jesus in Matthew 24, and what John presents aligns with that exactly.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

If it is, this would indicate that the rapture is occurring after six of the seven vials of God's wrath have been poured out.  Do you see any conflict with this and other Scripture?

 

I do not.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Matthew 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

But wingnut-, one of these conditions was that the flood had not yet come.

 

That's exactly my point, all these things that were going on, life as usual, were occurring before the flood had come.  The day Noah entered the ark, life as usual stopped, it will be the same at His coming.  It is not some slow process, as Paul tells us it is sudden destruction, as was the flood, because it wasn't the rain from above that caught them by surprise, it was the water that came from below.

 

I Thessalonians 5:3  While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

For me wingnut-, when I consider what Scripture says about the coming storm and the importance of being ready for the escape, it's easy for me to see Jesus' words in Revelation 16:15 as being a mere reinforcement to the readers of the need to be always ready to go

 

Ok, but again we are running into the same issue, in which you agreed with me previously.  If it were in fact an escape, then every person who is born again is already "ready to go".  Now it sounds to me like we are in agreement on the matter of eternal security, at least as far as God will not forsake us, and on that basis there is nothing more we need to do to be received by Him.  This fact solidifies that we are preparing for something else, and all the admonitions in scripture to be alert and/or sober point to something other than an escape. 

 

16 hours ago, not an echo said:

I am, however, a little curious over your last sentence, "Since I already have that covered, then it begs the question as to why all the admonitions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc. ?"  I'm kinda thinking that perhaps it is something that I said that spurred this, but the Bible is replete with such admonitions as well.  There is a very important reason for these admonitions, as I see things.  Kinda interested in what you see the reason being.

 

No my friend, it wasn't something you said, I am referring to all the scriptures that speak to these things, which I agree are very important.  The reason we are given the instructions to be prepared, alert, sober, etc., is because the church has suffered persecution from its foundation up to the present time, and it will continue until the end.  When the beast begins his 3 1/2 year reign, it will touch the entire church, not just those in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia.

[not an echo]

On 6/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/17/2020 at 11:27 AM, not an echo said:

I have the same tendency, and I agree that the verse in question is not vague, but is it an indicator of the chronology of last day's events?

 

There is no other reason for John to record it there, other than that is when it was spoken.  Unlike the surrounding material, John is quoting something he heard at that point in time of the vision.  The most accurate chronology we have in scripture comes from Jesus in Matthew 24, and what John presents aligns with that exactly.

Hello wingnut-,

Not sure how far along I will be able to get tonight, but maybe a few thoughts.

I would certainly agree with you that John recorded it here (Rev. 16:15-16) because it was spoken here, but because of other things that are written, I feel very strongly that this should be seen as a reinforcement for readers of the importance of being ready.  Of course, if one is saved, he is ready as far as salvation is concerned, but we know that everyone that thinks he or she is saved is not.  Paul said, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith..." (II Cor. 13:5).  All that think they are ready may not be.

And some who are genuinely saved are not really ready.  What do I mean?  I submit that any of God's children that are not disciples of His are not really ready.  Again, what do I mean??  I think of myself when, even as a child of God, I was caught up in the things of the world.  If Christ had come at that time in my life for the rapture of the Church, I surely believe that I would have found myself ashamed in His presence.  I think of John's admonition to believers, "And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.  Ashamed?  A child of God, but ashamed?  Entering the Portals of Glory, but ashamed?  What is John getting at, and again, what do I mean???

Very simply, many have no concept of God's purpose for their life and His desire for them to walk with Him and endeavor by His strength to make a difference for His cause and the eternal sake of others---and they are not even concerning themselves over the matter.  This used to be me.  But now I understand somewhat more.  Now I understand that one day I will stand before Him and give an account of myself to Him.  Now here's the concern...*(Well wingnut-, my son just needed to talk with me, and my time was already getting away.  I think that the following may convey my concern for the time.  Hope you understand.  This is part of my statement of faith---copied and pasted---from my thread in the Testimonies section of the forum, entitled My Testimony and More.  For me, understanding this has been a key to understanding some other Bible teachings that many have struggled with.)  Consider carefully... 

I BELIEVE that when Christ comes again, He will rule and reign upon this earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords---for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-6).  During this time, God will fulfill His covenant promises to the Israelite nation, and Christians will experience the rewards of their faithfulness to Christ.  Realize, the estate of God's children in Heaven is a gift of God, and will be equal for all, for all of eternity, as reflected in Revelation chapters 21-22.  But, the estate of God's children during Christ's Millennial Reign will vary greatly, for it is a reward, based upon what we have done for God's Kingdom purposes in this life, as reflected in Jesus' parables of the talents (Matt. 25:14-23ff), and the pounds (Lk. 19:11-19ff), and Paul's words concerning rewards (I Cor. 3:12-15).  In my concept of what Scripture teaches, all of God's children during Christ's Reign will have it far better than anyone in this present experience of life---but there is a concern.  Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the lost at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about.

Got to go...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Not sure how far along I will be able to get tonight, but maybe a few thoughts.

 

No worries brother, I'm in no hurry.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, if one is saved, he is ready as far as salvation is concerned, but we know that everyone that thinks he or she is saved is not.  Paul said, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith..." (II Cor. 13:5).  All that think they are ready may not be.

 

II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.

 

In the context of the passage, Paul begins by pointing out that there were members in this church that were not bearing fruit.

 

II Corinthians 13: 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.

 

So what Paul addresses here is an issue of not turning from sin, and that these members apparently not only continued in their sin, but also called Paul's teachings into question in an effort to justify their sinful nature.  Not only is Paul challenging them to test the spirit in themselves, but to test the validity of his teachings against scripture to determine whether his message comes from God or not.  Personally, I disagree that people are not aware of whom they serve.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

And some who are genuinely saved are not really ready.  What do I mean?  I submit that any of God's children that are not disciples of His are not really ready.  Again, what do I mean??  I think of myself when, even as a child of God, I was caught up in the things of the world.  If Christ had come at that time in my life for the rapture of the Church, I surely believe that I would have found myself ashamed in His presence.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, but to me what this sounds like is a works based salvation mentality mixing its way into your explanation.  I suspect that this does not reflect what you believe, but does warrant examination.  Typically when something like this occurs, what it reveals is a flaw in the conclusion.

In regards to being caught up in the world for a time, I would imagine that is something every believer has gone through at some point in time.  I spent my own season wandering in the wilderness, but I think the difference here is that when this occurs, a true child of God is not working against Him.  We may not be following Him as we should, but we are not in opposition to the faith, we're simply living in denial and justifying our misdeeds.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

I think of John's admonition to believers, "And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.  Ashamed?  A child of God, but ashamed?  Entering the Portals of Glory, but ashamed?  What is John getting at, and again, what do I mean???

 

I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

 

John clarifies his teaching quite well I think.  He states in closing, that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him, or in other words, is clothed with the Holy Spirit.  So the requirement remains consistent throughout scripture, the Holy Spirit is the guarantee.  The concept of being ashamed is a recurring theme associated with "nakedness" and/or not being clothed.  Scripture further clarifies that the clothing required is the Holy Spirit, also demonstrated in greater detail regarding the whole armor of God, which is spiritual armor.

Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there are only two types of children that God sees, children of light and children of the dark.  Saved and unsaved.  Believers and non-believers.  Whatever terminology one prefers to apply, the end result is the same.  One group is clothed, and the other is not.  One will be ashamed, and the other will not.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the lost at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about.

 

I would tend to disagree with your conclusions regarding this.  Considering the body is glorified, and the brain is part of the body, I would suggest that the thought process would reflect that glorification.  While I agree the enemy hasn't been destroyed yet, he is bound and has no influence until he is set free at the end of the thousand years.  If you remove the accuser of the brethren from the equation I don't see glorified beings suffering from guilt over sins that have been washed clean.  In our glorified state, we have been perfected, correct?

As far as rewards go, I have no expectations.  I'll be content if my service is cleaning stables, being in His presence is reward enough for me.  Considering we are all undeserving to begin with, you are correct, I spend no time considering the reward phase.